I think that was an excellent way to write in the occurrence. One does feel for the King (and the author)
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it all seems fine at this point in time...
still going strong...
everything is going great, and those pesky suomensky joining the alliance mean nothing
not very good news indeed, but no big deal in the greater scheme of things.
may he feast in the halls of Odin
now i am relieved, i was expecting a huge tragedy, this is the loss of some hard won prestige points but not exactly game breaking, and you wrote it well
wise words from a wise king
I think the most prudent thing to do is to grant the county to Helgi. Since this is not a duchy level title but a loose county, it is supposed to go to him anyway regarding there are at least 1 duchy level titles for each child.
my men never liked any kind of water their horses couldn't drink, so no experience about this
I really was still expecting yet another disaster, if this is the case then it's just a missed opportunity and wasted prestige, which is not nothing, but could've been much worse so i'm happy now
Ohhhh noooo. I have done that as well! It's all part of the learning curve, my friend. Look at it this way; it's the hand of fate pushing your attention inwards for a time. The prestige was a sunk cost that was gone no matter what; the wars will begin again later. It's only a couple years of "optimal" play lost.
Either way - you're doing well so far. Just gotta grit your teeth and carry on.
Either way - you're doing well so far. Just gotta grit your teeth and carry on.
most of the remaining neighbors were suomenski (thus would've triggered a badboy war) anyway, the big one on the south is too big and a good friend, and the one on the east might have a cavalry heavy dangerous army so there doesn't seem to have been a lot of candidates for a war anyway.
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As others have said: An embarrassing mistake to be sure, but certainly not a tragedy, all things considered -- and indeed, I have done much the same myself, and worse. Mistakes happen, but Rurik (and his author) have landed on their feet, which is the important thing
Taking a look at the map: I see a telltale glimpse of orange to the north; have the Danes been busy in your neck of the woods lately, I wonder?
Taking a look at the map: I see a telltale glimpse of orange to the north; have the Danes been busy in your neck of the woods lately, I wonder?
Its always a bother with these hordes/tribals/fanatics etc. coming an going as they want.
I never liked the comic book Loki. Darn it - Loki is a redhead and the God OF FIRE! Oh, and sorry to hear about the soldiers getting bored and wandering off. That's Pagan warriors for you.
Yes - try as I might, I couldn’t find an old or illustrated version of Loki laughing nastily, so went with the next best I could find!
Yes, touchy fellows. Less that a fortnight without action, or the promise of it, and they down tools and walk off the job.
Progress has been made though. A pagan army going walkabout is far from the worst thing that could happen. I was thinking more along the line of crusades or something. If Hungary gets that into their heads...
Well, blowing 7,000+ troops/1,500 prestige worth (when one needs it for building as well) was a big hit for a silly keyboard error - and I had to make it dramatic.
But yes, all quite survivable, no doubt.
So, some feedback responses before I launch into the "whither next?" chapter:
But he dusts himself off and gets back up. And expects nothing less of his successors!
All: Thank you so much for you comments and support, including in giving this humble AAR another 'podium finish' in the 2018 Q1 ACAs. All support, from reading, through to commenting and voting is always very much appreciated. Next update should be up in a few hours.
My thanks. I thought I had to embrace in both in the game and narrative.
Thanks. May as well make some narrative mileage out of one of those silly mistakes (it was a perfect storm of double-clicking the tribal army earlier, accidentally unpausing plus having it set to Ironman). But yes, coulda been worse!it all seems fine at this point in time...
still going strong...
everything is going great, and those pesky suomensky joining the alliance mean nothing
not very good news indeed, but no big deal in the greater scheme of things.
may he feast in the halls of Odin
now i am relieved, i was expecting a huge tragedy, this is the loss of some hard won prestige points but not exactly game breaking, and you wrote it well
I'll have a think about granting the county to Helgi. Rurik doesn't much need the ships beforehand (unless he wants two raiding fleets at once): the shipyards are all for his successors.
I can't claim learner's privilege for this one: while new to CK2, I'm more of a veteran of Paradox and other games where this is an issue. Just one of those things that happens - and at the worst time. I felt pretty silly.
Ah, Rurik can always find candidates to conquer - so many different options, some of them have to be viable! More to be put before the Thing soon.
Yes, it's not the first, or even second self-inflicted wound Rurik has had to recover from.As others have said: An embarrassing mistake to be sure, but certainly not a tragedy, all things considered -- and indeed, I have done much the same myself, and worse. Mistakes happen, but Rurik (and his author) have landed on their feet, which is the important thing
But he dusts himself off and gets back up. And expects nothing less of his successors!Fortunately not - it's a slightly different shade of orange that belongs to the minor Finnish realm of Kola: a map follows in the next update.
Yes - who ever told them it was some kind of tribal democracy!!
All: Thank you so much for you comments and support, including in giving this humble AAR another 'podium finish' in the 2018 Q1 ACAs. All support, from reading, through to commenting and voting is always very much appreciated.
Next update should be up in a few hours.
Chapter 39: Necessity is the Mother of Invention (9 November 880)
Chapter 39: Necessity is the Mother of Invention (9 November 880)
Previously, on Blut und Schlacht … Rurik’s Great Tribal Host had melted away like the snows in the spring thaw while he "communed with the Gods”; with his levies dismissed, the chastened King of Garðaríki began to head back to his capital of Nygarðr in Holmgarđr county from the recently conquered Kexholm, wondering what he would do next and where he would do it; ever active and impatient for blood and battle, he did not take rest easily: he would do what he could with what he had.
Rurik gathered Gumarich and his key remaining officers that evening for a council of war. First, they looked at potential conquest targets. In Finland and the North, these were outside the de jure realm of Garðaríki, so the only casus belli available for each being seriously considered (in Finland) was to conquer one bordering or coastal county: fine where it was a one-county Chiefdom but requiring a choice of target where there were two or more.
Finland and the North
Ussimaa. Pros: not much coin or piety, small levy (even with the temple vassal), two shipyards. Cons: member of the anti-Rurik pact, would therefore drag in Veps and Ugra, meaning two different and distant fronts.
Savo and Häme. Considered together, as they are similar, but two different propositions. Pros: single chiefdoms, small levies, not in the pact. Cons: neither have shipyards or access to the sea for building them later; Chief Mielus of Savo has enough piety to summon a religious horde.
Satakunta. Pros: both counties have shipyards; small levies; not in the pact. Cons: High Chief Ihala has enough piety for two religious hordes; no land border with Garðariki, though could be invaded and conquered by sea.
Pohjanmaa. Pros: both its counties have shipyards; not in anti-Rurik pact; small levies (vassal not shown here); opposed to Björn Ironside – Rurik’s father-in-law and buddy; closer to the Holy Sites. Cons: a little isolated, though a land border is shared.
The Finnish coastal town of Pohjanmaa. It could be a useful springboard to the rest of Scandinavia in years to come.
Karelia. Pros: small-medium sized levy; not in pact; Ääninen tribe has a shipyard. Cons: High Chief Tuure has the piety for a religious horde; the shipyard could be on its northern (Arctic) coast.
Estonia has been examined previously. The same analysis as before applies, as they have since withdrawn from the pact. They can still raise a religious horde.
Finnish Duchies. Another consideration for the Finnish options is the de jure duchies there and the fact that conquering enough counties there would eventually allow them to be established. There are two in southern Finland: Karelia (of which Kexholm is already one of the four counties which constitute it); and Satakunta (made up of six counties). Of these, Karelia is closer and more contiguous with Garðaríki and one of the counties is already held. But of the remaining three provinces, only Ääninen has a shipyard or capacity to build one.
Available Forces. Rurik now has just over 500 prestige after the conquest of Kexholm. Just enough for yet another tribal army, though that would mean no new construction of training grounds or another shipyard for some time. It might be considered if necessary if a prolonged series of conquest wars are contemplated [Until dangerous Badboy or pacts stop it. And being very careful not to blow it again between wars!!]. Otherwise, current demesne levy strength plus Rurik’s personal troops mean around 2,000 men are immediately available (and noting the new Godi of Tikhvin now only provides around 25 troops [due to not having old Þorolfr’s 100% loyalty]. If prepared to wait, this would increase considerably and dwarf all neighbours (though not all of them together). Of the vassals, Ingria, the trusty Smaleskja and the recently more amenable Belo Ozero could again provide up to another 1,000 allied troops, though that is not certain. Nuyanza of Ingria currently has no troops to his name, presumably because of the recent sacking of the county by Chief Ahma. Realm funds are not high, so mercenary hire is not really an option for the foreseeable future, without another major raid.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Sverker and Hrolfr were the only two commanders left in Kexholm, still with Rurik and his small personal company after the loss of the Great Tribal Host and the dismissal of the royal demesne levies. Along with Gumarich, they had gathered to look at next steps, prior to submitting questions to the Þing.
De Jure Garðaríki
Another map showed the two realms being discussed, which stretched well to the east. Mordva was very large.
The Mordvin army is beset on many fronts at present and are ‘Ill-Ruled”. A good target for expansion, while the circumstances are right?
Ambitions
Rurik would prefer not to have this happen while off conquering or raiding!
News of the World
King Rurik was also interested in where the expanded realm of Garðariki now stood in comparison to others in the known world. Scribes had been commissioned to come up with the best knowledge available to them to come up with an honest listing or relative strengths. One was army size [in this case the notional maximum levy strength of the ruler’s personal demesne seemed to be the most prevalent measure to hand - I assume that's what it is, anyway]. The other related to the estimated number of holdings within each realm [presumably these could be multiple holdings per country in rich and well-developed realms].
In potential military strength, Garðariki now came in at 16th. Though at present, Rurik could muster fewer than 1,900 of the full notional levy strength of 5,258. The mighty Byzantine Empire, with over 21,000, had almost twice as many to notionally draw upon than those in second place – Syria, closely followed by Andalusia and Hungary (all those three with over 10,000), then West Francia and Egypt (with more than 9,000 each). Denmark, the Arabian Empire, Kosala and Sviþjod rounded out those with the ten largest potential militaries.
A 13th century illustration of the Battle of Lalakaon, between the Byzantines and Arabs, in 863 CE.
In terms of realm size, Kosala was the largest with 247 holdings [?], followed closely by the Byzantines with 236. About 60 further back came Hungary and the Arabians, then Andalusia, Italy, Karnata and West Francia a further 40 or more behind them. Kamarupa and Sviþjod rounded out the ‘top ten’, both with fewer than a hundred holdings. Here, Garðaríki was way down the list, ranked 36th with only 24 holdings.
The world as known to King Rurik in 880 CE. An indication has been made where the realm names in the lists above differ from those illustrated on the map.
All this made for interesting reading for Rurik, who wished for his realm to climb to eventually climb to the top of both these measures, no matter how long and how many successors it may take. That definitely would not be an easy task. But then, waking dreams are the stuff of legends – and the makings of great dynasties.
Questions
While advice of all types is always welcomed by the open-minded Rurik, this next Þing is principally focused on the issue of future directions. To conquer, or to raid and build? If conquest, where?
Ch39 Q1. Shipyard Capacity. Mainly an observation, but also double-checking something: it seems some counties, even though they are coastal (such as Karjala) don’t even have the option of building a shipyard. I wonder what the basis for determining that is. The other is in Ääninen, where would the built ships appear? Only on the north (White Sea) coast, therefore having to make it the long way around Scandinavia and then the Baltic to get to Garðaríki proper? Or (I’m assuming not, because there is no channel from the north to the lakes) could they appear in one of the lakes (Ladoga or Onega)? I’m assuming not, because Ladoga county (mine) has access to the lake and thence the sea via the channel past Ingria, but has no capacity to build a shipyard, thus my assumption they can only be built on sea coasts, and that is thus where the ships would appear. If so, this makes Ääninen less attractive as a shipyard acquisition.
Chap39 Q2: Conquer or Raid? This is a question of views on what might be done next. First, I’d be interested in thoughts on the options, within what was considered, but also whether you think I should not have discounted something else. But mainly, whether it should be one more conquest at least for now or change direction for a while and raid again (always a good Viking option too). And if conquest, which might we target.
Chap39 Q3: Revolt Risk. I haven’t focused on this before. Perhaps I should have. The mention of revolt risk reduction in the ‘Realm Prosper’ ambition prompted me to look at it. I’ve been lucky and have had no peasant revolts as yet. How do the figures on the map look? Is that -1 reduction perhaps worth considering? Or don’t these numbers cause you much worry. Of course, the more counties under rule, the more chance one of these might trigger and that could be quite pesky, I imagine. Welcome any general views and comments.
Chap39 Q4: Ledger Stats. Have I got that right for those two items under the ledger? It certainly looks that way for the army comparison, anyway.
There is much thinking to be done by the learned of the realm and some important decisions for King Rurik to make as he seeks to recover from his disastrous seclusion of the month before.
Previously, on Blut und Schlacht … Rurik’s Great Tribal Host had melted away like the snows in the spring thaw while he "communed with the Gods”; with his levies dismissed, the chastened King of Garðaríki began to head back to his capital of Nygarðr in Holmgarđr county from the recently conquered Kexholm, wondering what he would do next and where he would do it; ever active and impatient for blood and battle, he did not take rest easily: he would do what he could with what he had.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Rurik gathered Gumarich and his key remaining officers that evening for a council of war. First, they looked at potential conquest targets. In Finland and the North, these were outside the de jure realm of Garðaríki, so the only casus belli available for each being seriously considered (in Finland) was to conquer one bordering or coastal county: fine where it was a one-county Chiefdom but requiring a choice of target where there were two or more.
Finland and the North
Ussimaa. Pros: not much coin or piety, small levy (even with the temple vassal), two shipyards. Cons: member of the anti-Rurik pact, would therefore drag in Veps and Ugra, meaning two different and distant fronts.
The Finnish coastal town of Pohjanmaa. It could be a useful springboard to the rest of Scandinavia in years to come.
Finnish Duchies. Another consideration for the Finnish options is the de jure duchies there and the fact that conquering enough counties there would eventually allow them to be established. There are two in southern Finland: Karelia (of which Kexholm is already one of the four counties which constitute it); and Satakunta (made up of six counties). Of these, Karelia is closer and more contiguous with Garðaríki and one of the counties is already held. But of the remaining three provinces, only Ääninen has a shipyard or capacity to build one.
Ch39 Q1. Shipyard Capacity. Mainly an observation, but also double-checking something: it seems some counties, even though they are coastal (such as Karjala) don’t even have the option of building a shipyard. I wonder what the basis for determining that is. The other is in Ääninen, where would the built ships appear? Only on the north (White Sea) coast, therefore having to make it the long way around Scandinavia and then the Baltic to get to Garðaríki proper? Or (I’m assuming not, because there is no channel from the north to the lakes) could they appear in one of the lakes (Ladoga or Onega)? I’m assuming not, because Ladoga county (mine) has access to the lake and thence the sea via the channel past Ingria, but has no capacity to build a shipyard, thus my assumption they can only be built on sea coasts, and that is thus where the ships would appear. If so, this makes Ääninen less attractive as a shipyard acquisition.
Available Forces. Rurik now has just over 500 prestige after the conquest of Kexholm. Just enough for yet another tribal army, though that would mean no new construction of training grounds or another shipyard for some time. It might be considered if necessary if a prolonged series of conquest wars are contemplated [Until dangerous Badboy or pacts stop it. And being very careful not to blow it again between wars!!]. Otherwise, current demesne levy strength plus Rurik’s personal troops mean around 2,000 men are immediately available (and noting the new Godi of Tikhvin now only provides around 25 troops [due to not having old Þorolfr’s 100% loyalty]. If prepared to wait, this would increase considerably and dwarf all neighbours (though not all of them together). Of the vassals, Ingria, the trusty Smaleskja and the recently more amenable Belo Ozero could again provide up to another 1,000 allied troops, though that is not certain. Nuyanza of Ingria currently has no troops to his name, presumably because of the recent sacking of the county by Chief Ahma. Realm funds are not high, so mercenary hire is not really an option for the foreseeable future, without another major raid.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Sverker and Hrolfr were the only two commanders left in Kexholm, still with Rurik and his small personal company after the loss of the Great Tribal Host and the dismissal of the royal demesne levies. Along with Gumarich, they had gathered to look at next steps, prior to submitting questions to the Þing.
“I seek your views on the best next steps. I will hear yours first. We must make the best of the circumstances my – ah, regrettable – absence in late October has brought about. In the broad, if we keep going in Finland we must look at war and continued conquest, a county at a time. We will look at inland options, to seize remaining de jure counties of Garðaríki, separately.”
“Very well, My King,” began Sverker, who had campaigned for many years as his liege’s trusted military right hand. “Let us first discount those targets that are not ripe for the picking. I think we must include Uusimaa among them. They would be a prime target if not for their membership of that pact against us. We cannot afford such a war right now. I say leave them for another day – perhaps if they leave that pact, or in the future when we have more forces available for a larger war in many places.” All around the table nodded their agreement.
“I think Savo can be eliminated due to the likelihood of another religious horde appearing should we attack them," states Hrolfr confidently. "And it’s just not worth the trouble: no shipyard, not much else going for it. They could be taken some time in the future if we seek to unite the counties to form a new Jarldom. Häme would be easier, but again not of much use. I say leave them both.” The skilled and experienced Hrolfr speaks with a good deal of authority. His words also meet with general agreement.
“My Liege,” ventures Gumarich. “I would also suggest the High Chiefdom of Satakunta is not yet ripe for conquest. We could take either county by sea, but the concern is High Chief Ihala’s piety: as we saw with Ahma just recently, two religious hordes would be tough to defeat and our ability to summon more Tribal Armies is more limited than before. We could raise one, but it would cost most of your remaining prestige. And still may not be quite enough in any case. Even a victory could be bloody and a conquest would be isolated until we could link it up through other land conquests.”
“I think you have the right of it, Gumarich,” answered Rurik. “Let us now see if there are any worthwhile conquest options left in Finland. Sverker, what think you of Pohjanmaa?”
“A little isolated perhaps, but that could be rectified by more conquests later. I think it has much to recommend it. The southern county – Kaleva’s seat of Pohjanmaa itself - has shipyards on the Gulf of Bothnia. It projects our power well westwards. And your father-in-law, King Björn ‘Ironside’ Ragnarrson of Sviþjod, may be pleased at our taking down an opponent of his. Kaleva’s levy is small and he has not the gold or piety to summon more troops. I think it could be a fine choice.”
“I do not disagree, but Karelia could be another viable approach,” suggests Hrolfr. “The county of Ääninen could be a useful acquisition. It has a shipyard, though that may be made less attractive if it is on the northern coast: we should investigate that. But it is another county of the de jure Jarldom of Karelia. The concern though is High Chief Tuure’s ability to raise a religious horde. Even with Vsemil and Grimr’s men answering the call, it could be hard going without our own tribal army: added to his own levy, those religious warriors field a high proportion of heavy infantry. Our more lightly armed levies could find it difficult, even if we can muster larger numbers (not guaranteed) and better leadership. As an option, I think it possible, but am left a bit uneasy by my own suggestion.”
The King summarised the discussion on Finland. “I think it is agreed then: the main option for another conquest in Finland soon is Pohjanmaa. The alternative is to wait for more forces to be recruited before taking on one of the other targets later or summon another tribal army. And if we are to wait, perhaps it should be for a longer period of careful raiding and peace, allowing our threat to subside, levies to build, gold to flow in and prestige grow. And to make use of my ships while I still command them.”
“Very well, My King,” began Sverker, who had campaigned for many years as his liege’s trusted military right hand. “Let us first discount those targets that are not ripe for the picking. I think we must include Uusimaa among them. They would be a prime target if not for their membership of that pact against us. We cannot afford such a war right now. I say leave them for another day – perhaps if they leave that pact, or in the future when we have more forces available for a larger war in many places.” All around the table nodded their agreement.
“I think Savo can be eliminated due to the likelihood of another religious horde appearing should we attack them," states Hrolfr confidently. "And it’s just not worth the trouble: no shipyard, not much else going for it. They could be taken some time in the future if we seek to unite the counties to form a new Jarldom. Häme would be easier, but again not of much use. I say leave them both.” The skilled and experienced Hrolfr speaks with a good deal of authority. His words also meet with general agreement.
“My Liege,” ventures Gumarich. “I would also suggest the High Chiefdom of Satakunta is not yet ripe for conquest. We could take either county by sea, but the concern is High Chief Ihala’s piety: as we saw with Ahma just recently, two religious hordes would be tough to defeat and our ability to summon more Tribal Armies is more limited than before. We could raise one, but it would cost most of your remaining prestige. And still may not be quite enough in any case. Even a victory could be bloody and a conquest would be isolated until we could link it up through other land conquests.”
“I think you have the right of it, Gumarich,” answered Rurik. “Let us now see if there are any worthwhile conquest options left in Finland. Sverker, what think you of Pohjanmaa?”
“A little isolated perhaps, but that could be rectified by more conquests later. I think it has much to recommend it. The southern county – Kaleva’s seat of Pohjanmaa itself - has shipyards on the Gulf of Bothnia. It projects our power well westwards. And your father-in-law, King Björn ‘Ironside’ Ragnarrson of Sviþjod, may be pleased at our taking down an opponent of his. Kaleva’s levy is small and he has not the gold or piety to summon more troops. I think it could be a fine choice.”
“I do not disagree, but Karelia could be another viable approach,” suggests Hrolfr. “The county of Ääninen could be a useful acquisition. It has a shipyard, though that may be made less attractive if it is on the northern coast: we should investigate that. But it is another county of the de jure Jarldom of Karelia. The concern though is High Chief Tuure’s ability to raise a religious horde. Even with Vsemil and Grimr’s men answering the call, it could be hard going without our own tribal army: added to his own levy, those religious warriors field a high proportion of heavy infantry. Our more lightly armed levies could find it difficult, even if we can muster larger numbers (not guaranteed) and better leadership. As an option, I think it possible, but am left a bit uneasy by my own suggestion.”
The King summarised the discussion on Finland. “I think it is agreed then: the main option for another conquest in Finland soon is Pohjanmaa. The alternative is to wait for more forces to be recruited before taking on one of the other targets later or summon another tribal army. And if we are to wait, perhaps it should be for a longer period of careful raiding and peace, allowing our threat to subside, levies to build, gold to flow in and prestige grow. And to make use of my ships while I still command them.”
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
De Jure Garðaríki
“An alternative is to look for some easy pickings to expand de jure Garðaríki,” continued Rurik, after draining another horn. All that discussion was thirsty work. “There are five counties sitting just outside our borders that are rightfully ours. One is owned by Mari, three by Mordva and one more by our brethren in Konugarðr. This map sets them out.”
Another map showed the two realms being discussed, which stretched well to the east. Mordva was very large.
“My King,” began Gumarich. “Here is what we know about the strength of these two realms. High Chief Varaka of Mordva is known as ‘the Ill-Ruler’. He is broke, does not have the piety to summon any holy warriors and only has a small personal levy to call on. He is tied up in three separate wars – one with his neighbour Mari. Of his four vassals, three would almost certainly support him in a call to arms, while the fourth hates him with a passion. We could pick one of the three counties of yours that he currently occupies – though one is already in the hands of High Chief Tutyra of Mari.”
“Very ripe for the picking, I’d say,” says Hrolfr. “We take one of the other two counties, sack as many other holdings as we need to make him cough it up and come back for the others sometime in the future, after any treaty expires. Best to get started on them soon, in that case.”
The Mordvin army is beset on many fronts at present and are ‘Ill-Ruled”. A good target for expansion, while the circumstances are right?
“My Liege,” commented Gumarich. “We have no available direct subjugation claims on any of these counties, though we could press more than one on behalf of some of our newly acquired Chiefs’ claims. But I don’t think we want to be boosting any of them.” This last is met with general agreement.
“And of the two, Tutra is by far the better warrior and he does have the piety to bring holy warriors. As mentioned before, he is at war with Varaka. Though he has imprudently withdrawn from that defensive pact against us that he started, so we could take him on. But the potential holy warriors would be a problem.”
“Very well, of the two, Mordva seems to be the pick,” agreed Rurik. “Now, what of Konugarðr. Is it time to start whittling them back yet? One province at a time? They may be 'friends', but give us nothing and could easily become rivals.”
“King Dyre is a formidable ruler and a true Norseman,” offers Sverker. “As we remember from our trip through his lands on our great raid in the Mediterranean. He has a sizable levy, though smaller than yours, My King. And his lands are strung out in a way that makes them difficult to defend. He does not have the prestige to summon a tribal army - his military strength is in his many vassals. He rules directly over four jarls, five chiefs and two Godis. Even if a few may not answer a call to arms, most probably would. That could prove a problem.”
“And of the two, Tutra is by far the better warrior and he does have the piety to bring holy warriors. As mentioned before, he is at war with Varaka. Though he has imprudently withdrawn from that defensive pact against us that he started, so we could take him on. But the potential holy warriors would be a problem.”
“Very well, of the two, Mordva seems to be the pick,” agreed Rurik. “Now, what of Konugarðr. Is it time to start whittling them back yet? One province at a time? They may be 'friends', but give us nothing and could easily become rivals.”
“King Dyre is a formidable ruler and a true Norseman,” offers Sverker. “As we remember from our trip through his lands on our great raid in the Mediterranean. He has a sizable levy, though smaller than yours, My King. And his lands are strung out in a way that makes them difficult to defend. He does not have the prestige to summon a tribal army - his military strength is in his many vassals. He rules directly over four jarls, five chiefs and two Godis. Even if a few may not answer a call to arms, most probably would. That could prove a problem.”
“But he too is at war – with Turov, which he attacked with the aim of seizing Minsk.” Hrolfr makes this observation with some restrained glee. “And I hear Dyre is in trouble too. High Chief Bogdan of Turov looks to have summoned two hordes of religious zealots, outnumbers Dyre’s current forces heavily, and has actually occupied the county of Turov off Dyre. Though Bogdan is short of funds – in debt actually - and this may cause him problems. Perhaps now is the time to act and bring Mohaysk into the fold – a true part of Garðaríki. We will have a reckoning with Konugarðr one day – perhaps we should take the first bite soon, while they are temporarily vulnerable?”
“Interesting developments. And Estonia could be an option again, now that they have dropped out of the pact against me. Though they would probably summon a religious horde in their defence. In summary, my feeling is Mari should wait, Mordva is a good target, while Konugarðr is a possibility. Pohjanmaa in Finland gives us more ships and moves us closer to the Holy Sites, while Mordva is in trouble, holds three of our rightful counties. Those are my two top conquest options, I think. Konugarðr maybe; the rest I doubt but I will listen to what the Þing says about them.”
“The alternative to more conquest is 'peace with raiding', probably for up to five years, allowing prestige, treasure and levy strengths to rebuild. That broad choice will be put to the Þing as the alternative to immediate conquest. We have narrowed the options and I will seek the wisdom of Odin. One ignores the Gods at ones peril.” All four look rather uncomfortable after this last comment – but it had to be said. It is the closest Rurik would come to admitting error or making an apology before his subordinates. That is something he generally reserved for his son and heir.
When the meeting was done, Gumarich stayed behind so that Rurik could dictate instructions.
“Summarise that and send it all to Hrörekr, to then put before the Þing.”
“Of course, My Liege.”
“The alternative to more conquest is 'peace with raiding', probably for up to five years, allowing prestige, treasure and levy strengths to rebuild. That broad choice will be put to the Þing as the alternative to immediate conquest. We have narrowed the options and I will seek the wisdom of Odin. One ignores the Gods at ones peril.” All four look rather uncomfortable after this last comment – but it had to be said. It is the closest Rurik would come to admitting error or making an apology before his subordinates. That is something he generally reserved for his son and heir.
When the meeting was done, Gumarich stayed behind so that Rurik could dictate instructions.
“Summarise that and send it all to Hrörekr, to then put before the Þing.”
“Of course, My Liege.”
Chap39 Q2: Conquer or Raid? This is a question of views on what might be done next. First, I’d be interested in thoughts on the options, within what was considered, but also whether you think I should not have discounted something else. But mainly, whether it should be one more conquest at least for now or change direction for a while and raid again (always a good Viking option too). And if conquest, which might we target.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ambitions
“I also want Hrörekr to canvass views on what my next ambition for the realm should be. I have two in mind [ie available in the game] and I think either could work, whether we look to war or raid next. I think seeing the realm prosper through five years of peace and raiding has more advantages, but also limits the options for war in the interim, should opportunities present. We could still do so, but it would mean surrendering that ambition. Alternatively, I could seek to build wealth for a war chest. And that would require at least two major, successful raids to achieve. I am however a bit dubious about the worth of the ultimate aim: we may be able to raise a greater rate of taxes, but those are very small for us. I’m not sure it would be worth that much in the long run.”
“And, My King, one immediate benefit of pursuing a period of peace would be to reduce the likelihood of uprisings in both our established and newly acquired counties. Here is a report from the Queen’s spies showing the likelihood of such risings in the realm at the moment. Clearly, differing culture and religion are the main underlying causes of grievance. These are not a problem where your ruling vassals have the same background as the people they rule. There are some localised issues in Kostroma, Ingria and Moskva that disturb what should otherwise be stable counties."
Rurik would prefer not to have this happen while off conquering or raiding!
Chap39 Q3: Revolt Risk. I haven’t focused on this before. Perhaps I should have. The mention of revolt risk reduction in the ‘Realm Prosper’ ambition prompted me to look at it. I’ve been lucky and have had no peasant revolts as yet. How do the figures on the map look? Is that -1 reduction perhaps worth considering? Or don’t these numbers cause you much worry. Of course, the more counties under rule, the more chance one of these might trigger and that could be quite pesky, I imagine. Welcome any general views and comments.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
News of the World
King Rurik was also interested in where the expanded realm of Garðariki now stood in comparison to others in the known world. Scribes had been commissioned to come up with the best knowledge available to them to come up with an honest listing or relative strengths. One was army size [in this case the notional maximum levy strength of the ruler’s personal demesne seemed to be the most prevalent measure to hand - I assume that's what it is, anyway]. The other related to the estimated number of holdings within each realm [presumably these could be multiple holdings per country in rich and well-developed realms].
Chap39 Q4: Ledger Stats. Have I got that right for those two items under the ledger? It certainly looks that way for the army comparison, anyway.
In potential military strength, Garðariki now came in at 16th. Though at present, Rurik could muster fewer than 1,900 of the full notional levy strength of 5,258. The mighty Byzantine Empire, with over 21,000, had almost twice as many to notionally draw upon than those in second place – Syria, closely followed by Andalusia and Hungary (all those three with over 10,000), then West Francia and Egypt (with more than 9,000 each). Denmark, the Arabian Empire, Kosala and Sviþjod rounded out those with the ten largest potential militaries.
A 13th century illustration of the Battle of Lalakaon, between the Byzantines and Arabs, in 863 CE.
In terms of realm size, Kosala was the largest with 247 holdings [?], followed closely by the Byzantines with 236. About 60 further back came Hungary and the Arabians, then Andalusia, Italy, Karnata and West Francia a further 40 or more behind them. Kamarupa and Sviþjod rounded out the ‘top ten’, both with fewer than a hundred holdings. Here, Garðaríki was way down the list, ranked 36th with only 24 holdings.
The world as known to King Rurik in 880 CE. An indication has been made where the realm names in the lists above differ from those illustrated on the map.
All this made for interesting reading for Rurik, who wished for his realm to climb to eventually climb to the top of both these measures, no matter how long and how many successors it may take. That definitely would not be an easy task. But then, waking dreams are the stuff of legends – and the makings of great dynasties.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Questions
While advice of all types is always welcomed by the open-minded Rurik, this next Þing is principally focused on the issue of future directions. To conquer, or to raid and build? If conquest, where?
Ch39 Q1. Shipyard Capacity. Mainly an observation, but also double-checking something: it seems some counties, even though they are coastal (such as Karjala) don’t even have the option of building a shipyard. I wonder what the basis for determining that is. The other is in Ääninen, where would the built ships appear? Only on the north (White Sea) coast, therefore having to make it the long way around Scandinavia and then the Baltic to get to Garðaríki proper? Or (I’m assuming not, because there is no channel from the north to the lakes) could they appear in one of the lakes (Ladoga or Onega)? I’m assuming not, because Ladoga county (mine) has access to the lake and thence the sea via the channel past Ingria, but has no capacity to build a shipyard, thus my assumption they can only be built on sea coasts, and that is thus where the ships would appear. If so, this makes Ääninen less attractive as a shipyard acquisition.
Chap39 Q2: Conquer or Raid? This is a question of views on what might be done next. First, I’d be interested in thoughts on the options, within what was considered, but also whether you think I should not have discounted something else. But mainly, whether it should be one more conquest at least for now or change direction for a while and raid again (always a good Viking option too). And if conquest, which might we target.
Chap39 Q3: Revolt Risk. I haven’t focused on this before. Perhaps I should have. The mention of revolt risk reduction in the ‘Realm Prosper’ ambition prompted me to look at it. I’ve been lucky and have had no peasant revolts as yet. How do the figures on the map look? Is that -1 reduction perhaps worth considering? Or don’t these numbers cause you much worry. Of course, the more counties under rule, the more chance one of these might trigger and that could be quite pesky, I imagine. Welcome any general views and comments.
Chap39 Q4: Ledger Stats. Have I got that right for those two items under the ledger? It certainly looks that way for the army comparison, anyway.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
There is much thinking to be done by the learned of the realm and some important decisions for King Rurik to make as he seeks to recover from his disastrous seclusion of the month before.
I await correction, but I wonder if Q1 is down to different technology levels/religion.
As for Q2 - raid. What is the worst that could happen?
As for Q2 - raid. What is the worst that could happen?
Q1: Lagoda is considered a lake, not ocean, so the provinces bordering it (and not otherwise bordering oceans) are not considered coastal.
Q2: Conquering is nice, but gavelkind can make weird things happen (auto forming top-level titles so othe sons get stuff). Make sure you don't conquer to the point you could usurp or create a second kingdom. Beyond that, I tend to have a preference for raiding.
Q3: It would be an annoyance if you had a revolt, but I can't speak to the risk reduction.
Q4: I think you're right, but I'm not sure
Q2: Conquering is nice, but gavelkind can make weird things happen (auto forming top-level titles so othe sons get stuff). Make sure you don't conquer to the point you could usurp or create a second kingdom. Beyond that, I tend to have a preference for raiding.
Q3: It would be an annoyance if you had a revolt, but I can't speak to the risk reduction.
Q4: I think you're right, but I'm not sure
From my reading of the conditions on the mouse-overs, it talks about war declared, and you don’t declare war for raids (I guess they are more like vigorous commercial ventures
). But I don’t really know so hence the open question on what could be a wrong assumption.
Can confirm that you can only build along the coasts of sea provinces, and that Ladoga and Onega Lakes are, well, classed as lakes.
Can also confirm that the "See the Realm Prosper" ambition only cares about whether you're in a state of declared war -- for pagans and tribals, apparently, raiding is just "business as usual"
Honestly, I'd take the ambition and spend that time on another raiding expedition; it'll build up your coffers and your prestige quickly, plus it'll give some time for your Threat level to cool down and reduce the threat of the defensive pacts.Revolts can happen any time the revolt risk is above zero, so I wouldn't take it for granted, but aside from Kostroma and Ingria I think you're relatively "safe." I don't think -1% is really going to matter in the grand scheme of things by itself, but when stacked with other revolt risk debuffs it can help keep things a little more manageable if you have a few problem spots. The big option for short-term revolt risk suppression (i.e. not stuff like cultural and religious conversion) is using your Marshal to Suppress Rebels in a target province; the revolt risk reduction from that scales to their Martial score. I'm not 100% sure whether that particular job is available to tribals, though.
Looks right to me
"Realm Size" is indeed total number of holdings under your control, including all baronies and all provinces held by vassals.
They are compatible so far as I am aware. Ive only ever used the 5 year peace as a roleplaying tool however and a couple times to check what it does. Then again I've found its one of the only ones I have open to me after a few decades with one character.
It's somewhat useful I guess for building tall and old rulers. And in your case, people stuck under the badboy system (and not powerful enough to just blast through it for even more prestige farming). War chest however I dont like. Stewing up rebellions and ruining tax bases for a couple quid.
...
And as they said, the lakes are lakes. And the sea's the sea.
Mm...not sure which target to go for. The best ones would be the scandinavian ones though. Those huge eastern gatherings are just...something to marry into and inherit instead I think. Or wait for realm divide to kick in. Pray Hungary gets problems too because I suspect they are going into Scandinavian lands too through denmark.
Revolt risk is nothing much to worry about. Religion and culture does it far more often than peasents getting angry with your rule...though it can happen.
And realm size tends to count land and vassals separately. Realms tend to need a good amount of vassals and lands split between them to be both powerful and stable.
It's somewhat useful I guess for building tall and old rulers. And in your case, people stuck under the badboy system (and not powerful enough to just blast through it for even more prestige farming). War chest however I dont like. Stewing up rebellions and ruining tax bases for a couple quid.
...
And as they said, the lakes are lakes. And the sea's the sea.
Mm...not sure which target to go for. The best ones would be the scandinavian ones though. Those huge eastern gatherings are just...something to marry into and inherit instead I think. Or wait for realm divide to kick in. Pray Hungary gets problems too because I suspect they are going into Scandinavian lands too through denmark.
Revolt risk is nothing much to worry about. Religion and culture does it far more often than peasents getting angry with your rule...though it can happen.
And realm size tends to count land and vassals separately. Realms tend to need a good amount of vassals and lands split between them to be both powerful and stable.
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Ah...ignore most of what i said about counties. It's been over a month since I played CKII and the devs have revamped eastern europe, russia and the western steppes.
Uh...right. I dont know how up to date your map is so can't really give much advice. What I used to be able to suggest was that the scandinavian provinces were a better shot because they are very easy to defend and it's very easy to make a scandiavian empire. However, Russia looks to be a little easier to form in this version and the other empires around it have been downsized.
So long as you are sticking to raiding and paganism, the peninsula is still your best shout. It's only bad aspects are how shockingly poor the land is and how few people there are in it...but raiding offsets the former and as for population...you're Russia...
Uh...right. I dont know how up to date your map is so can't really give much advice. What I used to be able to suggest was that the scandinavian provinces were a better shot because they are very easy to defend and it's very easy to make a scandiavian empire. However, Russia looks to be a little easier to form in this version and the other empires around it have been downsized.
So long as you are sticking to raiding and paganism, the peninsula is still your best shout. It's only bad aspects are how shockingly poor the land is and how few people there are in it...but raiding offsets the former and as for population...you're Russia...
I don’t have Jade Dragon and will hold off on it due to said map changes, but have everything before it, so your previous advice/thoughts should still hold.