BC - useless ship or unique purpose?

[Zardnaar]

My army still have no armors ))) (now 1944)
I have 3 from the start)
And little aviation.

But I build a lot of Mnt and Mar, brigades, a lot of upgrades.

But Subs is a backbone of SLI naval strategy. BC-SAG is a bonus. Subs are cheap and good vs any non-ASW ships. So, Subs first.

Don't try to play with your BC-SAG as BB-SAG. If you want great surface battles, build BBs instead.

Without subs your raiding strategy is weak.
I build 6-12 lines of subs, when enough I leave 2-6 due to fear tasty gearing bonus.

INDIRECT APPROACH = SUBS RAIDING + BC-SAG SUPPORT (anti-asw, detection, patrolling)

ASAP!!! This is naval Blitzkrieg too!
You don't need IH, due to the fact of your high firedistance. Too low number of ships could fire at you. I build IH in the late '40s.



Wow! Another BC proponent! Welcome! )))

AI uses attachs, but maybe not very good way.

As I mention above IH have not much sense, just pleasant bonus)
But FC and Radar are must.

The opportunity cost of your strategy is to high IMHO. My German naval AAR still managed to have a decent enough army to KO Poland and France in 1939, and the BB SAG's managed to force an invasion of Engand in 1940. The extra IC form the conquests gives you enough to upgrade and build marines/mountaineers/mot infantry and Luftwaffe for Barbarossa 41.

I can build 3 BC SAGs of X6 BC +X6 CL by April 1940 I htink the X3 BB SAG can be built by aroun september 1940. If I sealion England around May 1940 I will only have access to 2 SAGs and X4 naval bombers.

A X12 sub, X2 CL, X6 BC produciton line in 1936 requires 94.8 IC

By BB strategy requires 60 for the BB in 1936, 7.2 IC in early 37 for X3 DD, and 5.6 IC sometime in 38/39 for X2 CVL. Total IC 77.8.

I can still churn out 15/16 Panzers by Danzig or War most with SPA and most will be Panzer III.

By Jan 8th 36 I'm building something like X1 Panzer 1, X3 36 inf, 1 militia, and one convoy. Gearing bonuses adds up and the extra IC you get in 38 and 39 will pay for them. I can also ise the BB to raid English sealanes and they sink about 18 transports when they encounter them and they can blow away any English fleet they encounter or cover the beaces for Sealion and defeat the RN in a straight up slugfest most of the time. 170 divisions and 15 Panzers ids enough for Poloand and France.

By 1944 heres the biggest erman fleet Ive ever built.

6 SAGs and 2 CTF, each with 6 of the relevent main ships and X10 DD and X2 CVL. I didn't manage to build enough subs compared to you but I wouldn't be willing to give up all my tanks to do so. Essentially I'm not convinced. Can you give me a rough number of how many subs you would have by Danzig or War? I'll try a reload and see if I can still make the Panzers, BCs, CLs+subs and have a decent enough army. Essentially I'll build X6 BC in 36, X2 CL, X3 lvl III subs and X6 lvl IV subs later and start building infantry in 38.

 

[Iwo Jima]

I think, you waste too much )

My fleet lines was

4*BC-IV lines
1(!)*CL-IV line
6*SS-IV lines (note, I should research them first)
and 5 lines for attaches Rad, S-Rad, FC, AA, S-AA.
but you could build no AA, no problems.

SLI strategy is very chip at all.

my army has now armors, just because I researched a lot of industry, spec infantry and land doctrines (this is not due to fleet). Build 8(!) Transport planes, etc. Not classic blitz. It's my choice. You would build armors, OK.


if you want Sea Lion, you could fight with only subs and transports ))))

I DoWed Ireland. Make a stronghold there. and move my army toward the center of Britain (marines, mnts, par and HQ-III. all with Art-5)

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe I build to much but I like having a few spares left over to replace losses.
If I do it the other war the war is essentially over by 42, 43 at the latest. You will just have to mop up the leftovers like NZ, Australia, Belgium, South Africa. My form of interdiction is more like complete supremacy. In UK/USA, mop up leftover fleets later and use their IC to build Uberfleet.

BTW don't discount the humble lvl III sub. They are a key part of SLI IMHO. I like your basic idea but lets see how far we can push/tweak it.

 

[Iwo Jima]

Can you give me a rough number of how many subs you would have by Danzig or War? I'll try a reload and see if I can still make the Panzers, BCs, CLs+subs and have a decent enough army. Essentially I'll build X6 BC in 36, X2 CL, X3 lvl III subs and X6 lvl IV subs later and start building infantry in 38.

Alas, I have only one save from Oct 16, 1941.

my production pics, if it could help to you.

All lines built from 1 Jan 1936. Only Rads started later.

As you see, I had 6 SS -IV lines and 2 periods later I started another 6.
Can't tell you the date of the start.


Poland was defeated by me 40 days after Danzig without armours - only Inf, Mot, Art and HQ (I didn't divide Poland with USSR, so I grab it wholly)

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm currently playing right now and I'm in late 37. My production lines are something like.

6 BC
3 III subs
6 IV subs (started early 37)
2 CL
1 Panzer
1 militia
1 transport
1 convoy
1 airfield
1 HQ (30-50% production somehting like that).
1 CAS
1 artillery (38 model)
All infantry is going to built from mid 38-39 once 39 model is researched. Not to sure how I'm gonna upgrade the Panzers and everything but I should be right. Also gonna rush the naval doctrines from early 38.

 

[Iwo Jima]

I'm currently playing right now and I'm in late 37. My production lines are something like.

6 BC
3 III subs
6 IV subs (started early 37)
2 CL
1 Panzer
1 militia
1 transport
1 convoy
1 airfield
1 HQ (30-50% production somehting like that).
1 CAS
1 artillery (38 model)
All infantry is going to built from mid 38-39 once 39 model is researched. Not to sure how I'm gonna upgrade the Panzers and everything but I should be right. Also gonna rush the naval doctrines from early 38.

don't forget about attachs.
FC is critical
Rad and S-Rad is very recommended
all other - if you wish

and don't add them in the building screen, make separate lines for faster gearing bonus.



I would stop SS-III, but maybe SS-III not such bad, assuming cost 2IC/day vs 3IC/day (SS-IV). The characteristics are very close.
So, it should be test to use only SS-III )))



I really think, that 6BC is too much ))) What is task of your fleet? If you could point accurately your goals on the ocean, maybe we could evaluate your needs )

Also, it could happened, that 1CL line would be enough. In my primer 1 CL line is more than enough to support 4 BC lines.

 

[unmerged(170347)]

Poland was defeated by me 40 days after Danzig without armours - only Inf, Mot, Art and HQ

In normal circumstances, with the armor, 40 days after Danzig or War you should be in France already.

I don't think that BC are bad, but they're not for everyone. More precisely, they're not for those who can afford BBs, such as Germany

 

[Iwo Jima]

In normal circumstances, with the armor, 40 days after Danzig or War you should be in France already.

Yes. But not all things were done historically in my game.
Fall Weiss is topic for another post )

I don't think that BC are bad, but they're not for everyone.

Exactly.

More precisely, they're not for those who can afford BBs, such as Germany

It depends on your strategy and naval tasks. Indirect Approach and Decisive Battle are different manners to operate in the sea.

In real history, Gross Admiral Raeder was proponent of Decisive Battle and BBs. Germany was building a lot of BBs but it took a lot of time. Finally, doctrine was changed, Donitz had became Chief of Navy and Germany had started wide-ranging subsea war with raiding.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm aiming for 3 BC SAG by early 1940. I dropped a Cl line in 38. I'm hoping the extra IC from the Czechs, completing central planning the the 5% intelligence minister will give me enough IC to upgrade everything.

I built the BC with FC already attached, and have just ordered X6 radar. Also managed to pump out X4 CAS and an HQ unit. The army is going to be smaller than even my traditional naval buildup games, and have 1 less HQ unit than last nights test game.

When I go for a normal sub strat (minus BC) I normally X3 lvl III as they are sufficent to sink convoys and cheap enough to replace. Historically most of the Geman sub fleet was also type VII boats or lvl III in HoI2. Next time you play try out X3 lvl II subs starting on Jan 1st 36 and see for yourself. Its only 4.8 IC.

Start convoy raiding in Sep 39? Lure out the british surface units and sink them?

 

[Iwo Jima]

I'm aiming for 3 BC SAG by early 1940. I dropped a Cl line in 38. I'm hoping the extra IC from the Czechs, completing central planning the the 5% intelligence minister will give me enough IC to upgrade everything.

I built the BC with FC already attached, and have just ordered X6 radar. Also managed to pump out X4 CAS and an HQ unit. The army is going to be smaller than even my traditional naval buildup games, and have 1 less HQ unit than last nights test game.

Now I think, that maybe even better to have only 2 lines BC
So, you will have only one 6BC SAG for operating in Atlantic. Though, it could be risky.

When I go for a normal sub strat (minus BC) I normally X3 lvl III as they are sufficent to sink convoys and cheap enough to replace. Historically most of the Geman sub fleet was also type VII boats or lvl III in HoI2. Next time you play try out X3 lvl II subs starting on Jan 1st 36 and see for yourself. Its only 4.8 IC.

I'll try.

Start convoy raiding in Sep 39? Lure out the british surface units and sink them?

You mean my game strategy?

 

[Zardnaar]

Basically your 101 tactics. I'm almost ready to have at it so to speak.

Yeah Olde Grand Fleet Aug 1939

The ones on the left are lvl IV with more in port, ones on right lvl III
30 lvl III subs (5X6 fleets)
42 lvl IV Subs (7X6 fleets)
2 BC SAG (6 BC w/FC, RA, X6 CL)
1 X3 lvl III sub fleet (AKA the leftovers)
1 raider fleet (X3 lvl IV CA, X3 lvl 3 CL AKA leftovers)
1 lvl IV CL (leftover)
18 transports
263+convoys

The luftwaffe. As starting planes +4 CAS.

The Army (very neglected)
3 HQs
128 divisions
39 militia
15 panzers w/SPA (mostly lvl III and lt tanks)
4 mountain divisions (36)
70 Inf (still alot of 36 inf)

Poor Luftwaffe and army. Still should be enough. Thats around 40 divisions. 300 IC needed on upgrades though.

Another thought. X3 lvlIII subs in 36 gives you 33 by Danzig or War. Rush destroyers lvl II and IV, rush lvl IV subs. If your light cruisers aren't actually doing much X2 lvl 4 DD lines in early 37 and X6 lvl IV subs in January 37 will give you alot of DDs and subs by Danzig or War. 72 flotillas of subs. Might even be able to get away with a single DD line.

 

[Zardnaar]

Is this something what you mean?

Hunted that fleet down and destroyed it totally.

Mauled this one as well.

Some of the subs got mauled, but I've won around a dozen encounters, BCs are hardly scratched. My subs and BCs are just sailing through the English Channel unmolested and I've sunk some big british ships as well. Nothing to modern (a few lvl IV) or larger than a BC though. Poland was annexed Sep 11, but they were really beated Sep 7 it just took the infantry a few days to march into the last VP points. Most of the Panzers and other inf were on their way to the French border. I didn't pay to much attention to the sea battles as I was busy in Poland. Any way to get a total of enemy losses?

Rushed naval techs, Donitz as leader.

 

[midget_roxx]

I think to get a good comparison you need to compare a BB fleet with a BC fleet in terms of IC days (IC * days). At the moment it seems that you're both just comparing BC fleets

 

[Iwo Jima]

I think to get a good comparison you need to compare a BB fleet with a BC fleet in terms of IC days (IC * days). At the moment it seems that you're both just comparing BC fleets

I've already compared them. You can read it above.

 

[Iwo Jima]

Zardnaar:

as I see, you have a lot of money in 1939? It's very strange to me

How many allies you have? How many BPs you've stealed?

 

[Zardnaar]

No allies, and 1-2 blueprits stolen. I've been importing cash from the USSR since early 36. I've been influenceing Italy/Bulgaria/Hungary. Romania will be destroyed later.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think to get a good comparison you need to compare a BB fleet with a BC fleet in terms of IC days (IC * days). At the moment it seems that you're both just comparing BC fleets

The superior speed asnd firing range of the BC does seem to be quite relevent despite on paper being worse than BB. The build time not so much. Compared to BB I will have another BC fleet ready in early 40 and if it was BB late 40. I wouldn't be marudering so early in the game with the BB, and the extra 6 IC I save was used to build over 30 subs. Essentialy its something like.

12 BC w/fc+33 subs
or 6 BB

If I can maul the RN, and Sealion 1940, and maul the USN Iwo Jimas arguement would be favourable.

 

[Iwo Jima]

No allies, and 1-2 blueprits stolen. I've been importing cash from the USSR since early 36. I've been influenceing Italy/Bulgaria/Hungary. Romania will be destroyed later.

I would recommend you to ally with Turkey, if Ataturk is already alive.

Turkey doing very well in Middle East.
Also Nat. Spain is very good ally, but you should ally with them before SCW finished.

Venezuela and Argentina also waiting for you )

 

[Zardnaar]

I can never get Nat Spain into the Axis. I just invade them and take Gibralter.

Ataturk is dead, and I generally don't like Turkey as an ally anyway. I'll probably invade them to.
Feb 1940 and most of the English transport fleet is on the bottom of the ocean. Lost a BC and 2 CL by not paying attention and they ran into a 25+ship english fleet with 3 CVs, and 6 BB. France was alot harder than normal, and I'm a bit behind what I would normally manage by invading Romania and Yugoslavia which have been annexed. Sealion May 1940, Spain May 1940 mehtinks followed by a middle east campaign while I prepare for Barbarossa.

Sealion. Use subs to slow RN down while bombing the hell outta the fleets. Send in BCs to mop up.

 

[midget_roxx]

The superior speed asnd firing range of the BC does seem to be quite relevent despite on paper being worse than BB. The build time not so much. Compared to BB I will have another BC fleet ready in early 40 and if it was BB late 40. I wouldn't be marudering so early in the game with the BB, and the extra 6 IC I save was used to build over 30 subs. Essentialy its something like.

The speed of a BC is limited by its screens and the firing range is worse than a BB

Ok fair enough that your ships aren't out yet, but that waiting time is worth it because of how much better the BB is compared to the BC. Using tests agianst the RN varies. For instance, using 2 lvl 4BB's I took out 5-6 British BB's who simply couldn't get into range and open fire.

I think the best way to test the effectiveness of a BB vs BC fleet is to literally have a battle between them. Now you can't just pit 3 BBs vs 3BCs, so it will have to be done according to IC days, and the number of screens.
The battles will also be very situational depending on how close the ships close in. If the screens fire as well, then perhaps the BC fleet has a better opportunity to win, whereas if they don't get all the screens firing then it might be the BB fleet's way

edit: ok i see on page 1 the stats for the firing range