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BIP - Brazil Improvement Pack

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Hello Gents, i am the man responsable for the historical accuracy and pottencial and possible events and facts in this mod, my work is simplesm not only research, but aply some kind of realism, some kind os things that we would say: "Oh that was a possible thing that could happen in that time. " One thing that we will not see in this mod is a Overpower Brazil, and a Brazil "from dreams", we are very concerned in aplying a good structure and serious work in this project.

Well knowing that, lets see some thing by parts ... (As Jack striper did :) )

1-) Vargas WAS a center right politician, some times going for left, other times a little right, in the end of his life he was naturally closer to the left, but he never moved too away for center. Just a interesting fact : In Brazil EXCEPT by the military, starting with Vargas to our Days NO president was left or right, ALL leaders were center right ou center left, including our actual president, Lula is seen as a center left, and in the past year he was center "center" to say so ... :). But some literacy and studies, about Vargas, sais that he was left wing or Pathernal Autocrat, this is wrong, and the reason for this misunderstood was the wrong impression that some researches and writes had about our complex country, reflecting the begining of cold war thinking. The europeans, like paradox :) , saw him as left wing, the USA and UK side, saw him as Paternal Autocrat, but everyone that really understood the things here, including Vargas himself and his closer politicians, know that he was center right, and sometimes center left.

2) The platinean War: The platinean war WASNT a total war for Brazil ... The countrie itself never had the mobilization in that time to make a full scale war, but this is not relevant, what is relevant in that this war happened in 1826, and the region, culture and politics changed a lot, so much, that the "claim" in the Uruguai is totally unreal. Uruguai doesnt have the same culture, and the brazilians as the politicians of both countries never had a feeeling of "claiming" that region.

3) Coup d'états: as Cadmiel said: "I've included an event representing the 1938 integralist try to a coup d'état, after, if you choose to declare the "Estado Novo", to put AIB (integralist party) in illegality, though there aren't any especific events for an 'Integralist Brazil' after that. I still have to work on it." This was the only attempt to coup Brazil, and it was weak, not suported and a suicidal move by the extreme right (facist) faction. There was absolutly no force that could coup the governament that time. To understand how the things worked and works here, there are just 3 classes that had the power to coup, and at least 2 forces must had unite themselves in to a single force : the land owners, the large companies owners and the military, If these classes are respected and suported by central governament, or the governament itself is shared among them, the coup possibility is zero, at that time, the mass mobilization called by extreme left and right factions was really weak, dificult and easy to dismantle. So Coup possibilities only the Integralist movement and after JFK governament.

4) Grand Battle Plan Doctrine: Well this is simple, the army had the doctrine of the french, that was considered the best by the brazilian military. Superior Firepower, was implemented AFTER the WWII, but still the grand Battle Plan was the doctrine, AND it continued after several decades.

5) Brazil Civil war: it is just simple as it is : The brazilians didnt had any kind of desire, pushing force, movement anything, that could lead to a civil war. Assume that a civil war was possible in Brazil in that time is the same thing of assuming a civil war in the USA in the same period. Impossible.

6) Resources, IC, tech teams and Blueprints, will not spawn fron nothing, will not just blimp in the game, and if it does, (after a briefing, reason, events AND sacrifice) and come in a realistic way, not overpowered and in in very small numbers.

Our idead is to present our countrie as it really was, and not make it a super power house, but show everyone a part of our history, as it really was. I hope everyone enjoy this mod and we welcome any help.

PS: there are some nive events, around 30, already done, about FAB and FEB, that was expedictionary brazilian forces in WWII, with true info, pictures of the time and possible outcomes in the period.

PS 2: the same thing will happen in the economy, because in the WW years Brazil had 2 historical choices, central planing or free market, AND we developed a lot our IC eficiency.

PS 3: here is a link, of our fórum, about these events abou FAB and FEB, only events that i posted will enter the mod, and all events are on english so some of you guys can see some of our work.

http://bfcentral.oi.com.br/forum/showthread.php?t=20559&page=9

(events present in all pages)
 
Thank you for your points.
Re: Vargas Left vs right--Left vs right is one of the most difficult issues, because in practice "rightists" and "moderate leftists" often end up doing the exact same things. But in HOI2 mechanics the deciding issue in these cases is "who would he ally the country with"? And reviewing Vargas' career, I'd say his chances of agreeing to an alliance with the Soviet Union (7% chance in HOI2 with him being left-wing radical and 200 relations) are about 0%. and that the chances of him casting his lot with the axis were also close to zero but certainly greater than the chance of him joining the Comintern. So I'd say "right" fits him better than "left" during the pre-WW2 and WW2 era. We are all in agreement that Vargas was "RIGHT" and moved "LEFT" and the only area of question is HOW FAR did he move? Paradox takes the OPPOSITE position that he was LEFT and moved RIGHT. By the way, one idea to consider is to set Brazil's 1936 starting settings to:
democratic = 3
political_left = 5
That way you start as paternal autocrat but in one click you can change to either left-wing radical or social conservative--and in two clicks you are fascist. It may not be 100% accurate but it would make for good gameplay.
He was technically an autocrat, though that does not necessarily mean oppressive or extremist. And I think that is exactly what is meant by "paternal autocrat"--you're a dictator because there are no elections (or rigged elections) but you don't try to rule with a heavy hand or overturn the social structure. Representation in HOI2 is another issue, governed by considerations such as these--who would be installed in a social democratic government if the only two choices were a PA minister and a Stalinist? The answer is that the game engine considers the Stalinist to be the better match. But it would also prefer a social conservative over the Stalinist in the same situation. So sometimes ministers are best set one or two positions away from their "true" ideology just so things "work" right. So I would not have a problem representing him as SC as long as his government under Estado Novo is PA.
My own personal view of Vargas is that he was an opportunist, Brazilian nationalist, and practicioner of Realpolitik.

Re: Platinean War--I consider this (in the 20th century) to be entirely an alternate history fantasy that someone asked about--as if he wanted to make a Harry Turtledove type novel. Maybe in an alternate history where Hitler won the war, people all over the world would begin to revive old land claims, though.

Re: Grand Battle Plan--your arguments seem sound, but it means you'll have to ultimately have to do an inc file for Brazil in all the scenarios. It would in my opinion lead to a more logical post war path. How would you characterize their doctrine after WW2? Would you say they followed American doctrine (marines, special forces, etc) or perhaps favored a more regular-infantry defensive oriented approach? BTW the American path leads to MUCH better unit statistics at the end. (Though in my mod you can convert to American doctrine equivalence after WW2) Should I convert them to American doctrine after WW2?

Anyway good luck with your mod and I appreciate any constructive comments you have on my own modding efforts, and in particular my conclusions about Brazil in my own events series. Lastly you're welcome to use any of my material with credit given.
 
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Nice and sound arguments nomonhan, indeed i really agree with you. First, it is a joy to speak with someone that really understand the history, and do not have a "domestic american view of world". ;) .

Well, Vargas would be more right than left indeed, and the chances of an alliance with URSS was 0, with axis powers, wasnt 0, IF there were peace in Europe, in fact, before the war brazil was closing its ties with Germany, and an alliance at that time would be sound. BUT Vargas would never mantain, or enter an alliance with the AXIS after any DOW over allies. IF the axis powers DOW upon URSS, the Brazil would continue its ties with Germany, but no matter what, if allies vs axis was a reality, Brazil and Vargas himself werent mad, to continue a friendship with Hitler.

The point in the alliance matter, is that Vargas was, as we say here, and "old monkey" politician, that means he was very experienced and had a great view about international affairs, and how to profit with that. SO, Brazil remained neutral, purposely, just to force the allies to give us advantages for an alliance, what really hapenned. Vargas was personaly wrinting messages both for Hitler and Rosevelt themselves, and seending diplomats for both countries, and he was doing that not to close his ties with axis, but to give the impression, to USA isolacionists that he could, just to ask americans for more advantages, in a case of an alliance. But Vargas made clear tha Roosevelt should know that Brazil would never join axis, but could remain neutral.
Doing that and seending a diplomat to the White House, Vargas gave Roosevelt a good and solid argument, in the american parlament, to help Brazil, without any domestic political problem with the republican party in the States, what is incredible was that both man knew that, and was laughting about that when they meet each other here, because Vargas sent a Hitler's letter, after a decoy birthday letter, to White House, just to give Roosevelt some kind of "political proof" of a possible axis menace in South America, what was an impossible thing.

What is interisting, is that Brazil joined allies, received a lot of money, suplies and structure on north east, because of its strategic place in the Atlantic, but never DOW on Japan, and never joined allies in the pacific, because Brazil had and has the biggest japanese imigrants colony. Just another thing about Vargas' view of world.

I was discussing with Cadmiel, and we both agreed that sometimes we need to put something diferent, just to make the things in the game work... as you said nomonhan. But Vargas closed to left later because of some domestic politics that he did. De gave a lot of rights to the workers, establish the first code of law, about employes, and sindicate + company relations, much closer to the left ideas. Some left parties even borned in this period, that is why he moved to left. Another thing to consider was that Vargas was NOT a leader with supreme powers, like Hitler, or Stalin, he was some kind of "elected" dictator. A small group of military and businessmen was suporting the best man for the chair, that was Vargas, in fact Vargas was powerfull, but just a little more than a democratic elected president. Later Vargas gave up the chair, and that was a sign of pressure on him, and a sign that he wasnt that powerfull man, in fact a lot of his power came by 2 things, first he was the right man in the right time, later he become the man of people.

In his assassination, he didnt comited suicide, he was isolated totally.

Another point is that Brazil wasnt a PA, because there was a good pressure even among the military, and Vargas suporters, for elections. The feeling was that Vargas was the man to give order to the country, and power to intitutions, for a period, just that. After, he would "deliver" a "democratic and stable Brazil" , that was the feeling, just because everyone didnt want to enter a froze dictatorial governament, but didnt want a democratic and unstable country either, and Vargas didnt had power enough to maintain his status for a long period. "If you want to rule here you need to share power, and sharing power you will be rulled, to rule". So Brazil should stay, in the center as a SC.

The Doctrine issue, is a much simpler matter. The army, had the GBP, the lessons of war proved that the firepower doctrine was a better choice, BUT, only in an ofensive war, not in a defensive war. And the army, here, always prepared themselves for an defensive stance, and for a lot of reasons from money to equip to oficials resitence, the army continued the GBP doctrine, but changed their view. The change was that a open fight should be avoided, and the atrition, guerrilha and trench warfare should be focused. The special forces, marines, etc never had NOT any priority here, but the infantry, special infantry for jungle, and anti-armor infantry allways had and still has, the armor is set for a suporter, and not a front breaker, like a spearhead, and that is because the defensive stance, and aprouch here. The size of our country contributes too. So GBP, continued for decades after the war. In seas and air the doctrines allways was the american doctrines.

The Platinean War case, if an entirely alternate history fantasy is the goal, well in that case, yes Brazil should have claim over Uruguay, and Half of Paraguai, and bad relations with Argentina. In fact Argentina vs Brazil, would be a possible war, but only in fantasy, in fact Brazil allwasy had closer relations with England, since Napoleon era, than any other country here ... ;) .
 
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Thank you for your reply.
It appears as though the French doctrine is the best choice for Brazil, and in my cold war mod that can go either to US equivalence (choice of France itself) or basically Advanced Grand Battle Plan, with primarily infantry focus, but options to develop the special forces later. Your argument favors the latter.

Check and see what you think about other countries. I don't think most of them had any desire for offensive war, but want to know if there were any exceptions (maybe Peru and Argentina should be on the US tree?)
 
Yeah but the general feeling of the ruling classes didn't change the composition of his government until he left power so SC doesn't fits Vargas government
Weak PA I would say that becomes fascist with "Estado Novo" and then reverts to SC after it ends, maybe SC in the beggining but then only before "Estado Novo"
As for Getulio's own ideology I would give him both PA and SD, after all he changed his ideas according to the world's situation
 
Sorry Conqueror but you are equivocat, the rulling classes didnt change the composition of Vargas governament, because they WERE the governament, Vargas shared the state among the rulling classes. It was the rulling classes that put Vargas on power and killed him. As i said Vargas wasnt a full power dictator, but an "elected" dictator, and he didnt left the power , he was forced to "retire" ;) TWICE.

Anyway SC, is the real point, just because how teh society really worked at that time.

As for Getulio's own ideology, according with his memos, close relatives and close politicians and friends que was, an oportunist , old monkey SC, not to say center - center.
 
Nomonhan, no other latin country, had an ofensive stance, just because they didnt had any kind of logistics and structure to do an ofensive move without domestic problems or/and secure the front positions. In time, it become a tradition to have only a defensive army ...

Another point, is that after the Paraguay attempt to conquer Brazil's territory and gain a exit to the seas, Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguai united themselves under England backuo and litteraly massacred Paraguai, after that it become clear that a beligerent state that would be the agressor could unite other countries against him.

Brazil allways was the leading power at the south america, but you need to remember that all its borders except with Paraguai and Uruguai, was made peacefully, diplomatic ways. So there is no tradition, cpacity, domestic suport and logistical power to create and suport an Ofensive Peru, maybe an Argentina against Brazil and/or Chile , and a Brazil vs Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay, but we are going to much to the fantasy ground.
 
Thanks for your input on military doctrine. There's a good case for making all Latin American countries French doctrine but that means modding 120+ files--something I'm not looking forward to at all. I may instead, since I'm doing a tech tree project, simply provide them an "escape" leading to a modern tree that emphasizes defensive infantry warfare, and later allowing evolution of improved specialized units.
What is your opinion on the Latin American military leaders' familiarity with techniques of naval and air support?
 
hansnery said:
We should have an portuguese sub-forum!
Deveríamos ter um sub-fórum em português!
:D
Click to expand...

Yeah,:D but we can't talk portuguese here execept sometimes (with translations) here and in private mensages.:(
 
Sr. Bison said:
Sorry Conqueror but you are equivocat, the rulling classes didnt change the composition of Vargas governament, because they WERE the governament, Vargas shared the state among the rulling classes. It was the rulling classes that put Vargas on power and killed him. As i said Vargas wasnt a full power dictator, but an "elected" dictator, and he didnt left the power , he was forced to "retire" ;) TWICE.

Anyway SC, is the real point, just because how teh society really worked at that time.

As for Getulio's own ideology, according with his memos, close relatives and close politicians and friends que was, an oportunist , old monkey SC, not to say center - center.
Click to expand...

You're forgetting all the history that happens between his resigantions my friend so now you got all wrong not me
In fact he want even elected he couped the nation and centralized all power in his hands, but then after the end of WWII pression for him to resign and elite power began to rose so he decided to do that, not because he wanted but because he was "forced" to
The elite classes were by no mean the government and in fact they opposed him fervently many times, no better show of that than the Constitutionalist Revolution my friend
You can them argue a part of them put him into power, and I would say yes, but then again they turned on him when they had the chance because he forgot about them and promoted himself
So I am not speaking about the beggining or the end that were events created by the elites, but I am speaking about the middle I speak of "Estado Novo" where he alone exclusively dominated all politics, to the point of banning all political parties
As for ideology, well its rather difficult to judge since he played sides, I would say give him two minister files one for PA other for SD or SL
 
Sorry Conqueror but we do not agree, as the brazilians historicians here, you seems to know our history well, but lacks some true perception of what truly happened here, the things on back stage, a perception that only studing the memos of Vargas, and a deep study of brazilian domestic history, principaly in USP, Universidade de São Paulo, could bring, but no worry our mod will :cool:
 
Sr. Bison said:
Sorry Conqueror but we do not agree, as the brazilians historicians here, you seems to know our history well, but lacks some true perception of what truly happened here, the things on back stage, a perception that only studing the memos of Vargas, and a deep study of brazilian domestic history, principaly in USP, Universidade de São Paulo, could bring, but no worry our mod will :cool:
Click to expand...

Wait a minute... I was thinking that all this mod helpers were brazilians... Am I wrong? Bison dude, are you a history teacher or what?
 
How's progress on the new version going?
 
The team is coming back from vacation time.

We really appreciate and encourage the community collaboration, either by downloading, reporting, opining and/or argumenting. Very thank you.

The next version, with many corrections to the first, and some new additions, is coming probably the following week.
 
Any progress? :p

I noticed Jânio Quadros in minister files is listed as a Market Liberal. That... isn't how I'd classify his leadership. Wouldn't Social Democrat be more accurate? Perhaps even Left-Wing Radical.
 
I have had some inconveniences, so the release has been delayed for one more week.

As a compensation for the delay, I will post a few pics of brazilian models I'm preparing for the new version.

All the images are from real brazilian military.

basic artillery
illbribra14bm1.png

infantry 36
illdivbra01ii4.png

motorized 51
illdivbra24qg0.png

early armored
illdivbra51zq8.png

hq 36
illdivbra100hf6.png

fighter
illdivbra120af9.png
 
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