BoPMOD

[Eraclio]

Historical accuracy.

Again you don't answer to kind.
If also the current maps are "not accurate", why I might make the historical map "accurate"? (if you think that google maps is not an accurate map)

Would you have a problem if I cited wikipedia? Its the best I want to look for while I'm at work.

Yes, but obviously these flood disaster are only the main flood disaster, and in 838 will be only the "First Great Water Disaster" as you can see here
You supposed that "It wasn't the Waddenzee back then, it was lake flavo, which was freshwater until some flood or other in the 1100s. It couldn't have been freshwater if it was flooded during high tide." I require source links.

The only mention in my link I found of a place being intertidal was this:

The back-barrier intertidal and estuarine deposits were formed during two main periods of transgression: during the Atlantic (8000 - 5000 yr BP) and during the Subatlantic (3000 yr BP to the present).

Therefore, what is now waddenzee were not intertidal during the time period of this game.

Ah, ok, so your source map that have in the most part of Wadden sea the intertidal area is wrong.

Even then, what I was thinking about is what is now the zuiderzee (which is what lake flavo became).

Ok, I can separate the zuiderzee with a border line.

This your question was already answered several times by me. Mainland in AD 700 was much larger than nowadays.

Again you don't answer to kind. I didn't ask you for the mainland extension, but another question, that I won't repeat because I've already wrote 6 times.

It's not true when you say that all the Frisian islands are nowadays a mainland

I already knew it, I've only explained with an inaccuracy

Normal and terrain Google map is NOT showing any mainland as islands.
Normal and terrain Google map is showing islands only on places where really ARE the islands.
You can easily check it by looking at satellite images.

Or show me the Google map, that is showing the mainland as islands:
Bring here the map showing islands, and a satellite image where the area is in fact mainland

Ok, maybe I don't understood. Some islands are: Texel, Vlieland, Terschelling. I meat also these islands.

I could post my map of central asia and iran now if you would like. In the places that were populated, I think I've reach the point where some will have to go--especially along the silk road. There are some cities mapped out in the rest of the middle east, and the west indian coast, but I've generally left those regions alone, unless you'd rather have me take care of those places too.

Thanks
I will be finish before coasts (that maybe require a month), then rivers and lakes (that require an half month), and then the provinces...

So I haven't hurry.

How many cities did you've drawn? Have many in central Asia and how many in the current Iran?

Thanks again.

 

[orimazd]

Again you don't answer to kind.
If also the current maps are "not accurate", why I might make the historical map "accurate"? (if you think that google maps is not an accurate map)

The current maps are accurate for today, but in the rare cases, like the netherlands, in which case the coast line has changed considerably, it is not accurate.



Yes, but obviously these flood disaster are only the main flood disaster, and in 838 will be only the "First Great Water Disaster" as you can see here
You supposed that "It wasn't the Waddenzee back then, it was lake flavo, which was freshwater until some flood or other in the 1100s. It couldn't have been freshwater if it was flooded during high tide." I require source links.

Ah, ok, so your source map that have in the most part of Wadden sea the intertidal area is wrong.

You were looking at the wrong map in the link I gave you. The pinkish colour in the map of modern netherlands represented intertidal areas. However, the key to that map was not the key to the map I showed you.

I will call this map figure 20 c since that's what they call it. The key to the map is:

and the map in question is this:

As you can see from the key, the huge pink area represents peat marshes. And...the waddenzee is intertidal (baby-puke green coloured) in the map. Nevermind, you win this one (possibly not, now that I think about it)! However, even when taking the intertidal areas into account, the landform looks quite different from its appearance today. But did people live on the intertidal lands? They do live on the intertidal lands of today, like zeeland and friesland, and probably have since humans came there before they were intertidal. Just because it is intertidal doesn't mean we leave it off maps in paradox games (and you put zeeland in your map).

Thanks
I will be finish before coasts (that maybe require a month), then rivers and lakes (that require an half month), and then the provinces...

So I haven't hurry.

How many cities did you've drawn? Have many in central Asia and how many in the current Iran?

Thanks again.

At my latest count, 67 cities, almost all of which are in central asia and Iran. That's more than you think considering the deserts nobody lives in. I'm uploading the map onto imageshack now.

EDIT:

 

[Eraclio]

The current maps are accurate for today, but in the rare cases, like the netherlands, in which case the coast line has changed considerably, it is not accurate.

Ok, but I repeat what I wrote:

If also the current maps are "not accurate", why I might make the historical map "accurate"?

You were looking at the wrong map in the link I gave you. The pinkish colour in the map of modern netherlands represented intertidal areas. However, the key to that map was not the key to the map I showed you.

I don't understand what you've wrote in this last quote. The pink is peat marshes, don't it?

I will call this map figure 20 c since that's what they call it. The key to the map is:

(...)

As you can see from the key, the huge pink area represents peat marshes. And...the waddenzee is intertidal (baby-puke green coloured) in the map. Nevermind, you win this one (possibly not, now that I think about it)! However, even when taking the intertidal areas into account, the landform looks quite different from its appearance today. But did people live on the intertidal lands? They do live on the intertidal lands of today, like zeeland and friesland, and probably have since humans came there before they were intertidal. Just because it is intertidal doesn't mean we leave it off maps in paradox games (and you put zeeland in your map).

Ok, but just because it's an intertidal also doesn't mean we add it indeed to the map

At my latest count, 67 cities, almost all of which are in central asia and Iran. That's more than you think considering the deserts nobody lives in. I'm uploading the map onto imageshack now.

(...)

Ok. I will add these cities in the map certainly, but I want to add many other cities in that area. I think that I will start to draw provinces in november, so if you want to find other cities in that area you have my consent.

 

[orimazd]

Ok, but I repeat what I wrote:

If also the current maps are "not accurate", why I might make the historical map "accurate"?

The only answer I can give is that it would be cool to make your map match up with what's historically accurate. That's all I can give you.

I don't understand what you've wrote in this last quote. The pink is peat marshes, don't it?

Yes. I was confused at first, but that's been cleared up. I don't think I saw the key to the map before today, because it feels weird to be looking at maps at work if I'm on a computer.

Ok, but just because it's an intertidal also doesn't mean we add it indeed to the map

You don't have to, but, as I said, it would be cool. Your mod would be the only map mod which does this properly to the time period.

Ok. I will add these cities in the map certainly, but I want to add many other cities in that area. I think that I will start to draw provinces in november, so if you want to find other cities in that area you have my consent.

I think that map is about two weeks worth of work, or really more like four hours of work total. So yeah, in a month, when you are just starting to draw provinces, it will have a lot more. By then I hope to make the entirety of the map (where possible...in the deserts it won't happen, and on the steppes it won't happen either) look like what I did with with the silk road there.

Do you have anyone working on China, or did you hand pretty much all of Asia to me?

 

[KaRei]

Well, about the Netherlands I can't say more, because everything was already said and we are just repeating the same thing over again and again. So I am quiting that discussion.
You have our opinions, sources, maps, etc. so you can evaluate them and use what will be the best for your mod

Just a question. How are you getting latin names for India and Indo-China?
And will be also China present in your mod?

 

[Eraclio]

(...)
You don't have to, but, as I said, it would be cool. Your mod would be the only map mod which does this properly to the time period.

Ok I will discuss this matter with my italian friends, and we will decide. Before however I want to end all the coasts of the world included in the map.

I think that map is about two weeks worth of work, or really more like four hours of work total. So yeah, in a month, when you are just starting to draw provinces, it will have a lot more.

Precisely one month and an half, because I might draw also lakes and rivers.

By then I hope to make the entirety of the map (where possible...in the deserts it won't happen, and on the steppes it won't happen either) look like what I did with with the silk road there.

When there weren't cities, we could add as provinces name the peoples name that lives in that place.

Do you have anyone working on China, or did you hand pretty much all of Asia to me?

Up to now nobody working on Asia. For India maybe I could find a book for ancient name of cities, but for China I can't find nobody and anything.

Well, about the Netherlands I can't say more, because everything was already said and we are just repeating the same thing over again and again. So I am quiting that discussion.
You have our opinions, sources, maps, etc. so you can evaluate them and use what will be the best for your mod

IMO we can continue to chat about this topic, but I prefer the answers to kind

Just a question. How are you getting latin names for India and Indo-China?
And will be also China present in your mod?

For latin names in the first post of topic I wrote this

7) The names of the provinces and the names of the cities will be wherever possible in Latin.

Therefore, for India, China, Indocina, Indonesia is impossible to get latin names.

In my map there will be all lands between Western Africa and Indonesia, so also China for example. Now I specify better this feature in the first message of the topic.

EDIT: all lands will be without PTI, a part from in the dwarfish part of Australia and Madagascar that will be in my Map, and maybe a part of Siberia.

 

[Eraclio]

Eastern Africa

 

[Eraclio]

Do you have anyone working on China, or did you hand pretty much all of Asia to me?

I ask today to Llywelyn if you help me with China.
Anyway he gave me this link

I don't know if you have time for China. I hope it, but I want to finish map in a few time (maybe in this year), so if you search Iran and Central Asia province is an excellent thing.

The day after tomorrow I will post more Eastern Asia coasts.

 

[martmol]

wow, my post sparked a discussion of 2 pages. a succefull troll i can say.

 

[Eraclio]

Eastern Africa coasts complete

 

[orimazd]

I returned from a trip recently, and in some spare time, I headed to a university library or two and got some information for the mod (how I wish I had access to the cambridge history of iran without travelling for thirteen hours). Lots of important cities and leads, but not too many because I was there to have fun.

 

[Eraclio]

Ok, so I prefer if you search only iranian and central asian cities, because you couldn't search too many someone

 

[orimazd]

Ok, so I prefer if you search only iranian and central asian cities, because you couldn't search too many someone

Exactly what I did while I was there, stretching pretty far into Xinjiang. However, I did pretty good on India before I left, I wouldn't mind if you asked me to get the cities which were important at the time of the mod.

 

[Eraclio]

Exactly what I did while I was there, stretching pretty far into Xinjiang. However, I did pretty good on India before I left, I wouldn't mind if you asked me to get the cities which were important at the time of the mod.

I will add only cities that were in that period. The important cities maybe you had already add in the last map.

Today I finished Europe coasts, the day last yesterday african coasts. Remain asian coasts.



Northern Europe

Today I've changed borders of some provinces in Wales.



Ireland and Great Britain

 

[Eraclio]

Arabian Peninsula

 

[Eraclio]

Arabia Peninsula

 

[Eraclio]

Tomorrow probably I will post more asian coasts.

 

[nurgles_herald]

Unless you're going to have some kind of feudal/vassalage system in place, or some way for really big kingdoms to fall apart very easily, having a whole bunch of provinces is actually a *really* bad idea. Especially since you are trying to do it based upon population/importance. By the numbers of provinces you've placed in Germany and Great Britain, you're going to end up with a disgusting number of provinces in Asia Minor, North Africa, Italy, and the Middle East. The eastern part of the Empire was by far and away the richer and more populous section of Roman Empire. If you're really going to have 65ish (?) provinces in Germany, each of those regions would end up with at least 100. Never mind the rest of the world.

 

[Eraclio]

Thanks for your advice.

Unless you're going to have some kind of feudal/vassalage system in place, or some way for really big kingdoms to fall apart very easily, having a whole bunch of provinces is actually a *really* bad idea. Especially since you are trying to do it based upon population/importance.

The population is not directly related to provinces density.

By the numbers of provinces you've placed in Germany and Great Britain, you're going to end up with a disgusting number of provinces in Asia Minor, North Africa, Italy, and the Middle East.

It's impossible to set a country without at least one province. Therefore, if there were in Ireland more than 20 kingdoms, is impossible to set more than 20 kingdoms with less than 20 province in the map.

The eastern part of the Empire was by far and away the richer and more populous section of Roman Empire.

Ok, but in Eu2 the wealth of a province isn't only related to the population (that I can anyway set less in each province of GB), but also in province.csv, with the base tax.

If you're really going to have 65ish (?) provinces in Germany, each of those regions would end up with at least 100.

Current Turkey -> about 35

Current Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco -> about 110

Current Italy -> about 45

If with "Middle East" you meant the current Iraq, Siria, Iran and Arabic peninsula there will be more than 100 provinces...

Never mind the rest of the world.

Aren't enough 45 provinces in Italy? MyMAP have 25 province.
I also remember that with Germany I meant the current Germany, not Germania Magna, that will have about 100 provinces.

Thanks anyway for your advice

 

[Eraclio]

Arabic peninsula