Bi-polar world? (aka 2 Europes)

[PostPaintBoy]

Althogh the idea of not having Europe as the center of the world has been raised in many mods, i have another, more interesting idea, that could potentally add a good degree of late game challange. What if there were Two areas of accelerated learning with the world, completly seperate from each other.

The first question, is obviously, where? The most logical locations (in my mind) are China, Indochina, and maybe one or two Indonesion powers (playing a role similar to great britan). The other possible location would be a location within the Americas.

The reasons behind the two possibilities are simple. Firstly, there are enough provences to support the number to nations needed to have a second europe. Secondly, they are far removed from Europe and the Middle East. This is important for two reasons. Obviously, it means a few centuries would pass in game before the two 'europes' discover each other, and then a little while before major interactions and war between the two. Secondly, it allows for a good deal more indipendance in our actions as modders, because giant changes in the timeline would be possible without creating logical gaps in regard to the rest of the world.

Many may ask, why not India? My reasons for dismissing India as a viable option are twofold. Firstly, it is to close to Europe. For example, the Abbsaid Caliphate starts with knowlage of some of the Northren Muslim states. Secondly, India has less options in terms of expansion. Wheras a europe in the far east allows for expansion via colonization into Siberia and Indonesia/Austrailia or by Force into India and Central Asia, India would either go east, conquering Indochina, or go west into Persia, leading to early interaction with Europe.

The reasons, in my mind, for having a Bi-Polar world, are manyfold. First, it would create a whole new experience, not only creating exciting new nations to play with important conflicts, it would also allow one to view the existing game in a new light, especially in terms of interactions with Europe. Secondly, it would allow for a lot more fun in the late game. The winners of Europe would have emerged, and the weak pagens would have been conquered. This usually is the death of Fun, but in a world with two europes, it would be amazing as the superpowers of both europes would clash worldwide.

 

[loki1232]

Wow I really agree.

 

[orimazd]

This is a very good idea. Unfortunately the map of America does not allow for great development there. I have no experience whatsoever with modifying maps, like the vast majority of yall, but could it be done in a fashion that the rest of the world goes unedited, province numbers and all, except for the Americas? Of course, some alterations would be necesasry--its not like we need two Caspian Seas, for example. I recall there being quite a few province IDs remaining unused with the current map, anyways.

Another much easier possibility would be of making superpower in Indonesia. I don't have the patience to read through all of Ahmad AA's work on Indochina (his work probably does not touch Indonesia, but I could obviously be wrong, as I have read only a few pages of it). Atlantis lovers could rejoice at this

 

[unmerged(55521)]

Champa already is built with thought that chineese has latin tech group.
Champa turns to colonisation of Indonesia about 1590. Before that colonisation there is started by Mallaca, Atjeh, Brunei, Makkasar and one or two chineese states. Before that chineese has some kind "chineese treaty of trodessilas" so most of chineese wnet to west coast of amerikas, where already Japan started colonistion.
I think that other region could be - chineese states, manchu, korea, japan.

While I would like that USA would be filled with some states, becouse its always stays empty (even not talking about those kanzas grain provs), it is not very plosible. From where did it start?
Only maybe if some central american indians colonised and intermarieged with local tribes and then this all fall apart, but still - it would take more than 200 years before 1419 which is new interegnum history...

 

[Incompetent]

Here's an even more radical suggestion: we abolish tech groups altogether, by which I mean we put every single country in the middle 'Muslim' tech group. Not as a final arrangement, but just to see what happens. Interregnum is in beta after all.

What effects would this have? How will we know unless we've playtested it?

Once we've levelled everyone like this and established a 'baseline' for how fast countries advance (which also depends heavily on their size, wealth and DP setting, don't forget), we start adjusting tech group relative to the 'standard' Muslim tech to make countries and regions faster or slower for balance and flavour. If the innovation gap is meant to open up much later than 1419, we introduce it not by setting initial tech groups 'teleologically' based on where countries are supposed to be in 1819, but by events that change tech group at the appropriate point in time, sometimes with strings attached. The idea would be that the big differences in tech group and tech level emerge over the course of the game, as different cultural phenomena affect different regions. And while Europe might have a runaway lead by the end, it could just as well be the Arab world, India, China, or several rival areas of high technology, depending on how the game plays out.

 

[joriandrake]

This is a very good idea. Unfortunately the map of America does not allow for great development there. I have no experience whatsoever with modifying maps, like the vast majority of yall, but could it be done in a fashion that the rest of the world goes unedited, province numbers and all, except for the Americas? Of course, some alterations would be necesasry--its not like we need two Caspian Seas, for example. I recall there being quite a few province IDs remaining unused with the current map, anyways.

Another much easier possibility would be of making superpower in Indonesia. I don't have the patience to read through all of Ahmad AA's work on Indochina (his work probably does not touch Indonesia, but I could obviously be wrong, as I have read only a few pages of it). Atlantis lovers could rejoice at this

why not use WATK or MYmap ?

 

[loki1232]

Here's an even more radical suggestion: we abolish tech groups altogether, by which I mean we put every single country in the middle 'Muslim' tech group. Not as a final arrangement, but just to see what happens. Interregnum is in beta after all.

What effects would this have? How will we know unless we've playtested it?

Once we've levelled everyone like this and established a 'baseline' for how fast countries advance (which also depends heavily on their size, wealth and DP setting, don't forget), we start adjusting tech group relative to the 'standard' Muslim tech to make countries and regions faster or slower for balance and flavour. If the innovation gap is meant to open up much later than 1419, we introduce it not by setting initial tech groups 'teleologically' based on where countries are supposed to be in 1819, but by events that change tech group at the appropriate point in time, sometimes with strings attached. The idea would be that the big differences in tech group and tech level emerge over the course of the game, as different cultural phenomena affect different regions. And while Europe might have a runaway lead by the end, it could just as well be the Arab world, India, China, or several rival areas of high technology, depending on how the game plays out.

Hey i suggested this (in the Europe vs. RotW thread)! But seriously i really like the idea. So there would be complex chains of events that ended with various nations getting higher tech types. Also, building Wonderous things could give temporary bonuses. Would america and africa have the muslim tech as well?

 

[MattyG]

While some of the ideas written here have been discussed elsewhere (loki, Ahemed, others too) it is only here that I finally come to accept and see the possibilities and importance of placing more power in the East.

In reviewing some of the Champa material I was really concered by the manner in which Ahmed seems to be almost cavalier in upping the tech status of China and the others in the region. But I get it now, and I think it can work and is plausible.

Lightening strikes the Imperial Palace, and instead of turning the Emperor inwards and rejecting the outside world and new ideas, he responds in the opposite manner.

The big challenge will be how to prevent a SP player of the high-tech China state from rampaging westward and having it all too easy. In Europe, there are lots of other powerful states to face you down. Likewise, how a group of players playing in the East can have a balanced environment where five or so nations can duke it out with roughly equal resources. But it isn't impossible to resolve and I look forward to these ideas evolving.

 

[Incompetent]

Hey i suggested this (in the Europe vs. RotW thread)! But seriously i really like the idea. So there would be complex chains of events that ended with various nations getting higher tech types. Also, building Wonderous things could give temporary bonuses.

Yep. I gave my ideas for tech-changing in another thread. I think you're right about suggesting the levelling off before me - credit where credit's due

Would america and africa have the muslim tech as well?

Temporarily, to see what happens. There are good reasons why America and Africa would be disadvantaged, at least initially, but we can't really judge the effect of tech group (as opposed to other factors) unless we do 'control runs' with equal tech groups.

@Matty: This is why I think allowing a single state to control most of China too early would be bad news for balance. Vanilla deals with China by effectively slapping it with special handicaps from Confucian religion, 'China' tech, crazy unavoidable revolts and a stupid AI, but it'd be better for our purposes if we could do things more organically by starting with a number of Chinese states that don't have the power or legitimacy to call themselves 'the Middle Kingdom'. It should certainly be a possible outcome that the Chinese empire is reborn, but by no means easy to achieve, and a fully reunified China ought to end up with enough BB and internal troubles along the way that further conquest is ill-advised. From a Chinese perspective, the ideal resurrection would be for the Mandate of Heaven to settle on a particular figure, who then shows no mercy to any pretenders, smashing them in quick succession and becoming master of most/all the Middle Kingdom. Quietly diploannexing everyone over a period of 100 years isn't really the same.

 

[loki1232]

I had an idea for china: what if china became the HRE. It would make sense with the idea of the Mandate of heaven and the Middle kingdom. It would screw up Europe, but then isn't that why we have interregnum?

 

[unmerged(55521)]

Lightening strikes the Imperial Palace, and instead of turning the Emperor inwards and rejecting the outside world and new ideas, he responds in the opposite manner.
The big challenge will be how to prevent a SP player of the high-tech China state from rampaging westward and having it all too easy. In Europe, there are lots of other powerful states to face you down. Likewise, how a group of players playing in the East can have a balanced environment where five or so nations can duke it out with roughly equal resources. But it isn't impossible to resolve and I look forward to these ideas evolving.

Westwards?
Make chineese anti-cavalery and Chagaitai in deserts will eat them.
Make supply limit at chagatai provs lower. Atritition will eat them.
Make Chagatai provs richness conected with its owner richness. If it is controled not by Hui sultunate, Uzbeck, then it fires events which makes them dirty poor . Also add RR if owned by chineese.
Event for ai Chagatai: (Voluntiers against chineese invasion. Gain 30 000 CAV.) (Fortress +1 at coridor provinces.)
(Inform player that it is not worth. (Triger if (not ai) chineese at war with owner of those prov.))

 

[unmerged(55521)]

About tech groups:
If Interregnum would have MYMAP, I would argue that only Buganda deserves exotic from beginning.
Now possibly only Ditchali (and Mongolia). I would like that american indians are not just teritories to grab.
I argue that Congo and Zimbabwe (possibly Ethiopia) recieves coastal provinces, Mali some more, too. So their isolation is less so, better tech group.
Also must be remembered that if rich enought country gain land level 11, then it builds lvl 3 fortresses. This means that they become very hard to conquer. This was last time when I tried to conquer Mali with Cordoba. With their high atrition, I get few provs from their completely controled West Africa and decided that it is not worth.


But I think that there should be impleted event against major power diploanexion. So if some country with more than 5-7 provinces is vasaled, it fires event about that they are too proud to be vasal country and so they break vasalage. It will stop that disgusting major diploanexion. In last game ūbersize Bavaria diploanexed some may be 8 prov Savoy... It would help against chineese states diploanexion.

 

[Incompetent]

Westwards?
Make chineese anti-cavalery and Chagaitai in deserts will eat them.
Make supply limit at chagatai provs lower. Atritition will eat them.
Make Chagatai provs richness conected with its owner richness. If it is controled not by Hui sultunate, Uzbeck, then it fires events which makes them dirty poor . Also add RR if owned by chineese.
Event for ai Chagatai: (Voluntiers against chineese invasion. Gain 30 000 CAV.) (Fortress +1 at coridor provinces.)
(Inform player that it is not worth. (Triger if (not ai) chineese at war with owner of those prov.))

No need for craziness in the Gobi Desert. 'Expanding Westwards' for China generally means muscling into all those juicy provinces in India, having secured Indochina. If China's stupid enough to waste BB on grabbing poor wrong-religion, wrong-culture desert provinces off the Chagatai and losing all its troops to attrition, let it

But I think that there should be impleted event against major power diploanexion. So if some country with more than 5-7 provinces is vasaled, it fires event about that they are too proud to be vasal country and so they break vasalage. It will stop that disgusting major diploanexion. In last game ūbersize Bavaria diploanexed some may be 8 prov Savoy... It would help against chineese states diploanexion.

Good idea in the case of diplovassalisation, but what if the vassalisation is due to a personal union, or because the vassal just got completely owned in a war with its new master? What I am in favour of are events to encourage the reappearance of majors if they disappear over the course of the game, particularly those with a strong cultural, religious or political identity.

 

[unmerged(55521)]

No need for craziness in the Gobi Desert. 'Expanding Westwards' for China generally means muscling into all those juicy provinces in India, having secured Indochina. If China's stupid enough to waste BB on grabbing poor wrong-religion, wrong-culture desert provinces off the Chagatai and losing all its troops to attrition, let it



Good idea in the case of diplovassalisation, but what if the vassalisation is due to a personal union, or because the vassal just got completely owned in a war with its new master? What I am in favour of are events to encourage the reappearance of majors if they disappear over the course of the game, particularly those with a strong cultural, religious or political identity.

For antidiploanexion - create exceptions or specialisations. Like antivasalisation event from 1450-1470 in which not for Bavaria or else if they had some event vasals.
At least this antianexion event which breaks vasalage will make rarer those diploanexion.

If human player china wants india, let them get event which destroys their stability, and turn most of their neiborghs voluntiers in war with chineese.

Just inform human player that that and that region is not for you! Or else you will get some disgusting events.

 

[MattyG]

Westwards?

India is west of China and is extremely rich. Then, through Persia to the heart of your Caliphate. Also west of China.

 

[unmerged(55521)]

India is west of China and is extremely rich. Then, through Persia to the heart of your Caliphate. Also west of China.

But I think that we must add event that gives to noone chance to control Tibet. It is very logical (it is very unexpected that most of Tibet is not PTI in vanilla) cos IRL it is almost noncrossable area and also poorly controled. So if Tibet is not your, if by events you can not get vasallage and military access, then it is not possible to move your armies behind hostile enemy tibet to get to India. It is only logical that Tibet is not controled to anybody except themselves. Also that it is not crossable.

Left is Burma and Arakan and Sea.

So give something them against chineese.

Sea?
If player truly wants he would attack alone 2 prov indian minor and take one prov to himself and minor as vasal. And then place armies there and slovely expand placdarm.

 

[MattyG]

But I think that we must add event that gives to noone chance to control Tibet. It is very logical (it is very unexpected that most of Tibet is not PTI in vanilla) cos IRL it is almost noncrossable area and also poorly controled. So if Tibet is not your, if by events you can not get vasallage and military access, then it is not possible to move your armies behind hostile enemy tibet to get to India. It is only logical that Tibet is not controled to anybody except themselves. Also that it is not crossable.

Left is Burma and Arakan and Sea.

So give something them against chineese.

Sea?
If player truly wants he would attack alone 2 prov indian minor and take one prov to himself and minor as vasal. And then place armies there and slovely expand placdarm.

OK, I was trying just to have some fun there.

Anyway, most of the ideas you come up with are fine, but are a coding nightmare.

 

[unmerged(55521)]

OK, I was trying just to have some fun there.

Anyway, most of the ideas you come up with are fine, but are a coding nightmare.

Trying to control game, to create game balance is always coding nightmare.
Especialy midle and late game...

 

[unmerged(36449)]

A second power center to offset Europe..hmmmm

If you count the Middle East in the sorta Europe part then the next two most logical and plausible candidates would be China and India.

India does have its' problems though but could do nicely as the counter part to China that the Caliphate does to Europe.

India historically was of influence to the Southeast of it, generally look at the flow of Hindu religion in the region to get a better idea of what I am talking about.

China is so obvious as an alternate that no further discussion need be spent upon it other then what causes them to keep looking outward and that can be handled with a simple decision by the Son of Heaven to just keep looking for tribute states...

 

[unmerged(36826)]

From a Chinese perspective, the ideal resurrection would be for the Mandate of Heaven to settle on a particular figure, who then shows no mercy to any pretenders, smashing them in quick succession and becoming master of most/all the Middle Kingdom. Quietly diploannexing everyone over a period of 100 years isn't really the same.

Perhaps an event triggering if you own a certain number of chinese provinces that forces the other states to either align with you or declare war to give the unification of china a bang

edit: Just read exactly this in the other thread o