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INDIVIDUAL ARMIES WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE TO MANAGE
INDIVIDUAL ARMIES WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE TO MANAGE
INDIVIDUAL ARMIES WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE TO MANAGE
Imagine the horror Hearts of Iron IV and EUIV developers had to go through daily after designing all those filthy systems to manage disgusting individual armies. Suffering under smug gazes of Victoria 3 devs, who look at their luddite backwards games, that scrape for unwashed ugly and uneducated masses of plebean gamers - tens of thousands of them. All moving toy soldiers. Figurines made of filth. Digital statues of depravity.
Instead of enjoying a select few - cream and elite grand Strategy Economic-not-warfare community.
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Individual armies are nightmare to manage.
HoI partially deals with it - first, it has Front system, that takes away some burden from the player, second, it is a game actually focused on warfare, so player IS expected to spend most time and attention managing it.
Lategame EU4 armies are horrible to manage, when you already span for several continents, and you wage wars on different fronts at the same time, as catching the enemy army/running away from enemy is often matter of days, and if you focus on one front for too long, you might lose control of another.
CK3 is the same as EU4, armies management is so horrible for larger countries, that Devs already realized it, and implemented AI army management option in latest version.

Individual armies in Vic3 would be horrible. It would be worse, than EU4, as many countries already start spread across many continents. Individual armies needed to go, the game needed some higher level of abstraction to represent the warfare, and the Devs decision to try something new was wise. It's the execution that went wrong. Right now, Front-based system requires as much attention as individual units, while being less intuitive. It's clear, that Front-based one is a failed experiment, and we need something else. But definitely not reverting to individual units.
 
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No offense, but I feel some people basically want HoI4 whose economy and politics is not reliant on completing focuses. Not realizing that HoI4 mechanics work because you don't have to take your attention to these features.

The truth about Victoria3's combat is that it satisfied nobody, not the people who want insane micro, nor the people who want hands off approach to war. The promised macro decision making didn't really arrive, and instead it imported the annoyances from the previous systems.

And another issue is with the time period itself. This era is pure industrialized warfare, the ability to mobilize most men and ammunition wins. There is no fancy mobile tanks with their encirclements, or planes with strategic bombing. It might seem "boring", but this setting is perfect way to represent the economic aspect of war compared to other titles, and thats the problem, it fails at it. For example, Military production is VERY easy to set up, few levels of factories can sustain massive army and improved PMs help even further along the game. Then stuff like infrastructure, I never felt that building up railways have improved my capability to wage war much. Lets say If I am Argentina and I am invading Chile, I would imagine constructing railways to and along their border be one most of crucial parts in winning the war, considering how massive, remote and inaccessible that region is, I mean that area would be larger than the entire Eastern Front of WW2, yet I can just walk in.
 
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the only reason i play vic3 out of all the paradox games is because it doesnt got eu4 style military, i dont want movable units, i want one massive front. whoever got superior army, tech, logistics, economy wins.
 
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There is no fancy mobile tanks with their encirclements, or planes with strategic bombing. It might seem "boring", but this setting is perfect way to represent the economic aspect of war compared to other titles, and thats the problem, it fails at it. For example, Military production is VERY easy to set up, few levels of factories can sustain massive army and improved PMs help even further along the game. Then stuff like infrastructure, I never felt that building up railways have improved my capability to wage war much. Lets say If I am Argentina and I am invading Chile, I would imagine constructing railways to and along their border be one most of crucial parts in winning the war, considering how massive, remote and inaccessible that region is, I mean that area would be larger than the entire Eastern Front of WW2, yet I can just walk in.

i feel this is a far more functional form of critique and feedback than the endless discussions regarding design philosophy that would result in red x wars, like this "bring back unit stacks" is about. Its not like bringing back unit stacks would fix the issues you touch.

It is afcourse somewhat relative to the situation how easy it is. For populous and backward countries that would like to make use of a large mobilization pool it can be more tricky than for your average western nation, especially if said western nation can just easily import guns and ammo. Well in fact even 3rd rate asian powers can import guns and ammo with good trade allies, though not if you have isolationism which some have.

If i'm playing japan for example, then i find it functional that i would be able to call up say 150 units of line infantry just in case some European aggressor comes knocking on my door. I wont be able to trade for them with isolationism, so the count can be made for what i need at minimum and at optimal rate. A basic gun factory at basic pm produces 30 guns, a unit of line infantry uses 1 gun per 1000 so i'm looking at a max consumption of 150. So 3 factories will do if i dont mind paying extra but as Japan i will mind, but lets say half is standing army and half is conscripts then those 3 factories and its feeding iron mine are fine and whenever someone starts a diplo play against me i just add 2 factories and an iron mine and that will cover the conscripts. If i get to those 5 factories in time of war trick will be to spread them out in size 1 factories over provinces that contain troops which is functional with MAPI in mind and which will prevent them from devolving in size when demand drops afterwards. And those 3 factories would be functional throughout the game, better troops will demand more guns but better production methods will proportionally add relatively as much extra guns. So the thing is its not a lot that you need early on to set it up but setting it up early on is when the price is the highest vs what other things you could build instead, still if it was double or even triple the need it wouldnt feel off that i would actually need to build at minimum 9 factories and 3 feeding iron mines to feed such an army. Easy to mod, might be interesting to play an Asiatic power with gun and ammo demand tripled for unit types.

Still, i guess its not only a arguable issue of "not enough demand", i certainly see my arms industries depleted of workforce more often than not, but from another perspective it also takes a fair time to actually build barracks in comparison to factories (lest to speak about the time required to get ships up versus a factory)which perhaps should be reduced in time in comparison and otoh perhaps production methods should not add proportionally as much as new unit types would demand so that as game progresses your arms industry and the amount of workforce that goes into it actually has to grow and your not ready by building a few factories at start.

it would perhaps also be good to double or triple the needs for mobilization options, and then double or triple its effect too so that such options become rather important. If it's about industrial warfare then you do want players to be weary of just how much extra demand an option would add especially if they lack that good.

So yeah, even with having some knowledge of gun types that were around in the ACW and how the progression of arming troops went, there is reason to argue that the required amount of factories to feed your troops should be higher, even though granted the union had mobilized a huge army even in game terms. Granted that on a matter of trade there was a serious volume of arms imports and plenty of naval action to try interdict such things. The union had the Spencer repeater rifle for example, which was pretty advanced for its time but was not chosen to be put in mass production as the ammo requirements to feed an army with such rifles would be way to high. That latter contemplation is something you want players to make regarding their own armies in the game i would think when its about industrial warfare.
 
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INDIVIDUAL ARMIES WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE TO MANAGE
INDIVIDUAL ARMIES WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE TO MANAGE
INDIVIDUAL ARMIES WOULD BE A NIGHTMARE TO MANAGE
Imagine the horror Hearts of Iron IV and EUIV developers had to go through daily after designing all those filthy systems to manage disgusting individual armies. Suffering under smug gazes of Victoria 3 devs, who look at their luddite backwards games, that scrape for unwashed ugly and uneducated masses of plebean gamers - tens of thousands of them. All moving toy soldiers. Figurines made of filth. Digital statues of depravity.
Instead of enjoying a select few - cream and elite grand Strategy Economic-not-warfare community.
Tell me you're playing tabletop figurine wargames and are pedantic about this kind of game without telling me you're playing tabletop figurine wargames and are pedantic about this kind of game.

Economy and diplomacy in hoi4 are set up and forget.
Economy and diplomacy in eu4 are… you can play without actually.
Economy and diplomacy in vic3 are to be managed to win… more economy than diplomacy though. Vic3 needs a better war system but direct control is not it.
 
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Tell me you're playing tabletop figurine wargames and are pedantic about this kind of game without telling me you're playing tabletop figurine wargames and are pedantic about this kind of game.

Economy and diplomacy in hoi4 are set up and forget.
Economy and diplomacy in eu4 are… you can play without actually.
Economy and diplomacy in vic3 are to be managed to win… more economy than diplomacy though. Vic3 needs a better war system but direct control is not it.
No, don't you get it??? Its not a real game unless I can move my shooty men around.

It's always okay to abstract economy, but never military. Every strategy game must be EU with a new era coat of paint. No moving my shooty men around = no strategy.

Sure CK3 and HoI4 and EU4 have limited economic mechanics, but that's okay - they have toy soldiers. Vic isn't allowed to have it's own identity and mechanical focuses - first it must have toy soldiers I can move around the map so I feel like I'm playing a real game. Then maybe it can have some economic mechanics (as a treat), but only if the military is the primary focus so I can just ignore the economic mechanics because of my ability to move toy soldiers around the map.

Sure, basically every strategy game with a military focus (read: all of them) has a meta that revolves entirely around the use of military force at the expense of all other mechanics. But thats okay, because that just means they're real games where you click buttons and men shoot and the player gets a dopamine rush.

Sure, Vic is basically the only game even attempting to do what it's doing, but who needs uniqueness or innovation? Who needs new ideas? Art? Historiography? What are those??? Feed me my content that is in my comfort zone. No new ideas! There was a new idea and it wasn't immediately good? Throw it out entirely, don't bother iterating on and improving it, just give me what I already like from other games, and make this one a dull and derivative copy of what I already know.

It would be an especially good idea to turn Vic 3 into an EU knockoff right before EU5 comes out too - that way it can alienate the section of the audience that wants something unique and fresh (losers) in order to chase the audience that wants EU and will immediately drop it to play EU5 in a few months (based chads). It's just good business.
 
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At the end of the day i think that no matter what the Vic3 dev team does they will never be able to salvage the warfare system (not even a gutting and entire rework of the system would fix it) Because Paradox is incapable of producing a functioning AI. You can see it in Vic3 with how the AI struggles to even utilize their nation as any even half decent player can easily reach number 1 gp if no mods 'fixing' how the AI functions actually are installed. As the only basis for GP status is how big one's economy is. Not their prestige, not their military size, purely their GDP.

For that reason, and that reason alone i believe the only real solution is a pure trashing of the warfare system leaving it as a purely vague 'warfare' system. No building units, no templates. The game simply takes into consideration population, conscription, technologies, and what types of weapons are produced. You can 'declare' a war for a province/war reps/etc. but at most the only real interaction warfare wise aside from economic and political upsides and downsides would be newspapers/letters discussing particular successes or failures on the field of battle. ("X nation won the battle of x place after x period of time due to x") With maybe a little blurb by a 'commander' who won the battle.
 
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What? This is just false.
If you are talking about Prestige affecting the GP/power ranking the only thing it does (as far as I'm aware and i could be completely incorrect on this) is act as a wall to prevent less 'prestigious' nations from becoming a higher ranked power. You could inherently swap out prestige for literally anything else and it'd do the exact same thing. Prestige has only one real purpose. GDP on the other hand does literally 99% of the calculations in determining who or what is a Great/major/etc. Power.

And for the people downvoting me Victoria 3 is already basically a spreadsheet game which struggles to decide on what it's wants to be (Paradox stating that you're the 'spirit' of the nation is intentionally vague.) At least with doing effectively away with the warfare system it would help to gain some level of identity with having yourself become the civilian side of things rather than the military.. And would help to make the economic/pops side of things (the thing the vic3 devs wanted to focus on for better or for worse) more of a focus.

The Frontline system being or not being there, troops being moveable or not. These quite frankly don't matter if the core warfare system is a mess that is entirely unenjoyable for anyone. Don't get me wrong i'd like more of a military system, but it's just not feasable with how Victoria 3's skeleton is (to the point you'd need to gut effectively everything about the AI at the very least to work from the ground up). Because the AI already struggles to run their own nations in a way that makes playing with them extremely boring.
 
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If you are talking about Prestige affecting the GP/power ranking the only thing it does (as far as I'm aware and i could be completely incorrect on this) is act as a wall to prevent less 'prestigious' nations from becoming a higher ranked power. You could inherently swap out prestige for literally anything else and it'd do the exact same thing. Prestige has only one real purpose. GDP on the other hand does literally 99% of the calculations in determining who or what is a Great/major/etc. Power.

And for the people downvoting me Victoria 3 is already basically a spreadsheet game which struggles to decide on what it's wants to be (Paradox stating that you're the 'spirit' of the nation is intentionally vague.) At least with doing effectively away with the warfare system it would help to gain some level of identity with having yourself become the civilian side of things rather than the military.. And would help to make the economic/pops side of things (the thing the vic3 devs wanted to focus on for better or for worse) more of a focus.

The Frontline system being or not being there, troops being moveable or not. These quite frankly don't matter if the core warfare system is a mess that is entirely unenjoyable for anyone. Don't get me wrong i'd like more of a military system, but it's just not feasable with how Victoria 3's skeleton is (to the point you'd need to gut effectively everything about the AI at the very least to work from the ground up). Because the AI already struggles to run their own nations in a way that makes playing with them extremely boring.
I wish people would learn to play the game instead of complaining

Recognition has a much bigger impact than GDP, obviously, navy size (per $1k embodied) has a much bigger impact than GDP, and in games where you're playing against competent foes (not SP) GDP allocation and raw prestige determine more than GDP itself. Also speaking of military Humiliation impacts prestige more than every factor but recognition. You already can use your army as a stock to beat others down

Either way you're ignoring the reality that GDP is an output of several factors that should impact GP ranking. If you abuse sol and migration to triple the population of the US while building of course your GDP will go up, why should your prestige not do the same?
 
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I wish people would learn to play the game instead of complaining

Recognition has a much bigger impact than GDP, obviously, navy size (per $1k embodied) has a much bigger impact than GDP, and in games where you're playing against competent foes (not SP) GDP allocation and raw prestige determine more than GDP itself. Also speaking of military Humiliation impacts prestige more than every factor but recognition. You already can use your army as a stock to beat others down

Either way you're ignoring the reality that GDP is an output of several factors that should impact GP ranking. If you abuse sol and migration to triple the population of the US while building of course your GDP will go up, why should your prestige not do the same?
I think, what @Chang'e1 meant, was that there is really no dilemma, between prioritizing GDP or prioritizing Prestige. That's because of two reasons:
1. The Prestige isn't significant enough. The boons it gives pale in comparison with the benefits sheer economic growth provides. And once one attains GP status, Prestige can be ignored completely.
2. The GDP and production leadership effects on Prestige are big enough, to make focusing on GDP most viable strategy to increase Prestige. You just focus on economy, and your Prestige will raise as a side effect on it's own.

Because of two reasons mentioned above, the core gameplay loop centers solely on GDP growth and Construction Sectors. You want strong military to conquer your neighbours? You need Barracks and Arms Industry - you need to make more Construction Sectors. You want other countries to be dependent on you economically and diplomatically? Invest in them - build more Construction Sectors. You want to be the most prestigious country in the world? Become leader in production and raise your GDP - build more Construction Sectors. You want to progress more liberal reforms? You need more powerful TUs and Industrialists, and weaker Landowners - build more Construction Sectors. You want more Construction Sectors? Guess what - build more Construction Sectors.

Now, imagine, if Prestige would actually do something useful, and not be so easy to raise with pure economic superiority. Focusing on it might sometimes outweight the importance of expanding your Construction Sectors. You might, for example, choose between spending your Construction either on creating more Steel Mills, or use it to bulid big-ass tower in the center of your capital, to impress other nations during nearest World's Fair. Or choose between investing in new Motor Factory, or Arts Academy, that might make your artists pioneer new Preraphaelite style. Or decide between either funding new Tooling Workshops, or archeological expedition to search for ruins of Troy in Asia Minor.
 
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After playing a bit in the last days, I ran into the old frustrating issue, which I think is one major reason why I dislike the current system so much.

I was at war with UK and EIC, and one war goal was to liberate the EIC from the UK to deprive them of their crown jewel. They were fighting the French down south, so I landed in Bengal right on top of their capital with my 20k men against their 2k. So far so good.

But upon landing, at the small patch of land that is the EIC's capital, the game gave me three frontlines! Since one army cannot fight on more than one frontline, I got immediately rear-ended for free and kicked out, army went straight back home without a fight.

If we had a tile-based army system, my 20k men would've stood on that one tile, I could've told them to hold it, and any attack from any direction would've engaged that unit, instead of going full "frontline empty, auto defeat!". I can accept a defeat in battle, but not game-y trickery screwing me over.

Now, I could've chopped my army in three manually and assigned them to all three frontlines. But that's an insane amount of clicks and micro and hiring new generals and afterwards merging and firing generals and angering IGs etc.

What should've been a straight-forward automated system, becomes way more micro-heavy than even HoI4. What we have now doesn't satisfy any side I think.
 
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After playing a bit in the last days, I ran into the old frustrating issue, which I think is one major reason why I dislike the current system so much.

I was at war with UK and EIC, and one war goal was to liberate the EIC from the UK to deprive them of their crown jewel. They were fighting the French down south, so I landed in Bengal right on top of their capital with my 20k men against their 2k. So far so good.

But upon landing, at the small patch of land that is the EIC's capital, the game gave me three frontlines! Since one army cannot fight on more than one frontline, I got immediately rear-ended for free and kicked out, army went straight back home without a fight.

If we had a tile-based army system, my 20k men would've stood on that one tile, I could've told them to hold it, and any attack from any direction would've engaged that unit, instead of going full "frontline empty, auto defeat!". I can accept a defeat in battle, but not game-y trickery screwing me over.

Now, I could've chopped my army in three manually and assigned them to all three frontlines. But that's an insane amount of clicks and micro and hiring new generals and afterwards merging and firing generals and angering IGs etc.

What should've been a straight-forward automated system, becomes way more micro-heavy than even HoI4. What we have now doesn't satisfy any side I think.
EIC is front nightmare. Honestly dont know why we keep balkanizing regions with each DLC knowing full fact that the frontlines dont work well in that scenario. Pretty much Afghanistan is now more frustrating to deal with.

I wouldn't mind at this point if all the princely states get merged/removed in South Asia till everything is fixed. It will literally improve the gameplay drastically, especially when AI Britain cant keep that region for more than 5 years.
 
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EIC is front nightmare. Honestly dont know why we keep balkanizing regions with each DLC knowing full fact that the frontlines dont work well in that scenario. Pretty much Afghanistan is now more frustrating to deal with.

I wouldn't mind at this point if all the princely states get merged/removed in South Asia till everything is fixed. It will literally improve the gameplay drastically, especially when AI Britain cant keep that region for more than 5 years.
Instead of fiddling around with frontlines, or merging/removing entire nations just to work around the frontline system, I'd rather armies be tile-based. Army on tile = automatic frontlines.

It would also solve issues related to pathing and movement. This is currently a nightmare as well, since armies vacate frontlines and take detours of thousands of km, just to get to the neighbouring tile.

The amount of clicks and micro you get out of it at the moment? That far surpasses anything I've seen in any PDX game, and that includes fighting WW2 in HoI4 or a galactic total war in Stellaris.

Not to mention the impact on performance, even midgame Vic3 wars between just two or three GPs are really slowing down the game.
 
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While the current military system is very far from being optimal, individual movable units is about the last thing I want in Vicky 3. It's a pain in EU4, it was a pain in V2, and to a lesser extent it was still a pain in Imperator, even with the AI.
It's just a horribly outdated system that is best relegated to pages of history.
The more important question is how they should go about unfucking the current military system so that it's actually fun to engage with. The only way is to move forward, rather than to look back.
 
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While the current military system is very far from being optimal, individual movable units is about the last thing I want in Vicky 3.
I'm not talking individual movable, so don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking that armies should occupy a physical place, and frontlines develop naturally from there.

The ideas here are getting borderline insane. Delete entire nations in India, just so that frontlines don't break? If you have to break and bend the simulation, just to accomodate a mechanic, maybe it's the mechanic that should get reevaluated.

We might as well go to more abstraction even, just assign geographical regions as a container, everyone puts their armies into that region, and the game simulates the war and gives you the results. I don't mind having no moving frontlines, if that increases performance and chops unnecessary micro.
 
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What should've been a straight-forward automated system, becomes way more micro-heavy than even HoI4.

:laughs in HOI4 MP:

I've played HOI4 games where its so micro-heavy that you need three players just on the Soviet Union. And they all stay busy for hours on end.

That doesn't mean the broken fronts in Vic3 are okay, but let's not pretend that the micro is anything like HOI4.
 
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