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croa.JPG



Sorry for its low quality, I just took it out of one of my books..

Now, this shows that Croatia is considered in the byzantine sphere of interests, at least in 1025. Croatia, as Diocleea (Zeta), Rascia or Bosnia are vassals. This is the result of the 1018 administrative organization of the Empire.
 
Demetrios, that is the area around Edessa. Compare it with a map of the County of Eddesa. 1040 was the time of the last expansion into Syria, although Tzismeces took Damascus and could have taken Baghdad. It also includes the area of the Emirate of Allepo, what Treadgolds shows as a protectorate, which I find appropriate dispite the rulers being Muslim.
Sorry Demetrios, it appears the wording is protectorate, which is similar, but not wholy the same. Still, I take pride in having bested you, but do not pretend to know more on post-Alexius 1 history, having read little on the subject.
Demetrios, do you know of any good place to find a copy of Choniate's Annals? I have been looking for it for a good half a year.
 
The Byzantine province of Edessa didn't cover anywhere near the area of the Crusader county, and the area shown in Mesopotamia is far, far bigger than the Crusader county. The border shown on Alexandru's map (for all I dispute it in the Balkans) is quite correct in the southeast, showing the border to be along the Euphrates, and only crossing it to cover the small area around Edessa and environs (the shaded area near the edge of the map)

Tzimisces took Damascus in way back in 975, and the area was lost soon after that. The southern border of the Empire stabalized around Laodikea. The protectorate over Aleppo was long gone as well - the Emir of Aleppo thoroughly routed the Byzantine army under the Emperor Romanus III when he attempted to re-instate it in 1030.

IF I had webspace, I could scan in several maps to illustrate my arguments...
 
It is the Emirate of Alleppo, which it covers perfectly.
 
Originally posted by CCR_of_the_Code
It is the Emirate of Alleppo, which it covers perfectly.

Except, by 1045, the Byzantine protectorate over the Emirate of Aleppo had long been defunct, topped by the disatrous rout of the Byzantine army trying to re-establish that rule in 1030, led in its flight by the Emperor himself. I mentioned this in my previous post - did you neglect to see it? After that, no Byzantine army got anywhere near Aleppo until 1138. Moreover, the Emirate of Aleppo did not own land on the east side of the Euphrates - that was under the control of the Emirs of Mosul and Melid (Diyarbakr), potentates who were never the tributaries of the Eastern Empire, at any period.
 
Sorry.
But still, pretty good for someone who might have had to fudge a little on his Beta subscription letter, is it not?
 
the only time that croatia was a byzantine dependency is during prince zdeslavs' reign, 876.-879.

after the death of prince Domagoj, one of our greatest heroes, who relentlessly fought the saracens, the franks, venice and byzantium, zdeslav overthrew his heirs with byzantine help, but he was soon killed by angry subjects who reinstated prince Branimir, who immediately allied with the Pope, and here's the letter from the pope which prooves Croatian independence

http://hrvati.virtualave.net/hr/pov/pismo.html
 
ok, i'll translate it.
but you should have taken this as a creative challenge to learn croatian...
the original is in latin of course, there's a pic of it...
 
Originally posted by Foolish
ok, i'll translate it.
but you should have taken this as a creative challenge to learn croatian...
the original is in latin of course, there's a pic of it...
Don't go to too much trouble for me... I was just wondering.

With my abilities to learn languages I don't think Croatian will ge the first new one I embark on I'm afraid... ;)
 
the only time that croatia was a byzantine dependency is during prince zdeslavs' reign, 876.-879.

Didnt Borna also for a year or two accepeted Byzantine Emperor as supreme leder, before he was kiled by oposition ?
I forgot :eek:




Originally posted by Havard
Is there a translation available of that? :)

For personal reedings or Ck releated one?



Originally posted by Foolish
ok, i'll translate it.
but you should have taken this as a creative challenge to learn croatian...
the original is in latin of course, there's a pic of it...

You have latin text of it, or a link?
I newer located one on net on latin, or english, alought I didnt search for one for a loong time now.
 
Pismo pape Ivana VIII. Knezu Branimiru
Letter from pope John VIII. to prince Branimir

Dragom sinu Branimiru,
To dear son Branimir,

Èitajuæi pismo tvoga gospodstva, što si ga nama po èasnom sveæeniku Ivanu, uzdaniku našem, poslao, razabrah jasnije od sunca koliku vjeru i iskreno štovanje gajiš prema crkvi svetih apostola Petra i Pavla i prema nama.

Reading the letter of your lordship, which you sent us by the honorable priest Ivan, our trusted one, i saw brighter than the sun how great faith and true respect you hold towards the church of the holy apostles Peter and Paul and towards us.

Pa jer s voljom Božjom ponizno ispovijedaš i želiš kao dragi sin biti u svemu vjeran i pokoran svetom Petru i nama, koji smo po milosti Božjoj namjesto njega, uvelike zahvaljujemo gospodstvu tvojemu ovim našim pismom apostolskim pa te s oèinskom ljubavlju kao najmilijeg sina primamo i u duhu grlimo, gdje se vraæaš u krilo Svete Stolice apostolske, majke tvoje, u kojoj su se i preði tvoji iz najbistrijega vrela pojili slatkim napitkom svetoga nauka;

Since you by the Will of God humbly confess and wants as a dear son to be completely faithful and servient to holy Peter and us, who by the Mercy of God are in his place, we greatly thank your lordship by this apostle letter and with paternal love as our most favorite son we accept you and in spirit embrace, where you return into the wing of the apostle Holy Seat , your mother, in which your ancestors too from the clearest spring drank the sweet drink of holy teaching;

i bit æemo ti skloni apostolskom dobrotom, da bi vazda lebdjela nad tobom milost i blagoslov od apostolskih glava sv. Petra i Pavla, te da bi uvijek bio èitav i siguran od vidljivih i nevidljivih neprijatelja, koji neprestano ljudskom spasu zasjedaju i staju na put, i da bi lakše stekao žuðenu pobjedu nad neprijateljima, jer, kako budeš nastojao, da se sam Bogu ponizno pokoriš i slušaš sveti nauk njegov i kako budeš iskazao za ljubav Božju dužnu poèast sveæenicima i službenicima njegovim, tako æeš bez sumnje biti pobjednik i gospodar nad svima svojim neprijateljima i buntovnim protivnicima.

And we will favor you with apostle kindness, may forever hover above you wisdom and blessing of the apostle heads of st. Peter and Paul, to always keep you whole and safe from visible and invisible enemies, which constantly stalk human salvation, and step on it's path, and for you to more easily gain the desired victory over enemies, because, as you strive, to penitently submit to God and listen to His holy teaching and as you demnostrate for the Love of God your debt to the priests and all in His service, so you will doubtlessly be the victor and master over all your enemies and rebelious foes.

I zato opominjemo revnost tvoju, da u svim svojim djelima imaš uvijek pred oèima Gospodina, da ga se bojiš i svim srcem ljubiš, jer psalamist veli: " Blažen èovjek, koji se Boga boji i komu su veoma omiljele zapovijedi njegove; jako æe biti sjeme na njegovo na zemlji "; a sam veli u evanðelju : " Tko mene ljubi, držat æe rijeè moju, i moj æe otac ljubiti njega, i k njemu æemo doæi i kod njega æemo se nastaniti ".

And that is why we call to your dilligence, that in all your actions you always have The Lord in your eyes, to fear him and with all your heart love hem, because the psalm says: 'Blessed the man who fears God and who loves his commands dearly; strong will his seed on earth be'; and He himself states in the gospel: 'He ho loves me, shall keep my word, and my father will love him, and to him we will come and with him we will dwell'.

Kad je to tako, ako svojim dobrim djelima, što sada sjaju, proslaviš Boga, bez sumnje æe te jednom ovjenèati vjeèna slava, jer on preko Mojsija sam svjedoèi, da tako èini, govoreæi: " Proslavit æu one koji mene slave ".

Since it is so, if through your good deeds, which now shine, you glorify God, without doubt you will once be laureled by eternal fame, becaus He through Moses states, that it is so, saying: 'I'll glorify those who honor me.'

Pa kako si preko spomenutog veæ sveæenika Ivana od naše vrhovne vlasti molio, da te za bolji spas tvoj blagoslovimo našom apostolskom rijeèju, to smo vrlo rado uèinili.

Since you asked through the mentioned priest Ivan from our supreme power, that for your greater salvation we bless you with our apostle word, we have gladly done so.

Kad smo naime na dan Uzašašæa Gospodnjega služili misu na žrtveniku Sv. Petra, digosmo ruke u vis i blagoslovismo tebe i cio narod tvoj i cijelu zemlju tvoju, da možeš ovdje uvijek spašen tijelom i dušom sretno i sigurno vladati zemaljskom kneževinom, a poslije smrti da se na nebesima veseliš s Bogom i da vjeèno vladaš.

When we on the day of Lords Ascension served mass on the altar of St.Peter, we raised our hands high and blessed you, your entire nation and your entire land, sou you can always her, saved by body and soul happily and safely rule your mundane princedom, and after your death to joy on the heavens with God and rule eternaly.

A buduæi da smo spoznali da je ovaj isti sveæenik Ivan u svemu tebi i nama uistinu vjeran, podali smo mu naše apostolsko pismo, da ga preda bugarskom kralju. Stoga te molimo, daj za ljubav svetomu Petru i nama, da s tvojim dopuštenjem obavi to poslanstvo bez otezanja, pa zato tebi za ljubav mnogo puta zahvaljujemo.

And since we discovered this same priest Ivan to be truly loyal in everything to you and us, we have given him an apostle letter, to give it to he bulgarian king. Therefore, we beseech you, for the love of st. Peter, and us, that with your permission he makes this mission without delay, for your love we thank you many times.

Dano 7. dan mjeseca lipnja, 12 indikcije
Delivered 7. day month June, 12 indiction

N. Klaiæ, Izvori za hrvatsku povijest do 1526. godine, Zagreb 1972., str. 28

*Branimir is the first independent ruler, he wore the title knez, i think prince is the closest title, Croatia became independent at the begining of his reign, but still not a kingdom, 'kneževina', i think closest is princedom, i don't know, todays Lichtenstein and Monaco are 'kneževine' in croatian. Find your equivalent then. His son Tomislav was the last 'knez' who after great victories over Hungarians and Bulgarians in 925. became king on the legendary coronation at the field of Duvno, outside of todays Tomislavgrad, Bosnia and Hercegovina.

hrv, i don't think borna is relevant in the issue, he was a frankish vassal, and this is about proving to the disbelievers that 10./11.ct Croatia was 100% independent and not a byzantine puppet

as for the latin original, try checking the source, my latin is not as it once was...

...ak je nešt glupo, to je kad dva hrvata melju na engleskom da se prave važni pred ovima iz vana... osjeæam se kao da glumim nijemca da prije dobijem konobarovu pažnju u nekoj konobi na otocima... ;)
 
Thank you :)

Originally posted by Foolish
*Branimir is the first independent ruler, he wore the title knez, i think prince is the closest title, Croatia became independent at the begining of his reign, but still not a kingdom, 'kneževina', i think closest is princedom, i don't know, todays Lichtenstein and Monaco are 'kneževine' in croatian. Find your equivalent then. His son Tomislav was the last 'knez' who after great victories over Hungarians and Bulgarians in 925. became king on the legendary coronation at the field of Duvno, outside of todays Tomislavgrad, Bosnia and Hercegovina.
I beleive Knez is equivalent to the English Prince, yes. Sometimes it's (wrongly) translated as Duke too I think, but Prince seems to be more accurate to me. How do you say king in Croatian? Kral?
 
i believe prince is equivalent tho knez, but prince as a hereditary title, not as prince= son of king/queen, heir to the throne

king is kralj in croatian, lj=one letter(you don't have that one)...
 
What's the difference between duke and prince in English? In Polish it's translated either as ksiaze, diuk or kniaz depending only on geographical location....with ksiaze being main word and other just added if needing atmosphere...
 
Originally posted by szopen76
What's the difference between duke and prince in English?
Technically, in modern English a Prince is usually the son of a King, with a direct claim to the throne, while A Duke was a fedual title (IIRC the most powerful feudal title outside of the hereditary royal line.) Dukedoms were also hereditary. Some Dukes were also Princes, but only through the Royal line; York, and Cornwall among those traditionally granted to sons of the King.

In Elizabethan English, Prince was used more generically and synonymous with "ruler." That might be a Mediterranean influence, for example from Machiavelli's The Prince; "But when cities or countries are accustomed to live under a prince, and his family is exterminated..." The term prince throughout the book's modern and Elizabethan English translation is synonymous with King throughout. Shakespeare sometimes uses prince or refers to princes in this wider context too. It's been a while, but I don't remember Middle English using Prince in this way (I hope someone will correct me if that's wrong) so I would assume it's something which made it's way into the language later.
 
in croatian:

duke=vojvoda, herceg - highest nobility, but always a vassal
knez=ruler, might be vassal, but also independent, just has not yet recieved a crown from either rome or constantinople
king=independent monarch, has a crown
 
From hostkingdom/Regnal Chronicles :
DUKE (Fr. Duc, Ger. Herzog, Ir. Diuc; Ital. Doge, Duca; Lat. Dux; Port. Duque; Serb. Herceg; Sp. Duque) The highest grade of nobility, and sometimes a sovereign title. Most of the above-mentioned terms derive from the Latin "Dux", meaning a leader or commander, especially in a military sense, ie. a general or warlord. Warlord is the exact equivalent of the Dark Ages usage from which the term evolved into an hereditary caste of nobility: "Dux Bellorum". The German Herzog means exactly the same thing.

PRINCE (Fr. Prince; Ger. Fürst, Prinz; Ir. Flaith, Mal, Prionsa; Lat. Princeps; Port. Principe; Sp. Principe; Welsh Brenin) This term has any of a number of definitions depending on context. Usually, "Prince" refers to a member of a Royal Family who is not the sovereign. Often, especially when used as "Crown Prince", it refers to the immediate heir to the throne. It is also a sovereign title, and as such there are several Principalities still in existence today. In German nobility, a Prince was a grade of nobility located below Dukes but above Margraves. The term derives from the Latin, which means simply "First, Chief, the Boss" The Roman Empire was, in fact, described by its citizens as "the Principate".
KNIAZ (Russian Knyaz; Serb. Knez) An archaic title meaning "Prince", but often mistranslated as "Duke". The Kniazy were rulers of the various Russian states existing during the Middle Ages. They had differing levels of authority; technically a Kniaz was a sub-Prince, the highest level were called Veliky Knyaz, Great Prince (also translated poorly, as Grand Duke).

VOIVODE (Russ. Voyevoda; Serb. Vojvod) An old Slavonic title, usually encountered in the Balkans. Its original sense was a military one, meaning field commander in an army. By extension, it became the title of district or provincial governors, and evolved in some areas a quasi-hereditary status close to that of Prince or Duke. Cf. Bulg. "Voin", "Warrior". In a slightly altered context, it has also come to be applied as a term describing the clan leader of a Gypsy (Rroma) band or extended family.
 
The word "prince" IIRC comes from the title "princeps" that the Roman Emperors used from Augustus to a couple of centuries after him. It means something like "first among equals".:)
 
Originally posted by Nikolai
The word "prince" IIRC comes from the title "princeps" that the Roman Emperors used from Augustus to a couple of centuries after him. It means something like "first among equals".:)

First among equals is primus interpares, which the Brit PM is supposed to rule by in his Cabinet :)