Byzantine feudal families

[lucaluca]

I write here but I hope that this could be an improvement added in the next patches

The bigger number so far of counties and duchies take their surname form the province, for example Raimondo of Livorno, Andronikos of Prusa; but I think that important feudal families could be added in substitution of few of these unreal names.

I was thinking about a few important families of the byzantine empires, some of them could substitute the standard names: some are in in some scenario (Paleologi in 1066, Cantacuzenos in 1337); could be enough to find out the place of origin of these families, then put them in those counties...

This could add flavour to the game; for example, Paleologi are not represented in the 1187 scenario, where the only historical byzantine family is the Angelos, which has been the worse dynasty of the entire byzantine time span; could be nice to be able to place historical better families (Lascaris, Comnenus, Ducas in late scenarios), and try to fight against the evil Angelos.


about modifications, my question is: how to change names to dynasties?

 

[Demetrios]

Actually, the locations of the power bases, as well as names and relationships of potential characters, of the great Byzantine families in all three scenarios would be very helpful indeed, as would relative power (if they should be assigned one or more duchies instead of just a county or two). If a family has not yet risen to prominence yet (such as the Laskaris in 1066), finding out where the family originated would be useful, so they could possibly still be assigned a county in that scenario...

 

[lucaluca]

Actually, the locations of the power bases, as well as names and relationships of potential characters, of the great Byzantine families in all three scenarios would be very helpful indeed, as would relative power (if they should be assigned one or more duchies instead of just a county or two). If a family has not yet risen to prominence yet (such as the Laskaris in 1066), finding out where the family originated would be useful, so they could possibly still be assigned a county in that scenario...

I can try to find some information, but I don't think that internet there are so much.However a first link is interisting:
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/byzantin.htm
It lists all the families of medieval Byzantium, and foe everyone it describes the CoA...so if we find a place for the family, maybe the CoA could be added?

About CoA of Constantinople (or Byzantion as it's called in the game), I read many times that the original flag of the city was what is actually the flag of Turkey, or something similar: the original simbol was an half moon, and Costantine (or some ather emperor) added the star which symbolize venus or Diana for pagans and the Vergin mary for Christians. When the Ottomans conquered the city, they used that flag as the flag of the empire; here the proof, only one link but I found severals (italian also):
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/tr.html
here a quote:
Many traditions explain the star and crescent symbol. It is known that Diana was the patron goddess of Byzantium and that her symbol was a moon. In 330, the Emperor Constantine rededicated the city - which he called Constantinople - to the Virgin Mary, whose star symbol was superimposed over the crescent. In 1453 Constantinople was captured by the Ottoman Turks and renamed Istanbul, but its new rulers may have adopted the existing emblem for their own use"


Another link:
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/byzantine/family_names.html

It's easy to find lists, but nothing about place of origin...maybe a random distribution?

another link with complete genealogy (only for regal families):
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/byzant/byzanti.html
From here it seems:
Makedonian: Adrianoupolis
Komnenos
1066 Isaakios Komnenos: Duke of Antioch
till 1176: Ioannes Komnenos Duke of Cyprus
1184-1191 Isaakios Dukas Komnenos: Emperor of Cyprus (???)
Angelos: Philadelphia, Thessalonike?, Neiapatrai (1337)
Batatzes:
1193: Basileios Duke of Thrace
Palaiologos:
origin: Thessalonike (Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos)

Another link (links are only for emperors )
http://www.american-pictures.com/genealogy/persons/index-emperors.htm

 

[Demetrios]

Heh, yes, Issakaios Komnenos was indeed Emperor of Cyprus - he had rebelled against the Angeloi and claimed the imperial title.

I already had checked the site you quoted and had made note of the various dynastic connections mentioned there. If we can't find further information, it may be that we will have to resort to some sort of random distribution...

 

[Solmyr]

Of course, the most accurate way of doing it would be to give the Emperor his full allotment of provinces as his stewardship plus various bonuses allow, set up several princes as his vassals in the rest, and throw away most of the counts (the AI will create some soon enough, anyway).

It seems to me that half the counts of the map were placed there mostly as filler anyway, to let people play all sorts of little guys, and don't seem to have any historical accuracy to them.

 

[lucaluca]

Another link, another information:
http://www1.fhw.gr/chronos/10/en/k/ka/ka2a.html

Kantakouzenos: origin from Smirne (end of 1100), in the end of 1300 they have lands around the city of Serres and in Thessalia and Costantinople.

Metochites (thanks to them we have the Chora church In Istanbul ):
origin from Constantinople?, exiliated in Anatolia (1300?)

I got an information on a book about Byzantine aristocracy, I'm going to try to find it.
"The byzantine aristocracy", authors: Khazdan, Ronchey.

 

[gweinel]

Really very interesting links!
Great work!
Where did you find this book?
I might be interested!

 

[Demetrios]

Another link, another information:
http://www1.fhw.gr/chronos/10/en/k/ka/ka2a.html

Kantakouzenos: origin from Smirne (end of 1100)

Is that Smyrna for the rest of us?

 

[gweinel]

Is that Smyrna for the rest of us?

Yup, that's Smyrna

 

[lucaluca]

The town was Smyrna, yes (Smirne is italian ).

The book's complete title is (transleted roughly from italian):
"The byzantine aristocracy from the beginning of XI century to the end of XII"
But I really don't know either the book is only available in italy or not, since Ronchey is an italian girl which worked with Kazhdan , which suold be an important professor at Dumber Oak (or something similar) univesrity in USA.
I ordered it today (20 euros, quite expensive :wacko: ).

Another good book should be:
STURDZA, Mihail-Dimitri (1983) Grandes famille de Grèce, d'Albanie et de Constantinople. Paris : M.D. Sturdkza, 657 p.

But is in french, so not for me (even if written french should be easy to read for an italian).

 

[richvh]

The town was Smyrna, yes (Smirne is italian ).

The book's complete title is (transleted roughly from italian):
"The byzantine aristocracy from the beginning of XI century to the end of XII"
But I really don't know either the book is only available in italy or not, since Ronchey is an italian girl which worked with Kazhdan , which suold be an important professor at Dumber Oak (or something similar) univesrity in USA.
I ordered it today (20 euros, quite expensive :wacko: ).

Another good book should be:
STURDZA, Mihail-Dimitri (1983) Grandes famille de Grèce, d'Albanie et de Constantinople. Paris : M.D. Sturdkza, 657 p.

But is in french, so not for me (even if written french should be easy to read for an italian).

Amazon lists a book titled The Byzantine aristocracy, IX to XIII centuries, out of print unfortunately (published 1984).

 

[gweinel]

The town was Smyrna, yes (Smirne is italian ).

The book's complete title is (transleted roughly from italian):
"The byzantine aristocracy from the beginning of XI century to the end of XII"
But I really don't know either the book is only available in italy or not, since Ronchey is an italian girl which worked with Kazhdan , which suold be an important professor at Dumber Oak (or something similar) univesrity in USA.
I ordered it today (20 euros, quite expensive :wacko: ).

Another good book should be:
STURDZA, Mihail-Dimitri (1983) Grandes famille de Grèce, d'Albanie et de Constantinople. Paris : M.D. Sturdkza, 657 p.

But is in french, so not for me (even if written french should be easy to read for an italian).

Thank you very much for information.
I ll search it in my university library and I hope I could find it! From where did you order it? THere isn't in Amazon? Finally is it in English or Italian?

Thanks!

 

[lucaluca]

Thank you very much for information.
I ll search it in my university library and I hope I could find it! From where did you order it? THere isn't in Amazon? Finally is it in English or Italian?

Thanks!

I ordered in a big bookshop here in Florence, but later I found that was available in the huge National Library (just close to Arno river )...ok however, it's my first historical book about Byzantium; of course I ordered in italian. But if you live in Greece, you should have plenty of books about byzantine history

 

[gweinel]

I ordered in a big bookshop here in Florence, but later I found that was available in the huge National Library (just close to Arno river )...ok however, it's my first historical book about Byzantium; of course I ordered in italian. But if you live in Greece, you should have plenty of books about byzantine history

Oh, yes there plenty books in greek, but I some titles and subjects are rare...
For an example I am still searching about the ruler (dukes) of Thessaloniki at 1066.

In my research however I found something in topic.
- The Botaneiatis (or Botaniatis) family have roots from Capadocia. (Nicephorus Botaneiatis was the emperor 1078 -1081)
- Comnenus family have origin from Thrace (from a village with a similar name)
- Melissinos (or Melissenus) family have origin form Ephesus. (Nicephorus Mellissinos was usurper of the throne at 1080 and at 1081 was duke of Thessalonike until 1104)

 

[Demetrios]

By 1066 though, the Komnenos family was very much established in Paphlagonia...

 

[gweinel]

By 1066 though, the Komnenos family was very much established in Paphlagonia...

Yes, its true, I only stated the origin of the family. Komnenos was a great family probably its members were at many parts of the Empire. Today I shuffled a 2 tomes book(I think it was more than 1500 pages) about the Komnenos family, with biography of all its members. It was the source of my previous informations.
If you want I can search the members of the family at 1066...
The book is "Dynasty of Komnenoi" by Karagianopoulos I. E. (he is one of the most famous professors at byzantine history in Greece)