Battlefront III - Gearing for war

[unmerged(10894)]

I do have one question I want to throw out about the scenario.

Who would like to see each major naval nation with a shipyard? Portugal, Spain, OE, Venice all already have one, England gets one soon, but France, Denmark, and Sweden get shafted. The main difference would be that they could colonise easier and put up a good naval show. Good things imo.

 

[ForzaA]

I do have one question I want to throw out about the scenario.

Who would like to see each major naval nation with a shipyard? Portugal, Spain, OE, Venice all already have one, England gets one soon, but France, Denmark, and Sweden get shafted. The main difference would be that they could colonise easier and put up a good naval show. Good things imo.

sounds like a plan

you'll have to go look at historical placement (and strategic placement) before you do so, though (possibly in talking with the various countries)

Also, I believe that both SWE and FRA do have a (late) event that potentially gives a shipyard, so I'm not sure how that would fit in exactly.

 

[Cicero]

Holland: One explorer in the 1530s so they can explore the way to the new world and possibly build a colony or two. Live period something about 7 years.
And one other in the 1550s that live longer.

sounds quite reasonable, but please dont give Holland too bad sliders; its a tiny little nation that relies on its good domestic policy settings.
anyway with being playable from the beginning you can count on me in Holland.

Oranje boven!

 

[PJL]

I do have one question I want to throw out about the scenario.

Who would like to see each major naval nation with a shipyard? Portugal, Spain, OE, Venice all already have one, England gets one soon, but France, Denmark, and Sweden get shafted. The main difference would be that they could colonise easier and put up a good naval show. Good things imo.

Denmark has a shipyard in Peter's scenarios.

 

[PJL]

sounds quite reasonable, but please dont give Holland too bad sliders; its a tiny little nation that relies on its good domestic policy settings.
anyway with being playable from the beginning you can count on me in Holland.

Oranje boven!

Based on Bocaj's 1453 Burgundy and Hive's 1568 Holland, the 1520 Holland DP sliders should be something like this:

Aristocracy : 5
Centralisation : 5
Innovativeness : 4
Mercantilism : 3
Offensive : 3
Land : 5
Quality : 6
Serfdom : 4

 

[admiral drake]

I do have one question I want to throw out about the scenario.

Who would like to see each major naval nation with a shipyard? Portugal, Spain, OE, Venice all already have one, England gets one soon, but France, Denmark, and Sweden get shafted. The main difference would be that they could colonise easier and put up a good naval show. Good things imo.

i think all major nations should get a shipyard

 

[Fredrik82]

sounds like a plan

you'll have to go look at historical placement (and strategic placement) before you do so, though (possibly in talking with the various countries).

Yep, sounds good. But then again, everyone should get one then, Poland in Danzig, Sweden in Stockholm, Russia in ingermanland, Denmark in copenhagen etc etc. Also England should start with one also then, they shouldn't be forced to wait for 10 years for one.

Also, I believe that both SWE and FRA do have a (late) event that potentially gives a shipyard, so I'm not sure how that would fit in exactly.

Sweden doesnt get any, which is strange to start with since one of the biggest shipyards in the baltics were built in Karlskrona in late 1600s. Karlskrona was formed only for this purpose, also Karlskrona was Swedens largest city for some time, for a city that consisted mainly of the military.
And that France gets none is even more weird. :wacko:

 

[Fredrik82]

Hendrik van Brederode; general 1559-15 feb 1568
some Dutch site says that he already was in the army as an officer from around 1559 (sadly, he's not so important as to attract much attention on English sites)

..looking at the leaders file, it looks like he's not *really* necessary (from 1559 onwards, the Dutch will have leaders)
they also have a general (3/3/2/1) until 1538.
also, a general (3/2/3/1) until 1543 (van Rossum) - who could well be increased to 1555 (in 1543, Gelre was defeated and van Rossum joined the Habsburgs, so he was still alive, and likely would have served "the Dutch" if they were around)

that would leave a leaderless gap of only 2 years.. nothing to get worried about.

I still need to fill the admiral gap, though ('20-'65)

Sweet,
they should have atleast one historical admiral during this time.

 

[Fredrik82]

Would it be possible to make an option to increase or decrease the likelihood of certain stats for your generator? So then we could raise the likelihood of 3s and 4s, and lower the likelihood of 5s and 6s, which would help a lot if we're either not using MT for random leaders, or going to go with the TFG system of MT.

I'm still not sure what to do with random leaders, but this sounds like a good idea, if it can be done that is.

Based on Bocaj's 1453 Burgundy and Hive's 1568 Holland, the 1520 Holland DP sliders should be something like this:

Aristocracy : 5
Centralisation : 5
Innovativeness : 4
Mercantilism : 3
Offensive : 3
Land : 5
Quality : 6
Serfdom : 4

Something like this, yes.
None should start with uber DP settings, the reason Holland got such thing when released in the 1570s is because they have to catch up fast economicly in order to survive.
In a 1520 start, the situation is different. Everyone is poor and backward.

 

[Fredrik82]

What is the general opinion about a land/naval slider 5 rule?
This worked out pretty well in unleashed i must say.

 

[admiral drake]

What is the general opinion about a land/naval slider 5 rule?
This worked out pretty well in unleashed i must say.

land/naval 5 is a must these days

 

[Tonioz]

EEP-Rus has van Gronsveldt 1515 - 1531 explorer, William van Treslong 1530 - 1594 explorer and Lume de la Mark 1542 - 1578 conq for Duchy of Holland, which existed from 1419.

Fredrik, can you please post final roster, still wondering what country i`m playing.

 

[Cicero]

land/naval 5 is a must these days

i guess you are kidding

the differences between naval and land nations is one of the most important aspects of the game. please dont take it away....

 

[Fredrik82]

Final roster

Austria - Tonioz
Poland - HG
Venice - PJL
England - Fredrik
Russia - Vendere Sacerdo
Portugal - Bocaj
Sweden - Babúr
France - Damocles
Ottoman Empire - KJ
Spain - Drake
Denmark - Forzaa
Holland - Cicero
Persia/USA - Pibe
Brandenburg/Prussia - Juv

 

[PJL]

What is the general opinion about a land/naval slider 5 rule?
This worked out pretty well in unleashed i must say.

No, dead against this rule.

 

[admiral drake]

land-naval

its 1 of the most unbalancing sliders in the game people that are against this rule ussually are the narrowminded folks afraid of something new while this rule has been tested extensive and has proven to be a very good 1 in general

taking away difference between land and naval will make landpowers better able to compete at sea while ussual navalpowers stil got the advantage of better admirals (dutch and england ) vs stil higher mp (france-prussia ect)

i won't say england would be as strong as france on the continent with this rule but it has a pretty good change of fighting now , youre troops has same morale as frence possible even better

when youre naval you suffer from 0.5morale disadvantage wich is a huge difference not to forget 50% mp difference between land and naval



without this rule you can be sure that france among others probaly won't bother with competing at sea same like england won't fight active vs continentals except in alliance wars

with this rule france ect have at the very least a change to compete active at sea wich can only add to the game

my suggestion is you vote and see how that ends (looking in general direction of pjl)

 

[Tonioz]

Europe population

region, population in 1500, population in 1600 in million inhabitans (meaning city population, what is shown in eu2, and village population, what should be related with mp)
Iberia - 9,3 - 11,3
Italy - 10,5 - 13,3
France - 16,4 - 18,5
Benelux - 1,9 - 2,9
British Isles - 4,4 - 6,8
Scandinavia - 1,5 - 2,4
Germany - 12,0 - 15,0
Swiss - 0,8 - 1,0
Danube countries - 5,5 - 7,0
Balkans - 7,0 - 8,0
Poland - 3,5 - 5,0
Russia - 9,0 - 15,5

Ottomans and north Africa in 1600 - 22,0 (another source)
Europe without OE, Russia and Hungary (occupied by OE) - 61,6 at 1500 and 78 at 1600. There were 154 cities with population over 10 000 at 1500 at this region. 220 - at 1600.
Cities population in 1500 - 3,4. In 1600 - 5,9
Amsterdam - 14 000 - 65 000
London - 40 000 - 200 000
Paris - 100 000 - 220 000
around 50 percents of city population was Italy and Pyrenne, 33 - France, Germany and Swiss, 16 - Scandinavia, Holland and England

Spain - 6,8 - 8,1. Cities over 10 000 - 20 cities (414 000) - 37 cities (923 000), most growed Burgos, Madrid, Cordova, Sevilja
Lissabon - 30 000 - 100 000

 

[admiral drake]

Europe population

region, population in 1500, population in 1600 in million inhabitans (meaning city population, what is shown in eu2, and village population, what should be related with mp)
Iberia - 9,3 - 11,3
Italy - 10,5 - 13,3
France - 16,4 - 18,5
Benelux - 1,9 - 2,9
British Isles - 4,4 - 6,8
Scandinavia - 1,5 - 2,4
Germany - 12,0 - 15,0
Swiss - 0,8 - 1,0
Danube countries - 5,5 - 7,0
Balkans - 7,0 - 8,0
Poland - 3,5 - 5,0
Russia - 9,0 - 15,5

around 50 percents of city population was Italy and Pyrenne, 33 - France, Germany and Swiss, 16 - Scandinavia, Holland and England

Spain - 6,8 - 8,1. Cities over 10 000 - 20 cities (414 000) - 37 cities (923 000), most growed Burgos, Madrid, Cordova, Sevilja
Lissabon - 30 000 - 100 000

-i think you shouldn't do mp/population to much like history ingame
looking at those numbers it would suggest to give france 3times asmuch mp as england before land-naval slider(just incase rule doesn't pass)
-6lowlands provs with more mp then all of scandinavia just imagine the horror
- france half more mp then spain+port combined +leaderadvantage anybody wan't to try spain in this scenario ? i don't think so :rofl:

and how do you get 6,8citys over 10000

 

[ForzaA]

Sweet,
they should have atleast one historical admiral during this time.

well, ofcourse, not being a country (and thus not having a fleet) does tend to decrease the number of admirals...and admirals that DID come from the Netherlands during that time could show up "anywhere" (Spain, Austria, baltics..)

-----
land/naval 5: interesting option, but I do believe some countries (Sweden, Brandenburg, Portugal, Holland, Denmark) would need some extra MP then.

Sweden/Brandenburg to compensate for the lack of extra MP from the land slider (this is less of an issue with the larger land nations)
the others to compensate for the fact that they can't have the fleet to defend them at the usual cheap price, so they need a little more troops. (if you don't have MP anyway, you might aswell go naval to atleast have cheap ships is a reasoning I have heard quite a few times)

I haven't played with it yet.
---------

@Tonio:

Willem van de Marck, lord of Lummen (Lumey for short) - your "Lume de la Mark" - was BORN in 1542 and died in 1578.. now, I'm not sure about you, but I wouldn't send a toddler as head of an expedition to the new world. (yes, I saw various references to him.. he was a "watergeus" (basically little more than privateer) from the late sixties to his death.
Nice idea, but hey, if we can get people to explore from their birth, I'm happy to provide you all with a list of nice admirals for the Netherlands

Willem Blois van Treslong: same story basically, BORN in 1530 (d.1594) , hardly worthy of captaining a ship at the age of 0 [basically the same story, did nothing of note before the Dutch rebellion started, then was a "watergeus"]

Van Gronsveld(t) : can't find anything of note about the lords of Gronsveld.. it's a nice Dutch name, certainly, but little of note ever happened to them.


Sure, I can dig up a few nice Dutch names to stick to some admirals, and that's not a problem, I was just trying to find some historically relevant people for that

from around 1558 onward, no problem flooding the game with historical leaders (generals/admirals) .. the real trouble is before that time

 

[admiral drake]

well, ofcourse, not being a country (and thus not having a fleet) does tend to decrease the number of admirals...and admirals that DID come from the Netherlands during that time could show up "anywhere" (Spain, Austria, baltics..)

-----
land/naval 5: interesting option, but I do believe some countries (Sweden, Brandenburg, Portugal, Holland, Denmark) would need some extra MP then.

Sweden/Brandenburg to compensate for the lack of extra MP from the land slider (this is less of an issue with the larger land nations)
the others to compensate for the fact that they can't have the fleet to defend them at the usual cheap price, so they need a little more troops. (if you don't have MP anyway, you might aswell go naval to atleast have cheap ships is a reasoning I have heard quite a few times)

I haven't played with it yet.

sweden and bb are fine without boosted mp in this rule you forget that every landpower including russia , bb , france will loose the bonus of 25% extra mp now if you give them the mp for not going land that will give a unfair advantage over russia who only has better mp to counter uber leaders of sweden for a large portion of the game

fact is that if every landnation looses the 25% bonus you will see
for example :sweden 50 normal 62.5 at land 10 compared to
russia 150 normal 187.5 at land 10

if you compare those 2 you will see that infact it isn't sweden that looses more mp its russia , it isn't bb that gets hit most its france ect
for those that can't count sweden above is 12.5mp difference russia 37.5 (russia looses3times asmuch mp then sweden does in the example )

those with alot of mp will feel the difference most not those with small basemp so bb and sweden shouldn't be boosted for something that alows them to fight russia just asgood and fight denmark-england better