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Breaking non aggression pacts and the consequences

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JodelDiplom said:
Jopa you're not answering the question.
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Indeed I am. I was asked by Yakman, that how so the Allied pre-WWII politics enabled the USSR to become a superpower? My answer to this question is, that leaving Poland alone and not respecting the agreement signed, the Allies gave the others - for Germany and the Soviet Union - a free hand opportunity in this matter. The Allies again closed their eyes while the Soviet Union practiced expansionism considering Finland and the Baltic States.

During the end-game of the WWII, the Allies had two opportunities - in Tehran and in Yalta - to influence the creation of the post-war Europe. Again Roosevelt and Churchill did care a very little about the Eastern Europe, they allowed Stalin to spread communism and the creation of the satellite states for the USSR. After the WWII, Stalin was at the top of the tree, mastering Eastern Europe and partly Scandinavia - Finlandization is used to describe a process by which a powerful country obliges the minor to adapt foreign policy rules.
 
Jopa79 said:
During the end-game of the WWII, the Allies had two opportunities - in Tehran and in Yalta - to influence the creation of the post-war Europe. Again Roosevelt and Churchill did care a very little about the Eastern Europe, they allowed Stalin to spread communism and the creation of the satellite states for the USSR. After the WWII, Stalin was at the top of the tree, mastering Eastern Europe and partly Scandinavia - Finlandization is used to describe a process by which a powerful country obliges the minor to adapt foreign policy rules.
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They had very little chance to significantly influence the creation of post-war Europe. They could negotiate which nations would fall under Soviet influence but not prevent it from happening. Why would the Western Allies want to throw, for example, the Greeks (who were loyal allies and suffered German occupation) under the bus to help the Fins (who were German allies)?

Finland was a minor nation who had actively participated on the German side. Both Poland and Bulgaria suffered worse fates and neither participated in meaningful armed conflict against the Allies. The Western Allies were not capable of simultaneously restraining both German and Soviet aggression, and even restraining just the German aggression required massive inputs from the Soviet Union and involved the largest and bloodiest war in human history. Fighting the Soviet Union before, during or after is neither sensible nor moral.

What were the Allies supposed to do about Soviet aggression? They used all their diplomatic weight to oppose them, including expelling them from the League of Nations, but ultimately they were paper tigers and Stalin knew it. Do you really think declaring war against the Soviet Union and Germany at the same time would have been a good course of action?
 
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Jopa79 said:
Indeed I am. I was asked by Yakman, that how so the Allied pre-WWII politics enabled the USSR to become a superpower? My answer to this question is, that leaving Poland alone and not respecting the agreement signed, the Allies gave the others - for Germany and the Soviet Union - a free hand opportunity in this matter. The Allies again closed their eyes while the Soviet Union practiced expansionism considering Finland and the Baltic States.

During the end-game of the WWII, the Allies had two opportunities - in Tehran and in Yalta - to influence the creation of the post-war Europe. Again Roosevelt and Churchill did care a very little about the Eastern Europe, they allowed Stalin to spread communism and the creation of the satellite states for the USSR.
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The Allies had little choice in either matter.
 
The Allies always had a choice!

They could have chosen to implement operation Unthinkable. . . and give Stalin Paris.
 
Allied pre war politics didn't allow the USSR to become a superpower. The USSR would have become a superpower regardless of what the Allies did or did not do. Russia is just that big and the population of the USSR just that huge. Their own industrialization was what gave them the means to defeat the German invasion, and later build atomic bombs. The strength of the USSR came from within not from border territories they annexed in 1939/40.

Even presuming there never is a German invasion of the USSR, the soviets still get to have the biggest military in the world, build a titanic industrial civilization, split the atom, and be the one big superpower opposing the coalition of capitalist and capitalist aligned western powers.

Allied pre war politics didn't allow the USSR to become a superpower. The USSR would have become a superpower regardless of what the Allies did or did not do.
 
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JodelDiplom said:
Allied pre war politics didn't allow the USSR to become a superpower. The USSR would have become a superpower regardless of what the Allies did or did not do. Russia is just that big and the population of the USSR just that huge. Their own industrialization was what gave them the means to defeat the German invasion, and later build atomic bombs. The strength of the USSR came from within not from border territories they annexed in 1939/40.

Even presuming there never is a German invasion of the USSR, the soviets still get to have the biggest military in the world, build a titanic industrial civilization, split the atom, and be the one big superpower opposing the coalition of capitalist and capitalist aligned western powers.

Allied pre war politics didn't allow the USSR to become a superpower. The USSR would have become a superpower regardless of what the Allies did or did not do.
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They could delay or hasten it (like China nowadays, or pre WWI USA), but they were always a major player due to the size (even excluding wastelands), and even in the current state they are.
 
Ming said:
The Allies always had a choice!

They could have chosen to implement operation Unthinkable. . . and give Stalin Paris
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1598268730178.jpeg
 
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Ming said:
The Allies always had a choice!

They could have chosen to implement operation Unthinkable. . . and give Stalin Paris.
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Because the armies with less tanks and planes can roll over the armies which do have more. All the while every industrial center and infrastructure hub gets a makeover by nuclear fire.
 
Mder1 said:
Because the armies with less tanks and planes can roll over the armies which do have more. All the while every industrial center and infrastructure hub gets a makeover by nuclear fire.
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Well, I think the USA had only few nukes ready to use by the end of 1945, and rather weak ones :)
However I agree with the rest. Any advanced Soviet division would have been smashed by Allied air force like Panzer Lehr during Operation Cobra.
Also, Soviet manpower has been becoming depleted.
 
Mder1 said:
Because the armies with less tanks and planes can roll over the armies which do have more. All the while every industrial center and infrastructure hub gets a makeover by nuclear fire.
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Just think about it once more... we are in the middle of the last great Soviet famines

Soviet famine of 1946–1947 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Their soldiers are highly motivated to get to Paris, or any nearby source of food.
 
bz249 said:
Just think about it once more... we are in the middle of the last great Soviet famines

Soviet famine of 1946–1947 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Their soldiers are highly motivated to get to Paris, or any nearby source of food.
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Paris was not a source of food though unless the soviet soldiers were into cannibalism.

In summer 1945 all of western Europe was undernourished and wholly dependant on US food and fuel deliveries. West Germany would also see famine in 1946/47, east Germany the same. There wasn't much to plunder.
 
Why exactly are the Allies eager to start a new war against their erstwhile ally? For Estonia?

This is just laughable.

In 1945 people (rightly) just wanted to go home.
 
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The Hansa fought for Estonia. Why shouldn't the Allies?
 
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pithorr said:
Right, but we were talking about Ruskies in Paris :)
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The Russkies weren't going to Paris. They wanted to go home, just like everyone else.
 
pithorr said:
It didn't matter what they wanted, but what one Georgian with mustache did :p
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He didn't want to go to Paris either. He didn't want a war with Germany to start with. ;)
 
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