Aussie Group Sunday Game

[mike8472]

Hi Guys.

This is a thread for our sunday game. Make all posts in regards to the sunday game here. A list of rules is below and we can edit them as we need to.


HOUSE RULES Known bugs/exploits: If building province improvements (factories, infrastructure, land/sea forts etc) you may not use serial build, since all of these are sometimes completed simultaneously when rehosting. No use of 'ghost' units for capturing enemy provinces etc. No phoney wars (i.e. DOWing but not attacking). Annexation (or puppeting) must be done as soon as possible. Axis are not allowed to DOW nations under attack from the USSR.

Alliances: Italy and Japan may join the Axis whenever they choose to. Only historical alliances for the "Big 6" (USA can only join Allies, Italy and Japan can only join Axis, USSR can not join Allies or Axis etc). Any human minor country may join Aixs or Allies alliance at anytime they choose.

Political actions: You may not influence or puppet a nation controlled by a human player. The UK may not DOW Japan (this leads to the USA being able to join, see below). Axis nations may not DOW USSR puppets or other Commintern countries, they must DOW the USSR itself. War in Europe starts with Danzig event however if German belligerence allows it Allies may DOW. If Germany offers Russia full pact wether accepted or not Russia may not DOW on Germany till 1st January 1942. If Germany does not offer full pact Russia may DOW anytime. Italy may Join war anytime after Paris has fallen. Japan may enter Axis alliance at anytime but must DOW on the USA also. With a human French player Allies may not take military control of Poland.

Trade agreements: Allies and the USSR aren't allowed to break any starting trade agreements with Axis humans unless at war with this nation or through events (US oil embargo). No economic warfare....UK,USSR and USA may not trade for rares in the first month of the game. They can however trade them away. No economic warfare(ie trading for all rares or oil when not needed)

USA joining the war: The USA may not manually move the intervention slider. USA may not DOW on Japan before 1st January 1942 but may DOW on Germany if the Belligerence level of Germany allows it.


USA supporting other nations: Before the USA is part of the Allies they may only support other nations via events (Lend Lease). After the USA joins Allies they may freely support any Allies nation and the USSR (if the USSR is at war with Germany). This means no trades for resources or supplies till Allied or USSR is at war with germany.

Nuclear weapons: No nukes before 1945

Loading between sessions: Feel free to load up your own nation (and any puppets you control) and ponder your strategic situation between sessions. It is however not allowed to open up other player's nations.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

SO I have to read 2 new threads then

 

[unmerged(16810)]

No Way

Putting very strict restrictions on USA trade is a silly rule.

We will have a rule that the allies have to trade with the axis yet cant trade with countries which are on the same side :rofl: (even if not yet allied)

You got to be joking!

Lets not get into the old habit of restricting the Allied players options in the game again with silly rules.

If the USA player wishes to support the UK war effort so be it.

And the rule on the intervention slider isn,t needed as most players agree that entry too early by USA unbalances the game.

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[Majorball]

Nolan
The USA can support the Allies before they enter the war by Lend Lease events. This rule is designed to stop the USA supplying Russia and UK with heaps of supplies so they can use the extra IC for production. Its just to keep the game in balance. USA can still trade with any other AI country even Allied.

 

[mike8472]

Nolan, that rule was suggested by Major, as from his view the US can supply the USSR with supplies giving them even more IC to buildup forces even larger then they already are. I defered to major as he is the only player to have played both the US and USSR in MP games.

Remeber we created these rules as our newer players need them as guidance, it is at there insistance that we have written them down. Rules we may think are not needed as they are obvious may not be for our new players.

This is also a work in progress so as new situations arise we can amend the rules to suite the group and address problems.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

I like the rules, they are straight forward and common sense In this game I think you need to structure the way countres can be played to make sure the game lasts as long as possible.

 

[Gezeder]

Actually I think Nolan has a point,

Consider this: Let's say as the US I want to trade for rares (US Industry expansion can lead to need far outstripping supply),

Under the current rules, it would be okay to trade supplies for rares to say, Argentina, Turkey, or even the Netherlands (Unless of course, the dutch join the allies - then I suppose the US has to cancel it's trades? )

But not okay to trade with the UK. Wierd.

If it wants those trades to be generous, well, what can you do? Should we also prevent the Germans from helping out the axis minors with generous trades?

So then we come down to the grey area where generous trades start turning to donations.... but why should this be wrong? I guess what I'm getting at is, why the rule at all?

(Oh, and one nitpick, i think you need to reword "Italy and Japan may join the Axis whenever they choose to" - either Italy can't join until paris falls, or it can join any time it likes.

Gezeder

 

[mike8472]

What major is trying to get across here, and remeber he is on your team here, so this is an allied or at least anit-german side perspective. Major is saying the US giving lots of supplies to the USSR or UK pre-war is unbalanced as it alows thoses nations to put all IC into production, particaularly the SU which is already uber-strong. Major wanted this rule to help balance the SU out a bit.

There is nothing wrong with trading resources to AI nations pre-war or after. As for sending supplies to the UK once the UK is at war with Germany, i dont have a problem with this or any other nation once at war with the axis. As the game takes into this kind of trade by having a trade effiecny which is directly affected by how many german subs or ships are on convoy duty, resulting in huge amounts of lost supplies or resources. So that is no issue from my point of view.

We just dont want to see any nation exploiting there situation pre-war, eg the US sending huge amounts of supplies to the UK and USSR so they then dont have to build any and put all there IC into production. If you want to do trades do it fairly like that nation would IRL. Same for the Aixs, Germany cannot send lots of supplies for free to Italy or Romania if they are human contolled alowing them to be artificaly strong.

Ill talk with major see if the rule can be better worded.

 

[mike8472]

I had a quick look at the rule again. Gezeder its not to stop generous trades once at war to help out your biesiged UK friend. Its ment to help free up rares and other resources on the world market, hence a 1 month delay on the UK/USSR/USA trading at the start of the game as you simply do not need it for at least that first month. This gives time for the other players to get there economy sorted out plus all the minor AI nations to get reosurces too.

Once that month is over sure trade and build up a healthy surplus each day, but do not go scouring the entire world to chew up every last rare you can find. That is what we are trying to prevent, so that at least pre-war every nation has a fair go.

Think about it for a minute, you could influence axis or other nations decisions better if you had more trade with them. As then that nation risks losing the trade deals they have if they take a certain course of action. Eg if for instance Germany got spain as an allie, you could say reverse your actions or all trade is off, same for Japs if they went after all of china or siam.

So simply put just trade for what you need, in the case of the US/UK/USSR it is nothing early on besides some supplies. As the game goes on even if you build up a huge IC there will be plenty or rares around as the axis will not be able to trade as most sources are overseas, and there only avaible to the allies.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Same old story of any Allied advantages in the game are going to "unbalance" the game.

I do agree with banning USA and Allied aid to USSR before Barbarossa.

Pre-war trade between western nations must be unrestricted or the game will be unbalanced in favor of the Axis .

Of course once the war starts Axis stratergy can have a direct effect on Allied trade.

Lets not forget the USA in the early part of the game is not quite the industrial giant she is later on. Any help in the form of massive supply trades to UK or other western nations must still be paid for in IC.



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[mike8472]

Nolan your not reading my post correctly or understanding them. This is not an issue brought up by the Axis players, but by your allie Major. The reason he brought this up is he is the only person to have played both the USSR & USA. Major believes this issue is open to exploit by human players enabling nations to be alot stronger then they otherwise should be, mainly the USSR. Do not think of this in your current side or nation, this is a game balance issue for everyone Axis/Allie/Commie pigs, not allied or axis seperatly. Think of the larger picture.

I think a simple rule to stop any exploits of this by allied/axis nations or the commie pigs.

No trading of supplies by a human player to any other human player in the pre-war years (eg no trade for UK/Ger or its allies until Sept 39 & no trade to the USSR until June 1941). You can trade as much as you like with AI nations for supplies or to obtain supplies. This is for supplies only all other resources are fine.

This creates a level playing feild for all. It forces all countries to produce there own supplies. Fair for all.

With resources mainly rares, things have now changed with 1.2 being released. The US is now alot harder pushed to have enough rares until it gets its gearing up for war events. All though the UK still gets plenty and can help out there.

So the rule about not alowing the US/Uk/USSR not trading for rares in the first month should be amended to just the UK/USSR not trading in the first month, as the US will run out of rares.

I would like thoses two rules added or amended if there are no objections.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Well I dont care who put the rule forward about restricting western trade. A silly rule is a silly rule. Its just not on.

Just because the major played the usa a few times and sees a possible "exploit" is no reason for such a harsh rule.

What about blobing? Isnt this an exploit to save supplies yet it is used by some players? Unrealistic and can cost you dearly if the war starts early. Just ask Mike

The Axis have so many advantages in the first half of the game yet any advantages the allies can use are looked on as exploits?. Same old story.

We only ever play the first half of the game where the Axis hold all the aces so why do players keep looking for ways to make it even harder for the Allies?

I have played the USSR (longer than most in Mp) and i played the USA a few times in SP. As I said in earlier posts the USA economy early on is not overly powerfull and if the USA player sends supplies to UK in any large amounts it will have a direct effect on the early USA growth. Yanky supplies to the UK are not some kind of exploit freebie. They are paid for by the USA so the "level playing field" remains level for all players.

I do support a ban on USA-Allied trades with USSR untill war between Axis and USSR.

I do not support pre-war restrictions on western trade. Its unrealistic and very silly

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Had a look at the new patch

Not alot changed but UK manpower is much lower.

The 1938 scenario looks good. Maybe we can try it out for our next game?

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[Majorball]

Well having reviewed the restrictions on USA resources being linked to gearing events in version 1.2 this rule is no longer needed as USA wont have the resources to spare anyhow as their resources like their IC is linked to gearing. I will eliminate this rule tonight as 1.2 has superceded it. So there is no need for any more discussion and any trades with any country are acceptable as before but the restriction on the Allies trading for rares in the first month of a new game stays. This is so the Axis may make trade deals first as they are the ones who dont have a plentiful supply. We will however review it at the end of the next game depending on what players think. Hope ths is satisfactory to all. Thanks to Gezeder,Mike, Bumble for your input.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Good News

Thats good news Major!
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On a darker note...

I managed to buy a DVD of the movie "Charge of the Light Brigade" 1968 version. Been looking for years.

When I played it I was shocked to see it wasn,t in widescreen format. Bloody TV format. Half the movie screen was missing.

I had to take it back


The quest continues.

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[mike8472]

Hehe Nolan you might have to wait awhile till they get around to converting it to wide format, if ever.

Yes the changes to 1.2 seem to have eleminated the need for the trade rule, seems they read our mind. I know alot of other MP groups have same prob with US taking all rares and cornering the market. Should be a little harder now for all to get resources.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Yep Mike you could be right there.

Thing is i got it in widescreen on video tape a few years ago. Cant understand why the DVD would be in 4.3 format??????????


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John Howard should send our group to China and Japan to work out the free trade agreements hehehe.

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[mike8472]

Done some testing of our save seeing if we can play it with 1.2. So far so good, no stability issues. It seems we can use 1.2, just we will only get half the benifits until we start a new game. All the interface improvements will be in, convoy benifits and so on. The main issue which wont be included are the extensivei mprovements to the AI, but this wont concern us as our is a large MP game.

I recommend we try it out as i will have saves in 1.1 kept in reserve anyway. If it dosnt work we can always come back to 1.1, but im sure it works. Plus it will save us from switching versions once we also have our tuesday game up and running.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

Cool

Having 2 installs of HOI2 is kinda filling up my HD

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Problem

Looks like a problem with the new patch.

It seems that the USA diplomatic slider effects are all the wrong way around. (move slider to free market and the effects are as if it were moved towards central planning)

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After more testing it looks like its just the cursor info that is the wrong way around and adjusting the sliders still gets the right results. There may still be a problem with the movement of the bars by events. I didn,t have enough time to do a full test but it looks like as a result of events the sliders will move in the wrong direction.

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[The Albatross]

Cool

Having 2 installs of HOI2 is kinda filling up my HD

Think opportunity BB -- time to buy shares in a good HD company !!

Better get an additional HD, when CORE release their new mod - I will have 4 versions at least on mine. HOI 2 {1.1} (for our sunday MP game), HOI 2 {1.2} (for the Tuesday), HOI (Stony Road) and the HOI 2 CORE.

Have you done many 1.2 SP games yet??? I note that Nolan has found a problem with the USA sliders.... I am going to have a look this weekend.

Cheers