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Awesome news - but... Normandy...? Again? Really...?

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Guggy said:
The modelling of infantry and team weapons will make or break things for alot of folks I think.
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Yes. Albeit I should add that the initial dev comments on how it would revolve around stress modelling is promising from a realism perspective. That said it could also be a very unfamiliar experience for players who suddenly find their "elite" 101st Airborne paratroopers or Panzer-Lehr Panzergrenadiers surrendering to some second-line troops who happen to be in a better firing position.
 
They've already suggested separate MG teams... I wonder if they'll try to do properly-represented platoons/squads? Like German standard rifle men have Kar98ks and an MG-42 while the US equivalent has Garands and BARs, with 1919s in a separate unit?

There's a lot of opportunity for granularity here. You could have assault units with SMGs, specialized PIAT/Bazooka units, flamethrower units...

Tanks have to be less deadly vs. infantry, though. No ATGMs mean that infantry under tank/MG fire at range are always toast.
 
Killertomato said:
Tanks have to be less deadly vs. infantry, though. No ATGMs mean that infantry under tank/MG fire at range are always toast.
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I would suggest that everything be less deadly, otherwise most infantry will end up dead rather than stressed / running / routing as was more common historically.

Also, tanks were far from invulnerable to infantry during this campaign. Allied tank losses were very high and the toll was primarily from infantry-held weapons or towed anti-tank guns. German tank attacks were also consistently defeated by Allied infantry using personal anti-tank weapons and small towed pieces like the 6 pounder. Popular history accounts of "tank aces" in Normandy generally don't like to dwell on the fact that Wittman's Tiger was taken out by a towed 6 pounder at Villers-Bocage for instance, or that the 12th SS attempt to "push the British to the beaches" using their Panther tanks ended in a fiasco thanks largely to a couple of well-placed 6 pounders. Even the elite Panzer-Lehr gave up on any notion of "driving back the Allies" after they lost a quarter of their tanks on an ill-fated assault on US Infantry in the first week of July.
 
Zinegata said:
Also, tanks were far from invulnerable to infantry during this campaign. Allied tank losses were very high and the toll was primarily from infantry-held weapons or towed anti-tank guns. German tank attacks were also consistently defeated by Allied infantry using personal anti-tank weapons and small towed pieces like the 6 pounder. Popular history accounts of "tank aces" in Normandy generally don't like to dwell on the fact that Wittman's Tiger was taken out by a towed 6 pounder at Villers-Bocage for instance, or that the 12th SS attempt to "push the British to the beaches" using their Panther tanks ended in a fiasco thanks largely to a couple of well-placed 6 pounders. Even the elite Panzer-Lehr gave up on any notion of "driving back the Allies" after they lost a quarter of their tanks on an ill-fated assault on US Infantry in the first week of July.
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Yeah, that's why I said at range and not period. You have Bazooka, Panzerschreck, PIAT, Panzerfaust, Puppchen, satchel charges, No. 68 AT grenades, sticky bombs, Panzerwurfmines... anyone charging in to attack infantry at 0-300m is going to have a bad time.

I do wonder about towed ATGs, though. Will they come with jeeps/trucks to move them? 6-pounder isn't exactly man-portable, let alone anything heavier.
 
Killertomato said:
Yeah, that's why I said at range and not period. You have Bazooka, Panzerschreck, PIAT, Panzerfaust, Puppchen, satchel charges, No. 68 AT grenades, sticky bombs, Panzerwurfmines... anyone charging in to attack infantry at 0-300m is going to have a bad time.

I do wonder about towed ATGs, though. Will they come with jeeps/trucks to move them? 6-pounder isn't exactly man-portable, let alone anything heavier.
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It will be interesting to see how mines will play into this game if they do at all. Perhaps luring a tank into a position they think is advantageous and then the whole hill is rigged with AT mines. Towed AT guns WILL be the counter to tanks, as they were in RUSE, to which this game seems to borrow quite a bit from.
 
Killertomato said:
Yeah, that's why I said at range and not period. You have Bazooka, Panzerschreck, PIAT, Panzerfaust, Puppchen, satchel charges, No. 68 AT grenades, sticky bombs, Panzerwurfmines... anyone charging in to attack infantry at 0-300m is going to have a bad time.

I do wonder about towed ATGs, though. Will they come with jeeps/trucks to move them? 6-pounder isn't exactly man-portable, let alone anything heavier.
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Long-ranged shooting by tanks against infantry targets was very rare in Normandy, as the terrain was too restricted for such long-ranged firing and the accuracy and spotting was too poor for tanks of this era. The majority of long-ranged fire casualties incurred by the Allies was due to German mortar fire, whereas the German infantry tended to suffer most from Allied heavy artillery tubes (reflecting the sort of indirect firepower both sides had). That hadn't been very well simulated in Wargame though despite the game having both indirect artillery and mortars.
 
Zinegata said:
Long-ranged shooting by tanks against infantry targets was very rare in Normandy, as the terrain was too restricted for such long-ranged firing and the accuracy and spotting was too poor for tanks of this era. The majority of long-ranged fire casualties incurred by the Allies was due to German mortar fire, whereas the German infantry tended to suffer most from Allied heavy artillery tubes (reflecting the sort of indirect firepower both sides had). That hadn't been very well simulated in Wargame though despite the game having both indirect artillery and mortars.
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Well, early European Escalation was basicaly Arty Party.
 
Eugen will have made 5 games in this style by now, I really think they'll have got the problems sorted out. I hope so anyway.

A lot of people seem to expect Normandy to have Kursk like lines of sight. The average engagement during the battle took place at 300m.

The Tetrarchs seem to hint at the presence of the 6th Airborne division as a playable unit. I'm really eager to see how they balance such a force given it being an airborne unit.

21st Panzer should be equally interesting for the... interesting... selection of vehicles it has.
 
EUG_MadMat said:
Indeed, one of my favorite German panzer unit ... :)
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Aka, the "How many old french vehicles can we put a 75mm gun on and have them still move forward" division. :p
 
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