Big big battles in CK timespan?

[Amadís de Gaula]

Well, there were some, at least in Spain, but I don´t know if the battle model would be able to handle them.

The huge battles of the Reconquista were:

- Navas de Tolosa (1212): Muslims - 150.000, Christians - 60.000.
- Salado (1340): Muslims - 200.000, Christians - 55.000.
- Alarcos (1195): Muslims - between 150.000 and 200.000, Christians, between 25.000 and 40.000.


This numbers are estimations of modern historians. Contemporary arab sources of the era give, for example, the number of 600.000 for the muslim armies of Navas de Tolosa and Alarcos.

Too many Knights?

 

[unmerged(8303)]

I know nothing of the CK battle system, so I am unsure how battles will be handled, but - if I had to guess I'd say battles like that would not be modeled since they're extremes rather than the norms.

I'm not sure even M: TW which focused on warfare modeled battles that well.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

That´s what I´m pointing.

In certain cases (Almorávides, Almohades and Benimerines) there were calls for Yihad in one side and for Crusade in other. Not to mention the fact tha the whole Spain felt the fear and anguish of the muslims again reaching north, which (temporarillly) united the kingdoms against the menace. Huge efforts were made on both sides.

Great if there are events or something simulating this 3 muslim attempts of reuniting and conquering all Al-Andalus. That would make the game more historical.

 

[Norgesvenn]

There were battles elsewhere than in Spain, I think.

Horns of Hattin... the Hundred Years War...

 

[unmerged(8399)]

Amadís, those figures you say are given by modern historians are still way too high, just on logistical issues they are just impossible. To give you an example, while ancient sources put the Byzantine army at Manzikert over 1 million, modern military historians put it around 25.000. The key here is military historians, while they are usually aware of the logistical problems and use as main source payment documents, general historians just guess on the sources, just reducing their numbers by a given figure many times. I can´t say what the real figures at El Salado, for instance, could be, but for sure the Benimerines were not capable of transporting 200.000 troops across the Strait.
As a reference figure I remember that in 1390 the courts of Castile voted a tax to keep an army of 4.000 lances "in reserve" ie. paying the local lords some funds in exchange for the promise to recruit those lances in case of war, but there were complains several years after that it was never possible to recruit even 1.000 lances.

 

[Endre Fodstad]

Military historians are actually more known for taking figures given in sources at face value than whatever a general historian is - in that most military historians are retired officers with the hots for historical warfare. There are, of course, exceptions, but then again a military historian who is not an ex-officer is usually just a regular historian who has decided to freeze his career by being interested in military matters(god forbid).

The calculation of numbers is usually the province of mathemathically-minded historians. Dennis Sinor is no military historian but loves calculating battle numbers based on logistical concerns.

Incidentially, I find the numbers given above way too large myself.

EF

 

[Alhazen]

Bouvines, Courtai, Bremule..

 

[unmerged(8915)]

Originally posted by Amadís de Gaula
[B.........
The huge battles of the Reconquista were:

- Navas de Tolosa (1212): Muslims - 150.000, Christians - 60.000.
- Salado (1340): Muslims - 200.000, Christians - 55.000.
- Alarcos (1186): Muslims - between 150.000 and 200.000, Christians, between 25.000 and 40.000.

..........

Too many Knights? [/B]

yes, and at marathon the persians too had 1.000.000 troops authentic records are cool, but take it w/ a grain of salt actually, a wagon of salt. the numbers are chronically inflated by the scribes to add importance to the events

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

He, he I already knew it.

Of course Norgesvenn, there was the 100 years war and many others. What I meant was that in Agincourt it was 7.000 english against 19.000 french, IIRC, and those Reconquista battles were really huge.


Figures are correct, the whole Peninsula was implicated . What was inflated wre the arab sources, what I´ve given you are contemporary estimations.

Here are some historians that have written about this battles (you´ll see many of them not spaniards):

- Anwar Chejne.
- John Laffin.
- Rachel Airé.
- C-E. Dufourcq.
- Paulino Iradiel...

All of them give +/- the same numbers. Most recent book in which you can find the same figures is "La cruzada del Sur" (J. A. Cebrián), quite a success now adays in Spain.

I can provide you with bibliography, in case you are interested.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

About logistics it took a long time for the muslims to prepare the expeditions and don´t forget that were supported by Al-Andalus. Christian armies suffered from hunger in Navas de Tolosa, weren´t as much prepared as the muslims.

BTW Cebrián affirms in the book I mentioned that in Navas de Tolosa Christians were between 60.000 - 80.000, and muslims around 150.000. Al Nasir had BTW tons of money to finance that army. And about losses, numbers were terrific.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Ah, here are 2 links, one in english, other in french (there are tons, btw) for Navas de Tolosa, check the figures .

http://www.e-moyenage.com/lasnavas.htm
http://www.deremilitari.org/tolosa.htm

What I´m trying to say is this 3 battles deserve an event or something like that (a crusade call?), because they may be (I don´t really know) the bigger (in terms of armies involved) of this era, and for sure among the most importants.

 

[unmerged(8399)]

Endre you are right about the mathematically minded historians, but I was thinking of another kind of military historian, of course not the retired and more or less illustrated army officer, but modern specialist seeking documentary evidence, mainly payment documents. Wherever they are found they provide a much more accurate picture of the armies of their time.
Amadís, all those historians are doing is just repeating the numbers given by ancient sources or modifying it by a given factor. Wherever payment documents are produced they show a very different picture, unfortunately they are lacking in the XII-XIII century. But there are for the XIV century, and numbers are always below 10.000

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Prolly Aryaman. But anyway there´s a general consensus on that matter.

On the other side, you have to think on the sides. Let´s take a look again at Navas.

On one side:

- Castilla.
- Aragon.
- Navarra.
- Portugal.

With all they had, specially Castille.

On the other side, Miramamolín and the Almohade Empire at full strenght throwing everything.

Add the important fact that there was a feeling that it´s "our destiny at risk" these battles had.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Ah, Aryaman, and the Batalla del Salado (SXIV) is extraordinarilly well documented.

About Salado some muslims call it "the worst defeat ever suffered by the muslims".

Those were huge battles. But I recognize they were quite different of the usual medieval warfare.

 

[Aetius]

Even if the numbers are true, how many were actually involved in the fighting? Also knights were "defined" differently in Iberia since there was a peasant-knight class.

The numbers given for the Las Navas de Tolosa battle in "Europe in the High Middle Ages" by William Chester Jordan were 60 000 on the Castilian side. So it seems to match your numbers. Not perhaps the best source though....

 

[unmerged(8399)]

Taking as an example the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, King Alsonso VIII of Castile in a letter sent to the Pope after the battle, states that the King of Navarra showed with scarcely 200 knights, while the king of Aragon had a similar number.




In a contemporary and no less crucial battle, Bouvines (1214) according to G. Duby there were around 12.000 inf and 4.000 cav involved in the battle counting both armies, the french being slightly superior in numbers.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Hi Aetius, the numbers I´ve given can be found in a lot of books. There are differences, anyway. For example in El Salado, while everybody agrees that there were 40.000 in the Castillian army, figures for the rest of the christian side differ a bit.

About the involvement and losses, those were terrific battles. You have to count on the "drama", the sense of defending christendom or Islam, defending home, and a way of living for both sides. For example, batlle of Olmedo in SXV (between supporters and antagonists of Álvaro de Luna), lasted a day and there were few killed, less than 100. Navas battle was a bath of blood, most sources agree around 60.000 of the muslim army died. The fight around Al Nasir fortress, against the legendary "black guardians"...

Hi Aryaman. Apart from the knights kings brought for the fight the "milicias concejiles" (burgers) and also Calatrava, Santiago and Temple orders. This is the best description of the battle I´ve found on the net. You´ll see the figures are the ones I´ve given you. It deserves a reading, but it´s in spanish, I´m very sorry.


http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/1132/p46.htm

What I´m pointing is that this moments were terrific, muslims reunited huge huge armies to reconquer Al-Andalus and I wonder if this so important moments of the Reconquista (sense of a common enemy, huge efforts, internal strifes and disputes forgotten, etc.) can be in some way portraited in the game.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

I can´t say what the real figures at El Salado, for instance, could be, but for sure the Benimerines were not capable of transporting 200.000 troops across the Strait.

Hi again Aryaman.

After consulting some books.

In April 1340 Benimerines´ fleet destroyed the castillian one in the strait. They used afterwards 60 galleys and around 200 other ships to transport the army into Spain. The battle was in October.

The Benimerines and arab contemporary sources give the number of 450.000 for their army, historians now adays agree on around 200.000.

Remember some muslims, even now adays, think Salado battle was the worst muslim defeat ever.

You can count on this: everybody and his dog volunteered for this battles.

BTW it´s being quite interesting this thread.

 

[unmerged(8399)]

Amadís, the difference between the battle of Olmedo and Las Navas de Tolosa is that the first one is well documented while the other is not. That is common to all Europe, for early periods the only sources available are the writings of contemporary historians, more interested in rhetoric than accurate numbers, so we have armies in the hundred of thousands, but the more we advance in time and other sources are available the size of armies decrease very quickly! Alfonso V of Aragon invaded Castile in 1429 with an army (very well documented) of 2000 cav and 1000 infantry.
Las Navas was for sure a critical battle, I don´t dispute that, simply that armies of that size are totally out of the mark, keep in mind that for instance Phillip II of Spain, with many more resources in the XVI century could muster armies not exceeding 80.000.
I remember some years ago I was in a demonstration, I counted all presents, and they numbered 89 (including myself). Next day one local newspaper said there were "hundreds of demonstrators", the other one said "at least 1000"
Thanks for the link, I have no problem reading spanish

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Sure it´s very difficult to have the exact figures. But in every book or source in the net you may find the figures I´ve given (if not higher). And don´t forget about the historians (one must suppose they know about it). They all say the same and give +/- the same numbers.

About army sizes in Felipe II era, putting a soldier in Flandern was very, very expensive. A proffesional one, btw. On the other side, the size of the spanish army in the Granada war in 1489 was 89.000 men. It was a hell of expensive. The 10.000 soldiers sent with Gran Capitán to Italy costed also a lot. Figh¡ting at home is chaeper.

Here are 2 more interesting links in spanish, in case you´re interested

http://www.isocanda.org/adn/0997nar.htm
http://www.arrakis.es/~ammolina/batalla.htm (this one, written by Eslava Galán, a very famous spanish historian, is specially interesting for its references about modern historian estimations).

That said, remembe I´m pointing this 3 battles were true exceptions, when the whole Iberian peninsula in one side and the whole western North of Africa on the other threw out everything.