I think the sub system in MEM is pretty cool, really. A great concept. Things always need tweaking.
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Subs had some real success against naval ships in the war. It just didn't get as much notoriety as carriers slugging it out against each other, or wolfpacks attacking convoys.
off my experience can say: most of this modes r useless on one simple reason - too few ppl really install and play em. u simply will not be able to start game, unless u got preset good team of players like 6-8 ppl which is really unlikely. when u come to VNET 80% of ppl got arma 1.2 VBLV another 15% Arma1.2 ZBLV(max airstack from 4, changed to 8). 5% is rest with all their mods! personally i'd prefer ZBLV couse playing as GER or UK in 1941 u can have like 100-150 air divs alone and it's damn hard to manage all of em in groops of 4.
My experience is that organizing games through Valky is useless regardless of what version you play. EIR games, and MEM games are actually more stable than vanilla games, in my experience because the players who play them are really committed to the game.
I have been playing HOI II on mods every Sunday almost every Sunday, consistently for almot 2 years in the EIR format. Some games have been less succseful than other, but I have made 45 in one losing only one major player. Most at least get to the Russian war, that is if Germany does not get stuck in France, which is just as likely to happen in vanilla.
I have never seen a MEM game collapse because players stopped showing up. Consistency is one of the reasons to get involved with the Mod communities. Those players are for real.
I have completed, or at least come to a reasonable stopping point in the majority of the mod community games i have played. I can not say that about vanilla. If someone is unwilling to DL a patch for a mod, or figure out how that works usually it indicates they are just a part-timer anyway.
As for ZBLV, I agree the 8 airstack modification is excelent. That is why they are incorporated into every MP mod I know. Moreover, both MEM and EIR, increase the cost of units so that divisions levels are more historically accurate and easier to manage -- this also reduces CPU load, and data transfer between host and client computers, decreasing lag. 50 airstacks is just ridiculous and a-historical anyway. Modding also solves many of the problem of mass air overstacking, through changes to the command limit of commanders. Because the mass air overstacking is also ridiculous.
I have been playing HOI II on mods every Sunday almost every Sunday, consistently for almot 2 years in the EIR format. Some games have been less succseful than other, but I have made 45 in one losing only one major player. Most at least get to the Russian war, that is if Germany does not get stuck in France, which is just as likely to happen in vanilla.
I have never seen a MEM game collapse because players stopped showing up. Consistency is one of the reasons to get involved with the Mod communities. Those players are for real.
I have completed, or at least come to a reasonable stopping point in the majority of the mod community games i have played. I can not say that about vanilla. If someone is unwilling to DL a patch for a mod, or figure out how that works usually it indicates they are just a part-timer anyway.
As for ZBLV, I agree the 8 airstack modification is excelent. That is why they are incorporated into every MP mod I know. Moreover, both MEM and EIR, increase the cost of units so that divisions levels are more historically accurate and easier to manage -- this also reduces CPU load, and data transfer between host and client computers, decreasing lag. 50 airstacks is just ridiculous and a-historical anyway. Modding also solves many of the problem of mass air overstacking, through changes to the command limit of commanders. Because the mass air overstacking is also ridiculous.
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I can't really let that go unanswered. I don't think you have actually played EIR, have you?
I actually like MEM myself. And I am in Zsolo's wednesday game right now. But there are fundamental differences in the philosphy of each. MEM pared down the diplomatic system, and I enhanced it in EIR.
My biggest fundamental problem in the MEM diplomatic structure, is it tilts the game toward being a European deal, almost entirely, and so Japan is essentially forced to DOW Soviet Union. This is why:
In order to balance the relative strength of the Soviet Union against the combined strength of its potential enemies, Japan, China, and Germany, the Russian set up must be strong enough to fight all three. Therefore, if Japan does not attack Russia, then Germany certainly risks losing the whole deal inside Russia, since SU can amass most of its force against the Germans, which was balanced to fight three major powers, not one.
Therefore, best play for Japan is to attack Russia at some point.
This therefore means, that the best play for the Allies, is a direct invasion of Europe as soon as possible, either in 1942 and even 1941, and ignoring the Pacific theater, except for delaying the Japanese advance. MEM really has a tendency to follow the same strategic path: Germany attacks Russia, Japan attacks the UK and USA in the Pacific and attacks Russia, Russia gets into trouble, Allies go for early D-day.
The EIR system is designed to limit the possibility that Japan will attack Russia, one, by making China neutral after it is defeated, and so making the Japanese attack against the heartland industrial center much more difficult because they have to march through Siberia, and two, rewarding the Japanese if they succeed in the Pacific, by making China, a potential Axis ally if Barbarossa is going well, while at the same time Japan has secured the Pacific perimeter, more or less.
Because having China on the Axis side is a definite bonus that will tilt the war in Russia definitely against the Allies, USA and UK are encouraged to fight a hard campaign in the Pacific.
This fits much more closely to the real historical geopolitical shape of the conflict, as Japan's real interests were entirely about achieving dominance in Asia, and not simply being the hand maiden to German victory in Europe. The scenario where Japan attacks USSR at the same time as Germany does has always been a favourite counter-factual history thought experiment, but the fact is that there were numerous reasons the Japanese never did it. The two main ones being that capturing Siberia in no way really benefitted them directly, and the fact that it would probably have had little impact on the European war.
The Japanese entered the war on the premise that Russia was a done deal, and that the time was ripe for expansion in the Pacific.
Zsolo's MEM group that I am playing with on Wednesday prohibits the puppet china or the warlords options by a rule, something that simulates a little bit what we have tried to do in EIR.
The two systems are really about two different philosophies. MEM starts in 38, EIR in 36. MEM streamlines diplomacy by doing thing like removing New Zealand and making it part of Australia. The object with EIR is to prevent repetitious game strategy choices by adapting the diplomatic events system to allow for more options. For example, EIR also allow a mini-war between Japan and Russia at Khalkin Ghol. Now we are using a system that allows Germany to decide when it goes to war.
They are really two different animals.
I actually like MEM myself. And I am in Zsolo's wednesday game right now. But there are fundamental differences in the philosphy of each. MEM pared down the diplomatic system, and I enhanced it in EIR.
My biggest fundamental problem in the MEM diplomatic structure, is it tilts the game toward being a European deal, almost entirely, and so Japan is essentially forced to DOW Soviet Union. This is why:
In order to balance the relative strength of the Soviet Union against the combined strength of its potential enemies, Japan, China, and Germany, the Russian set up must be strong enough to fight all three. Therefore, if Japan does not attack Russia, then Germany certainly risks losing the whole deal inside Russia, since SU can amass most of its force against the Germans, which was balanced to fight three major powers, not one.
Therefore, best play for Japan is to attack Russia at some point.
This therefore means, that the best play for the Allies, is a direct invasion of Europe as soon as possible, either in 1942 and even 1941, and ignoring the Pacific theater, except for delaying the Japanese advance. MEM really has a tendency to follow the same strategic path: Germany attacks Russia, Japan attacks the UK and USA in the Pacific and attacks Russia, Russia gets into trouble, Allies go for early D-day.
The EIR system is designed to limit the possibility that Japan will attack Russia, one, by making China neutral after it is defeated, and so making the Japanese attack against the heartland industrial center much more difficult because they have to march through Siberia, and two, rewarding the Japanese if they succeed in the Pacific, by making China, a potential Axis ally if Barbarossa is going well, while at the same time Japan has secured the Pacific perimeter, more or less.
Because having China on the Axis side is a definite bonus that will tilt the war in Russia definitely against the Allies, USA and UK are encouraged to fight a hard campaign in the Pacific.
This fits much more closely to the real historical geopolitical shape of the conflict, as Japan's real interests were entirely about achieving dominance in Asia, and not simply being the hand maiden to German victory in Europe. The scenario where Japan attacks USSR at the same time as Germany does has always been a favourite counter-factual history thought experiment, but the fact is that there were numerous reasons the Japanese never did it. The two main ones being that capturing Siberia in no way really benefitted them directly, and the fact that it would probably have had little impact on the European war.
The Japanese entered the war on the premise that Russia was a done deal, and that the time was ripe for expansion in the Pacific.
Zsolo's MEM group that I am playing with on Wednesday prohibits the puppet china or the warlords options by a rule, something that simulates a little bit what we have tried to do in EIR.
The two systems are really about two different philosophies. MEM starts in 38, EIR in 36. MEM streamlines diplomacy by doing thing like removing New Zealand and making it part of Australia. The object with EIR is to prevent repetitious game strategy choices by adapting the diplomatic events system to allow for more options. For example, EIR also allow a mini-war between Japan and Russia at Khalkin Ghol. Now we are using a system that allows Germany to decide when it goes to war.
They are really two different animals.
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What I really want is a Multiplayer mod that improves the situation in the Pacific. China should be next to impossible to win and Japan should be FORCED to fight the allies in Singapore -> Indonesia -> Australia exc because of oil and rares shortage.
Well exactly, that would be optimal. That is really tough to do, if you want to create a balanced game which will take you to the European war. If Japan loses, then the Axis are basically sunk.
Both mods toughen up China substantially, and I even had one fellow lose to the Chinese ai, which is rare. Its very difficult to balance the situation where the Japanese simply can not advance, and the ai can not do so either. Especially, when dealing with a variety of skill levels of players.
I'd love to do it, but am still unable to figure out how. Lothos, the secong P-Dox programmer to take a shot at China did an excelent job with the China feeder events, that pretty much gets the AI to do what you want when both Japan and China are AI, but humans always find a way. Maybe I will take another shot at it some day.
So, basically, we changed the paradox alternate history with one, which I think is more reasonable, and more accurately reflects the historical possibilities. I just don't see Chinese defeat leading to China becoming an stable and efficient, industrialized nationa pumping out divisions for the glory of the emperor overnight. So the variant in EIR makes China neutral, while it cedes some of its best property and will trade very advantageously with Japanese, but does not become its slave puppet.
I just don't think the Japanese could have managed that. They would have got concessions and good trade deals, something along the lines of Germany's situation with Vichy France.
As for being forced to go to war for resources. In EIR, its pretty much required that Japan must take over the Netherlands.
Both mods toughen up China substantially, and I even had one fellow lose to the Chinese ai, which is rare. Its very difficult to balance the situation where the Japanese simply can not advance, and the ai can not do so either. Especially, when dealing with a variety of skill levels of players.
I'd love to do it, but am still unable to figure out how. Lothos, the secong P-Dox programmer to take a shot at China did an excelent job with the China feeder events, that pretty much gets the AI to do what you want when both Japan and China are AI, but humans always find a way. Maybe I will take another shot at it some day.
So, basically, we changed the paradox alternate history with one, which I think is more reasonable, and more accurately reflects the historical possibilities. I just don't see Chinese defeat leading to China becoming an stable and efficient, industrialized nationa pumping out divisions for the glory of the emperor overnight. So the variant in EIR makes China neutral, while it cedes some of its best property and will trade very advantageously with Japanese, but does not become its slave puppet.
I just don't think the Japanese could have managed that. They would have got concessions and good trade deals, something along the lines of Germany's situation with Vichy France.
As for being forced to go to war for resources. In EIR, its pretty much required that Japan must take over the Netherlands.
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initially we made china much harder - but people complained that it was an mp game and they didnt want to waste time v the ai in china on slower speeds. furthermore if china survives and enteres the allies the balance of the game really hits the bucket. True you could make china unallayable (dont think its hardcoded to allow nations at war to join the enemy), but still it was a problematic case.
the whole problem in mods is that its tweaked to the makers style of play and it really hard to please all people in MP.
Hope HOI3 makes it easier to balance the game in mp.
Yes, someone will always complain about something. That is the biggest problems with mods. Once people discover how moddable the game is, and that the game functions are not some immutable feature, handed down from the gods, but actually the result of real-life human activity, there is no end of "advice".
LOL. Good luck with this mod of yours Im sure you would be the first to volunteer to play japan, yeah right.
I think its plenty hard. Silverbolt got pushed back to the ocean on his first try.
EDIT: Im getting ready to play your mod this weekend, looks like you put alot of work into this new version, and Im quite excited about it.
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I let huge gaps so the ai will pour in then i would close it....had china dead by september 38 thats considering mod starts in march 38.And plus i took my time so i would get uber skill 7 general and hillfighters and stuff.
If i remember correctly u got kicked by the ai in eir which is much more easy than mem in china....or ethiopia thing lol.
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Yes, the Ethiopia debacle. I did the MEM China in 4 hours at normal speed in the first session of the Zsolo's Wednesday game.