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Bocaj said:
Giving them explorers from 1540 would put France at a definite disadvantage from the start as they don't really get explorers that early even.
Actually, France got more explorers that live much longer then Englands before 1540s. France got Verazzano 1522-1527, and Cartier 1532-1557.
England starts with Bedford 1520-1526 (atleast in PEs 1520, he doesnt exist in the org leader file. Dunno why). And that's the only explorer England got before 1550s, first after that they get plenty of them :)

The Cabot twins dies before 1520s, and the english early advantage dies with them in a 1520 start.

So you should worry more about England in that case ;)
Solution for this might be to give England more explorered land in NA from start.
 
ForzaA said:
40s, 50s... don't REALLY care about the exact time, but I do think Holland (and DAN, SWE, VEN ) needs some early explorers - the explorers they get in the late 16th century did NOT start exploring just west of Ireland, the Canaries etc.


...though the *key* problem is ofcourse not that some countries get their explorers late, but rather that the early colonisers can claim FAR more already than they could IRL.
Holland: One explorer in the 1530s so they can explore the way to the new world and possibly build a colony or two. Live period something about 7 years.
And one other in the 1550s that live longer.
Sweden-Denmark-Venice: All gets one explorer in the 1500s, starting after 1550s. And one more in the early 1600s.

Thoughts?
 
Fredrik82 said:
Holland: One explorer in the 1530s so they can explore the way to the new world and possibly build a colony or two. Live period something about 7 years.
And one other in the 1550s that live longer.
sounds reasonable in terms of what they "knew" historically, I would say... I'll see if I can find some names for historicals.

Sweden-Denmark-Venice: All gets one explorer in the 1500s, starting after 1550s. And one more in the early 1600s.

Thoughts?

sounds good.. gives them a little freedom from other countries in that regard..
though you'd have to check what they get already (IIRC Denmark gets one sometime, dunno when exactly... but it would be rather odd to lose that "advantage" vs Sweden if they both get their early explore before that)
 
ForzaA said:
sounds reasonable in terms of what they "knew" historically, I would say... I'll see if I can find some names for historicals.
Thanks, and when you're at it could you find some Dutch leaders (Generals/Admirals) during the timeperiod 1520-1570s aswell?

ForzaA said:
sounds good.. gives them a little freedom from other countries in that regard..
though you'd have to check what they get already (IIRC Denmark gets one sometime, dunno when exactly... but it would be rather odd to lose that "advantage" vs Sweden if they both get their early explore before that)
Ah yes, Denmark got a explorer 1610-1628. But i find it very strange that Sweden lack an explorer in its leader file to start with, as they also colonised parts of NA and Africa irl. The only advantage Denmark will have in this case is that they will have more explorers then Sweden. and that is not a bad thing either.
 
Fredrik82 said:
England starts with Bedford 1520-1526 (atleast in PEs 1520, he doesnt exist in the org leader file. Dunno why). And that's the only explorer England got before 1550s, first after that they get plenty of them :)

Bedford is a fantasy explorer specifically added by Peter Ebbesen to give England the possibility to explore too. He was called Lord cheesy in early releases IIRC :)
 
We got some stuff to clear out!

Random leaders
We have not yet decieded on what to do with random leaders. The MT system is rather unbalanced and needs to be changed a bit. I'm very sceptical to any systems that generates uber leaders. 5 or 6 stats leaders should be more or less impossible to get.
I will discuss this more with KJ and Tonio in order to come up with a good solution. Any ideas are welcome however.

I'm not sure if to use random explorers and conquistadors, what do you guys think?

The Holland issue
Holland will get some extra leaders, two explorers for early colonisation and some admirals and Generals to handle their struggle for independence a bit easier.
Should they start with maps aswell?
The lowlands will either be controled by Austria or Spain.
I'm not sure about vassalship though, it might make Holland extremely weak and threaten its existence more. Anyone got any good ideas?
The Dutch DP settings will be less uber aswell.

Bocajs 1520 Scenario
Be sure to post any suggestions regarding the scenario, this will be more easy when the scenario is finished, or atleast finished enough to have a good look. I suppose this will happen during this week?

The scenario will probably be further tweaked for this game anyway. Holland and other stuff.

Rules
- Obey the GM
- No map trading till the year 1650
- ToT slept
- max two humans in the same alliance
- Max two vassals allowed

I'd like to keep a limited amount of rules, but if you got any further suggestions please post them.

As for guidelines, i will add more stuff here.

juv95hrn :D
If anyone feels willing to switch to Brandenburg please let me know.
This is the only thing left, then we have a complete roster finally.
 
FAL said:
Bedford is a fantasy explorer specifically added by Peter Ebbesen to give England the possibility to explore too. He was called Lord cheesy in early releases IIRC :)
Ah, i suspected something like that :eek:
I suppose we should do a similar thing in this scenario, especially now when others will get extra explorers.
 
Random leaders
Probably best if random leaders are set to max 4 stats (and 1 seige) in all categories. No random conquistadors or explorers as we already get that via random events

The Holland issue
The explorers dates you suggested are fine (perhaps 5 years for the the first one though). NO Spanish maps at start though. I still think they should remain as a vassal to start with, but they need not be subject to the 20 year rule at the start (same goes to Sweden as well). They should be given a couple of leaders (max of 4 in any one stat though). Agreed that DP sliders should be less optimal as well (more like Burgundy's)

Bocajs 1520 Scenario
The sooner this is up the better, so than we can discuss possible tweaks to it.

Rules
No problems - map trading with AI is forbidden right?
 
BTW, vassalaged is perhaps a better word to use instead of vassalised.
 
PJL said:
Random leaders
Probably best if random leaders are set to max 4 stats (and 1 seige) in all categories. No random conquistadors or explorers as we already get that via random events
This is probably the best and the simplest way.

PJL said:
Rules
No problems - map trading with AI is forbidden right?
Yes, any kind of map trading is not allowed before 1650. But it is not forbidden to take maps through sacking the capital.
 
I agree that stat 5s and 6s should be rare, but they should not be nonexistent. Especially if we have an MT system, in which you earn the quality of your leaders by fighting wars. Either way, it should be extremely hard to get leaders randomly, but I don't like the idea of making it impossible to get an above average leader.
 
If anyone wants to do my assignment for me I will happily use that time for this scenario.
 
i suppose that MT needs correction. Couple of days ago i thought a bit on this, but didn`t finish this process really to offer more detailed balanced system.

First of all, i believe basis of wars points should be changed by meaning the rating of wars. For example, in Victoria the war inside top8 called Great War and WS there can be upto +200 and it gives more prestige.

I didn`t read ****69`s ;) Power and Prestige system carefully, which is a bit other area, but wars value is too different from time to time. We all know there are very short wars (not phoney), rather usual wars, long wars (usually stubborn sides :) ), and world global wars.

There can be different method to mark the value of wars
- subjective by decision(s) of GM/players
- WE (wartax can be counted as well, coz from 1500 it is more damage than benefit surely), but WE had limit +10 on cent=5, inno=5, range from 6 to 14 depending on DP
- period of the war (years), close to WE
- land losses (though stats gives overall losses for the session), corrected by MP, and naval losses

Well, we all saw multiplie short wars, each one of which can`t be the basis for much gaining militaty traditions points. At the same time long 10 years wars between continental fighters are deserved around 2 points imho.

Secondly, i saw only limitted number of times, when countries could reach 8 MT points, which means 5-5-5 leader. And the country should get much luck to get such maximal leader at the required moment. In all cases, such high MT was deserved because of multiplie short wars or alliance stopping big country (usually naval alliance, each of naval country produce limitted amount of troops). Of course it happens only after infra 5 and usually from 1650 years
Meaning what i describe in point 1, it is very hard to gain such amount of points in really prestige wars, like winning 2-3 rather big wars each session.
So i believe regression of points from last session shouldn`t be 50%, it should produce higher remaning points.

And finally, third point. Mostly happened before infra 5, when war is not needed for list of countries, and they are stuck with 0 MT points and start wars only later. But anyway base MT as 7 as sum of param, which mean 3-2-2 or 2-3-2 or 2-2-3 is too low imho. You shouldn`t drive very hard in wars to get at least average leader. And for example cap 10 (which means 3 MT points, most popular for the countries) produce like 3-4-3 leader only at best luck. Usually this luck doesn`t happen.

And minor notice. Many GMs like to increase random leaders average from 1700 (though 1685 is much better date for this - or even 1650), but current basic MT system doesn`t count that, it still have same limits. Of course you can tell that there are more wars after 1700, but being Spain in Unleashed and having only 1 land enemy for last sessions - France, i could have 2 big costly wars per session, which would give me only 2 points (cut down from 2.5 if one war won) or 3 points, if two wars won.
3 MT points, as we know, is only 3-4-3 max, hardly to compare french leadership. Most probably 2 points, when you have only 1 enemy, is only 3-3-3 or 3-4-2 as best.
 
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King John said:
I agree that stat 5s and 6s should be rare, but they should not be nonexistent. Especially if we have an MT system, in which you earn the quality of your leaders by fighting wars. Either way, it should be extremely hard to get leaders randomly, but I don't like the idea of making it impossible to get an above average leader.

Leaders with 4 stats are above average though, those with fives and sixes are the military geniuses.
 
FAL said:
Bedford is a fantasy explorer specifically added by Peter Ebbesen to give England the possibility to explore too. He was called Lord cheesy in early releases IIRC :)


Bedford t'anti-Cheese, I believe


but yeah, added by PE to give ENG a chance.

Fredrik82 said:
Thanks, and when you're at it could you find some Dutch leaders (Generals/Admirals) during the timeperiod 1520-1570s aswell?

working on it... though ofcourse, particularly in the earlier period, there weren't many Dutch generals/admirals (they were at that time a fairly compliant part of the Habsburg territories, with no separate army/navy)

On the matter of explorers: haven't been able to trace the names of any early explorers, and using Mercator (that Flemish guy) would be very odd aswell - since he never actually explored AFAIK, just make a lot of very good maps.
 
Before 1685, this is quite true. However, 4s aren't above average in the last century. Not when "military geniuses" are the norm. You need to have a "military genius" to be on par during those times. But as I've said, I agree that average leaders should make up the vast majority of random leaders, not MGs(military genius's). Just so that it's not impossible to get a MG, if you can earn it through warmongering(if we have an MT system).

Those suggestions, Tonio, sound a little lax. I'm thinking it might become too easy to build up high MT that way. But, perhaps we could just increase the degradation of points once you got to a certain level, like 5 MT. Maybe go from .4 back to .5 degradation.

Another possibility would be to just use Zeitgeists system of MT. In TFG, rather than using MT to determine a cap on maximum leader's stats, MT determines how many random leaders are generated. The amount of leaders we use in that game is pretty crazy, we have each MT point give an average of three leaders, and add that to a default average of ten leaders. We wouldn't have to use that many in this game(though it is kind of fun:)).

Would it be possible to make an option to increase or decrease the likelihood of certain stats for your generator? So then we could raise the likelihood of 3s and 4s, and lower the likelihood of 5s and 6s, which would help a lot if we're either not using MT for random leaders, or going to go with the TFG system of MT.
 
The more leaders one has, the easier it will be able stand up to any potential gangbang/multi-front war. I think that's a positive thing.
 
Hendrik van Brederode; general 1559-15 feb 1568
some Dutch site says that he already was in the army as an officer from around 1559 (sadly, he's not so important as to attract much attention on English sites)

..looking at the leaders file, it looks like he's not *really* necessary (from 1559 onwards, the Dutch will have leaders)
they also have a general (3/3/2/1) until 1538.
also, a general (3/2/3/1) until 1543 (van Rossum) - who could well be increased to 1555 (in 1543, Gelre was defeated and van Rossum joined the Habsburgs, so he was still alive, and likely would have served "the Dutch" if they were around)

that would leave a leaderless gap of only 2 years.. nothing to get worried about.

I still need to fill the admiral gap, though ('20-'65)