Best way to get started?

[RedTemplar]

So I've kind of wanted to crack into CK for awhile now, but only recently actually picked the game up... So now I've got a shiny new (old) CKV, and not a clue how to quite get into it. I've read the very helpful beginner's guide post and watched a few youtube videos, but I need to just dive into the game and get my feet wet.

For a new player trying to learn his way around the game (and hopefully write an AAR one day), what's the best way to get acclimated to how the game works? Playing as a little one-province count, or a duke or king that might have more resources to play with?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

So I've kind of wanted to crack into CK for awhile now, but only recently actually picked the game up... So now I've got a shiny new (old) CKV, and not a clue how to quite get into it. I've read the very helpful beginner's guide post and watched a few youtube videos, but I need to just dive into the game and get my feet wet.

For a new player trying to learn his way around the game (and hopefully write an AAR one day), what's the best way to get acclimated to how the game works? Playing as a little one-province count, or a duke or king that might have more resources to play with?

A duchy or a small kingdom is best to learn the game. The duchy of Apulia or Brittany or the kingdom of Denmark or Poland are good choices.

 

[Count of Reval]

Kingdom of England can be a clear isolated game for learning a vassal management (try to unite British Isles).
Kingdom of Castille in 1066 - also rather isolated game - gives a lesson about diplomacy and how to pick your wars (try Reconquista).
Any Russian duchy teaches how to be creative and how to combine different elements of the game (try to unite Rus).
Any Irish county/duchy shows that alertness has its value and patience can be a virtue (try to unite Ireland).

All in all I would recommend to play England in 1066. But the first three choices are all fun and educative. For learning purpose, it's usually better to play several shorter games (about 30-50 years) and not to try complete in all costs a single one.

 

[Tsungun]

Duchy of Apulia is quite a nice easy game to start with. Unite Naples and then conquer Sicily (easy goal) and you can form the Kingdom of Sicily. Plus you are close by to the holy land so can do some crusades. Italy usually splinters so you can conquer that too and get the Italian crown.

England as has been said is an isolated kingdom with your nearest threats (Scotland and Wales) both weak and easy to conquer. It should get you used to vassal management and by the time the British Isles have been conquered under your rule you should be powerful enough to do what you want (Get the French crown!).

The Duchy of Flanders is a rich and powerful duchy which is a part of France. You have the potential to form a powerful dynasty and could work your way to get an heir on the throne of France or any other county or duchy. You will need to make use of assassinations put your wealth should fund it.

 

[TempestDK]

Personally I would go with the suggestions that Veld made.

England is quite large, and in turmoil when you start the game, so if you don't know what you are doing, it can get confusing quite fast.

Castile or any of the other Iberian realms are fun but can be hard, as you have to be careful around your backstabbing brothers and the muslim taifas. One false move and it is easily game over.

Sweden, Denmark, Apulia and Poland are good .. and some of the larger Russian principalities.

 

[sjones25]

I think the duchy of Apulia is probably best for your first game. Its usually relatively easy to form the Kingdom of Sicily. And Italy is always fun.

Denmark and Poland are both quite fun. You'll probably have to deal with Germany sooner than you'd like, but it tends to fall apart every now and then. Hit 'em while they're weak!

England is fun... if you like being the big, mean bully that makes everyone around you cower in fear. But then, why not just play as Germany?

Ireland can be fun as well, but you'll have a slow start. Just hope England doesn't come knocking before you've united a few duchies.

I'd have to disagree with Veld (for the first time ever) about Brittany. I think Brittany would be horrible for a new player! You're almost guaranteed to fight France very soon. France would absolutely destroy a new player at that point.

The same with Castile (or any other Iberian faction) You will probably lose to the Moors while you're busy fighting your brother in the kingdom next door.

 

[Count of Reval]

If the goal is to play an easy game, then - although it's often recommended - Duchy of Apulia shouldn't be the first choice either because of notorious Mathilde of Tuscany. If you play Apulia in 1066 scenario, she starts as your neighbour and the probability you might get excommunicated by her is extremely high. And this is one of the worst things that can happen to a beginner in CK - it's bad and it's hard to defend against (someone described once an excommunication as a medieval counterpart of a nuclear bomb). For the similar reason it might be wiser to avoid Germany at a beginning.

I still believe that the best way to get started after reading some tutorial AAR-s and understanding basic game mechanics is to play different short games - accepting challenges, making mistakes (even losing!) and grasping each time something important in a process about the game. (Besides, I have a feeling that the difficulty of CK is often exaggerated by the new comers, it's probably the least complicated game of Paradox's major titles. You actually can survive as Castille at your second or third attempt.)

 

[Moth Bones]

Besides, I have a feeling that the difficulty of CK is often exaggerated by the new comers, it's probably the least complicated game of Paradox's major titles.

As a newcomer to CK, I fully agree; I'm really enjoying the game, whereas I'm still very tentative with EU3 and can't even look at my copy of Arsenal Of Democracy.

One thing that's helped me; it's a bit 'gamey' but I'm in the habit of frequently saving and if I'm enjoying a game and then utterly mess it up I can reload an earlier save. This helped early on when I didn't understand the badboy mechanic and thought that 'Reputation +2' was something desirable, leading to the Kingdom of Scotland drowning in flames.

Reading AARs while playing helps, too.

 

[Ruwaard]

I'm surprised to see that no one recommended the duchy of Bohemia (Prague and Plzen are rich parts of the demesne, other parts are poorer), which starts out as vassal of the HRE (Germany, Italy and Burgundy) and has claims on the polish duchy of Silesia (or all counties of that duchy). Once rich enough you can get the title duke of Moravia and establish the kingdom of Bohemia; however the smartest thing to do is to wait with the creation of the title of king of Bohemia after the HRE has helped you to conquer Silesia from Poland.
Besides that, the game is like sjones25' description of a Poland or Denmark game.

 

[RedTemplar]

Jeez... Lots of good suggestions! I'm gonna give a few of these games a shot this weekend, and see if I can get a feel for the game a little.. I'm rather excited to learn the game, and when my two current AARs (EU3 and HOI2) wrap up, I definitely want to dive into a big AAR project.

 

[SkyShadowing]

Hey all, this is a pretty relevant thread, so advice. I just picked up CK on Impulse when it was on sale (with Deus Vult), and I'm having trouble.

I don't want to start with a big kingdom (I'd like the challenge of making a small, historically irrelevant nation a major player, especially because I plan on converting into EU3W (if there's a working converter for that, please point me in the direction).

Anyways, I first tried a Count of Byzantium. However, Byzantium appears to repeatedly get messed up by the Turks, so I moved away to the British Isles, trying Gwynnyd. I had a good thing going, formed Wales, but I had to quit because an overly aggressive England decided to eat me.

So I moved onto Munster. Again, I had a good thing going, but somehow England and Scotland decided to target me with claims, and both declared separate wars on me simultaneously (my Breton allies deciding they'll just enjoy the show).

I'm sick of getting kicked around by bigger powers. I've seen that people have moved from Gwynnyd to Wales to England. Any tips? My army is just way, way, way too small to fend off the rabid expansionist tendencies of England, especially because they'll keep coming at me.

 

[TempestDK]

Hey all, this is a pretty relevant thread, so advice. I just picked up CK on Impulse when it was on sale (with Deus Vult), and I'm having trouble.

I don't want to start with a big kingdom (I'd like the challenge of making a small, historically irrelevant nation a major player, especially because I plan on converting into EU3W (if there's a working converter for that, please point me in the direction).

Anyways, I first tried a Count of Byzantium. However, Byzantium appears to repeatedly get messed up by the Turks, so I moved away to the British Isles, trying Gwynnyd. I had a good thing going, formed Wales, but I had to quit because an overly aggressive England decided to eat me.

So I moved onto Munster. Again, I had a good thing going, but somehow England and Scotland decided to target me with claims, and both declared separate wars on me simultaneously (my Breton allies deciding they'll just enjoy the show).

I'm sick of getting kicked around by bigger powers. I've seen that people have moved from Gwynnyd to Wales to England. Any tips? My army is just way, way, way too small to fend off the rabid expansionist tendencies of England, especially because they'll keep coming at me.

Well counts are a big challenge ... and even the best plans for expansion can go awry in moments when the big dog in the yard decides to pick you as his next meal. As an unexperienced player, I would still advice a medium sized duchy to play-test as, to get the feel for the game, and how things work. Then you can take the small insignificant count challenge.

Ireland can work for you, and maybe if you try again, both England and Scotland will leave you alone. You can never trust your allies. They re only really good as a deterent, because the AI seems to calculate ally strength, when deciding to take you on. But even if your allies had joined the war, you shouldn't expect them to defend your meager lands, but instead go for the opponent's lands, or maybe just stand around at home for a few years.

The problem with being a vassal count is that you can do well, play nice with your lieges, and still get taken out suddenly for apparently no reason at all. F.x. if you are an english count/duke, and the english king ends up with a personal demesne neighbouring your realm, then eventually he will claim your title, and then you might gear up for war, or expand somewhere out of the way, as he WILL press those claims eventually. Often sooner rather than later.

Sadly the game is not really geared towards being a nice vassal, so you will want power and independence quite fast.

As counts, try one of the northern irish ones (there is an unclaimed duchy) or maybe counties like Rhodos or Lübeck.

Rhodos is good, as it is an iland, and not really near the turkish advances nor the byzantium personal demesne. You can keep loyal, and maybe pick up more provinces amongst the rebelling vassals, and hope the turks don't come too close. I think you just need to take on Samos to gain a ducal title ... which suddenly brings you in line of succession for the empire, as the various other princes either rebel or gets swallowed up by the turks.

Lübeck is a fairly rich and powerful county who starts independent. problem is, that his rival the tribal chief of Mecklemburg has a claim on you from the start, and will attack within months if you do not do anything. Only real way to survive is to declare allegience to either Denmark or Germany. This will keep Mecklemburg off your back for a while. I tried a game as Lübeck and declared to Denmark, as I thought it would be easier to escape from them than Germany. The danish king was very active in beating down the Mecklemburgians, and that helped me expand into that area. Also I was powerful enough (and the danish king will most likely grant you the Holstein ducal title as soon as he creates it) to not worry too much about being able to beat back the danish king if he should want my lands, and he has a small personal demesne. You can then use the danes to help you expand along the coast, and once powerful enough you can declare independence and then pick on the north german provinces, or maybe even taking over the danish kingdom if you so wish. I wanted my own kingdom, and eventually expanded all they way down into Netherlands to create my own king-title (DVIP More Kingdoms mod) .. until I found a way to create my own Wendish king title with some minor modding.

 

[KPJ]

Hey all, this is a pretty relevant thread, so advice. I just picked up CK on Impulse when it was on sale (with Deus Vult), and I'm having trouble.

I don't want to start with a big kingdom (I'd like the challenge of making a small, historically irrelevant nation a major player, especially because I plan on converting into EU3W (if there's a working converter for that, please point me in the direction).

Anyways, I first tried a Count of Byzantium. However, Byzantium appears to repeatedly get messed up by the Turks, so I moved away to the British Isles, trying Gwynnyd. I had a good thing going, formed Wales, but I had to quit because an overly aggressive England decided to eat me.

So I moved onto Munster. Again, I had a good thing going, but somehow England and Scotland decided to target me with claims, and both declared separate wars on me simultaneously (my Breton allies deciding they'll just enjoy the show).

I'm sick of getting kicked around by bigger powers. I've seen that people have moved from Gwynnyd to Wales to England. Any tips? My army is just way, way, way too small to fend off the rabid expansionist tendencies of England, especially because they'll keep coming at me.

I would recommend trying Munster again (Or Leinster, Connacht). I found uniting Ireland was a great way to learn about all of the mechanics of the game-- it's not easy, you have a lot of climbing to do! Use marriages and claims to the best of your ability to try to form Kingdom of Ireland (and Wales?). During my first longterm game (which I played as Connacht) I had sworn allegiance at various times to the Kings of Scotland, England, or France (accept vassalization in the peace deals). This can save your 'home territory' in a war, and protect you from competing kings. Eventually your liege will suffer realm duress due to a weak king, that is your time to gain independence. The other option is that, as a vassal, you can continue to expand against the other Dukes and Counts of Ireland (who may be independent or vassals of England, Scotland, or France) until you have the necessary titles to claim King of Ireland, automatically ending your vassalization.

By the time I decided to call this game quits, it was because I had united Ireland, Wales, and Portugal under one monarch, owned extensive territory in Spain and Western North Africa, had beaten England and France in wars, and simply had nowhere left to feasibly expand.

 

[RedTemplar]

So I messed around with Flanders for awhile, and I have a few lingering questions...

- Is there any advantage to maintaining a large personal demesne, or is it more effective to grant out titles to my vassals and keep things decentralized?

- Is there a way to ONLY display messages about childbirth when it's in my personal lands? It seems like I can only get NO messages, or get one everytime anyone in my whole bloody kingdom has a kid, even if they're miles away and under another duke.

- When it comes to war... If I were to declare war on another Christian count, would it just be a matter of me against him, or would our two kingdoms end up in a big old slugfest?

- And finally, as a small ruler, be it a duchy or a county, what are the odds of gaining ANYTHING from a Crusade? It seems like a bad idea all around.. Going bankrupt from army maintenance, never actually gaining any land since the bigger nobles get dibs on things... What do I gain from sending my little Count's army off to fight?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

1.There is a limit to how large a demense you can control directly (the so-called 'demesne-limit). When you go over that limit, you will start to make less gold, your ruler might get stressed and then crazed and revolts in provinces will happen.

Your demesne-limit is based on your ruler's intrigue (only your rulers not his spymaster) and his title-level

Count = intrigue*0.25
Duke = intrigue*0.5
King = intrigue*1
Byzantine Emperor as primary title = intrigue*2

2. No, there isn't.

3. If you declare war on a count who has a liege, then that liege will always get involved to. If you are not an independent ruler then your liege will also get involved in the war. If he or you have allies then they might also get invoived in the war.

4. As a small ruler there is no need to go Crusading.

 

[Count of Reval]

So I messed around with Flanders for awhile, and I have a few lingering questions...

- Is there any advantage to maintaining a large personal demesne, or is it more effective to grant out titles to my vassals and keep things decentralized?

Some advantages of large personal demesne: more money, more troops independent of vassals' loyalty (useful, for example, to suppress rebellions), lower probability of realm duress (because you have less vassals who might spark it), faster spread of advances/culture, more flexibility (you have extra titles available to give away if necessary).

Some disadvantages: less (highest tier) vassals means less accumulation of prestige, large army costs more (only vassals' troops are free (if army upkeep is set above 0)), less advance discoveries in realm (each vassal's capital researches by its own).

 

[TempestDK]

Some advantages of large personal demesne: more money, more troops independent of vassals' loyalty (useful, for example, to suppress rebellions), lower probability of realm duress (because you have less vassals who might spark it), faster spread of advances/culture, more flexibility (you have extra titles available to give away if necessary).

Some disadvantages: less (highest tier) vassals means less accumulation of prestige, large army costs more (only vassals' troops are free (if army upkeep is set above 0)), less advance discoveries in realm (each vassal's capital researches by its own).

... and all that is assuming that by large personal demesne, you are still at 80-100% effeciency ... anything less than that, and you will start seeing bad events and effects happening to your realm and your ruler.

 

[KPJ]

- And finally, as a small ruler, be it a duchy or a county, what are the odds of gaining ANYTHING from a Crusade? It seems like a bad idea all around.. Going bankrupt from army maintenance, never actually gaining any land since the bigger nobles get dibs on things... What do I gain from sending my little Count's army off to fight?

As a small ruler, but well-enough positioned, financed, and armed, you stand to gain a lot in crusades. Historically (if I remember correctly), it was the Duke of Toulouse who became the King of Jerusalem. Crusader Kings is designed to make this sort of thing possible. Southern French and Holy Roman Empire dukes are well-placed to gain new Duke titles or even create a Kingdom in Africa, Iberia, and the Levant.

 

[postm00v]

4. As a small ruler there is no need to go Crusading.

Not entirely true.
I've managed to take the Count of Nice ( modded it, because Nice is a bishopric ) to the King of Egypt,Africa and Jerusalem.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Not entirely true.
I've managed to take the Count of Nice ( modded it, because Nice is a bishopric ) to the King of Egypt,Africa and Jerusalem.

I just said that there is no need to go crusading (your piety-loss can easily be take care of by events and so on). That doesn't mean you can't go crusading