Best and worst French kings

[loup99]

His "evilness" was mainly built by modern perspective, a mix of templarbooism, [...] and a complete ignorance of how worked finances back then, which was demonstrated posts earlier by another poster.

He was neither an angel nor a devil, essentially. You can criticise him for what he did but a "black legend" is unjustified and not retained by historians today.

of projection of modern culpability on the past(the need to find the roots of antisemitism in the past)

That one is wrong though, antisemitism has roots in the past, we should not minimise that it was progressively constructed and socially situated. Analysing antisemitism in the Middle Ages is by no means irrelevant or just something done in the light of finding roots. You should understand it within a given context but waving it completely like you do is inappropriate.

 

[bz249]

In Philp IV defence (I can not believe I'm doing this given how much of a evil man he was) he maybe had been worried that The Knights Templar were going to do what the Teutonic Order did to Poland but this time in France so he may have been right to get rid of them to save France. What you have to remember is that one holy order (The Teutonic Order) had all ready carved out their own state in Europe when they attacked their then allies the the Polish simply because they decided they wanted Polish lands. The Knights Templar probably would have not have attacked parts of France to try and create their own Kingdom in Europe to set up as a new base but mainstream holly wars in the middle east were all but dead and that was the soul reason for The Knights Templar existing. Without that, what was really the point of them any more? They may have needed a new reason to exist and stay very powerful and what better way to do that than simply do what The Teutonic Order had done to Poland. Philip IV could not take that risk now could he.

Though the Teutonic Order had a tendency for it, they tried the same in Hungary but were expelled before they grew too strong.

 

[MrReaper182]

His "evilness" was mainly built by modern perspective, a mix of templarbooism, of projection of modern culpability on the past(the need to find the roots of antisemitism in the past) and a complete ignorance of how worked finances back then, which was demonstrated posts earlier by another poster.

When you look at the number of wars happening under his reign, there are fews, we can't even say he liked war, he didn't. The only thing which he could be blamed for, a posteriori of course, that he maried his daughter in England. But he had no way to foresee what would happen next when his last son Charles IV died.

No he was pure evil. What ever the reason he had the The Knights Templar wiped from the face of the Earth (we never know the true reason) The way he killed their grandmasters was truly evil. He had goose fat rub on their feet then tied to a stake feet above a fire where they would of slowly cooked to death. Truly horrific even for medieval standards.

 

[JodelDiplom]

No he was pure evil. What ever the reason he had the The Knights Templar wiped from the face of the Earth (we never know the true reason) The way he killed their grandmasters was truly evil. He had goose fat rub on their feet then tied to a stake feet above a fire where they would of slowly cooked to death. Truly horrific even for medieval standards.

When placed above a burning fire you suffocate from the smoke and heat, long before you cook...

For a truly gruesome "cooked to death" method check out the cruel deeds of the ancient Greeks

 

[Paciaire]

No he was pure evil. What ever the reason he had the The Knights Templar wiped from the face of the Earth (we never know the true reason) The way he killed their grandmasters was truly evil. He had goose fat rub on their feet then tied to a stake feet above a fire where they would of slowly cooked to death. Truly horrific even for medieval standards.

Order counted ~15k members, there are barely ~550 arrests which are 100% attested and less than 200 deaths out of it, how that king was pUre eViL in comparison of mongol invasions and all contemporary conflicts that resulted in civilian deaths?? No but seriously how do you class other kings when their armies destroy whole villages or sack a city?

Think about twice how you use "wiped from faced of the Earth" complete BS, out of these 15k only a portion was located in France, thus Philippe the Fair never had the possibility to "wipe out" 15k persons dispatched in entire Europe from Scotland to Spain, from Spain to Greece/Cyprus.

 

[JodelDiplom]

Order counted ~15k members, there are barely ~550 arrests which are 100% attested and less than 200 deaths out of it, how that king was pUre eViL in comparison of mongol invasions and all contemporary conflicts that resulted in civilian deaths?? No but seriously how do you class other kings when their armies destroy whole villages or sack a city?

Think about twice how you use "wiped from faced of the Earth" complete BS, out of these 15k only a portion was located in France, thus Philippe the Fair never had the possibility to "wipe out" 15k persons dispatched in entire Europe from Scotland to Spain, from Spain to Greece/Cyprus.

Lesson is clear

Pissing off the richest 0.1% of society can carry disproportionate consequences when they throw their weight behind a slander campaign against your name in history.

Just ask Nero about it

 

[Avernite]

Lesson is clear

Pissing off the richest 0.1% of society can carry disproportionate consequences when they throw their weight behind a slander campaign against your name in history.

Just ask Nero about it

Plenty of stuff I saw as a kid (it has shifted a bit, it seems) derided the crusades sufficiently that destroying the templars seemed, if not good, at least fairly neutral.

So their campaign didn't work so well.

 

[CelticSaintAndScholar]

No he was pure evil. What ever the reason he had the The Knights Templar wiped from the face of the Earth (we never know the true reason) The way he killed their grandmasters was truly evil. He had goose fat rub on their feet then tied to a stake feet above a fire where they would of slowly cooked to death. Truly horrific even for medieval standards.

I didn't know about the grease thing, that sounds awful!

 

[JodelDiplom]

I didn't know about the grease thing, that sounds awful!

And unrealistic. See post #84

 

[loup99]

I didn't know about the grease thing, that sounds awful!

If it is just a myth as other users suggest, then it seems more like a sign of a the black legend than an awful act of cruelty. Giving examples of cruel punishment or death sentences doesn't tell us much today if you do not give any context as to what was the usual way of sentencing to death. I'm by no means an expert but we lack information in this thread to determine, so I would be cautious with declaring him to be the "pure evil".

 

[JodelDiplom]

"pure evil" is a term thrown around a lot in pop history. For some reason people get a kick out of reading about ultra evil stuff... So a lot of it is made up in order to get better book sales

 

[demanvanwezel]

"pure evil" is a term thrown around a lot in pop history. For some reason people get a kick out of reading about ultra evil stuff... So a lot of it is made up in order to get better book sales

see and here I thought the most evil man in history was a title that changed every few months