Byzantium Mod Plans

[SirRobin]

Introduction

Ever since finding "Byzantium," part of the Time Life Great Ages of Man series, in a small midwestern town library back in the late seventies, or maybe it was the early eighties, I have been a fan of the byz. Yes I know it would be more accurate to call them roman or rhomaion, but I still know and love them as the byz.

I've really enjoyed playing them in Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, Victoria, and even modded in to Hearts of Iron. But what about for HoI4? What follows are my plans but let's get two questions out of the way first.​

Why Byzantium?

I find Byzantium fascinating and mod worthy because it is unique. A christian empire with both a roman and greek lineage. A city reaching a million souls guarded by walls whose remains are still impressive today. A bridge between the east and west. A golden horn. Vikings guards. Cataphracts. Flamethrowers! And so much more.
​

Fantasy?

You may not realize it but Byzantium came close to being reborn in the 1920's. If Greece had been a little more successful during their war with proto-Turkey Constantine I could very well have fulfilled the prophecy of the Marble King. Instead of ending the Megali Idea.

Many greeks still thought of themselves as roman well into the 20th century, as shown by songs like Romios Agapise Romia. Romios, not Hellenos. Just as the first prince of modern greece's royal family born in Greece was christened Constantine. Constantine, not Plato or Achilles or even Alexander.​

Files

I suspect the structure will be similar to previous games so here is my thinking what folders will need to be added to.

Common>Countries
Focus
Events
GFX>Flags
GFX>Pictures>Events
GFX>Pictures>Portraits
History>Countries
History>Leaders
History>Provinces
History>Units
History>Wars​

Most of it can be copied from the Greek files but naturally cores and units will need to be changed. Not sure on company names and icons for bonuses though. May have to create some from scratch.​

Questions

First, does Byzantium exist in 1936?

1. No
   Does not exist at the beginning of the game but can be created after retaking Constantinople. Probably need to be playing a nation with strong connections to Byzantium like Greece. Maybe also Bulgaria? Yugoslavia?
2. Yes
   Byzantium already exists at the beginning of the game. Probably replacing Greece on the map.

#1 raises the question of whether HoI4's fourteen (?) years is enough for reforming Byzantium and expanding it.

Second, how much territory should Byzantium/Greece have in 1936?

1. Default
   Same territory as Greece in 1936.
   
   
   
2. Sevres
   Managed to keep territory awarded in Treaty of Sevres. Basically a bit of Albania, half of Thrace, and the region around Smyrna. Does not control Constantinople.
   
   
   
3. Dorylaion
   Managed a decisive victory at the Battle of Dorylaion. Has all of Thrace and a significant chunk of western Anatolia. Has Constantinople.
   
   
   
4. Medieval
   Byz never fell and still holds a largish chunk of the Balkans and Anatolia.
   
   
   

#4 looks the most boring to me. The final fall of Constantinople and the Turk's advance into Europe had such a major impact that it seems downright insulting to just wipe it away.

#1 seems almost as bad because, again, you've only got 14 (?) years to play with.

#2 looks okay because it gives a good reason for Greece to still exist and puts them in a better position to take Constantinople and reform Byzantium. A good choice if we have Byzatium's recreation be an event chain triggered by retaking Constantinople.

#3 is the best choice in my opinion if we have Byzantium existing at the beginning of the game. Less of an "already a juggernaut" feeling from #4, but still in a decent position to become one.

Considering the above my goal is a Yes-Dorylaion first with a more challenging No-Sevres later.​

Story

So, what is the deal? This mod's "what if" occurs during the 1919-1922 war between Greece and Turkey. Both No-Sevres and Yes-Dorylaion hinge on the Greeks having a more decisive victory at the Battle of Dorylaion in July of 1921. Here, afterwards, the Greeks choose not to advance on Ankara and either go on the defensive or take more of the eastern Aegean coastline and Thrace.

A weaker Turkey is unable to force the Greeks out and the Treaty of Lausanne formally re-ends the war between the Ottoman Empire and western powers as well as defines the new borders of Byzantium/Greece and Turkey.

During the war the new Turkey reached agreements with the Italians and the French. The Greeks considered this a betrayal of promises made in exchange for joining the Allies during World War I. Once discovered it was widely circulated in the Greek press and caused a backlash not only against the French and Italians, but the "west" in general.

The label "Hellenes," resurrected by Greek nationalists seeking western support in the 19th century, regained its pagan associations and Rhomaion returned as the way Greeks officially referred to themselves.

In Yes-Dorylaion Constantine I is crowned Emperor of the Rhomaion in 1923, the rebirth of the Basileia Rhomaion is declared, and Istanbul is rechristened Constantinople. By 1936 his son George II has been Emperor for a decade.

As HoI4 begins the peace between Byzantium, as the "west" prefers to call it, and Turkey is tenuous at best. Neither governments are satisfied with the Treaty of Lausanne. The expulsion of hundreds of thousands from their homes has left large refugee populations on both sides which lobby to "liberate" their ancestral homelands.

Both nations have also spent thirteen years building up their military and industry in anticipation of renewed hostilities. To finally resolve what the treaty did not. Rumors of a secret Italian-Turkish alliance swirl through Byzantium, raising tensions even further.

How long can the peace last?
​

Flags

So what should this Byzantium's flags look like? Well I have some ideas and they are subject to change but here is what I see and why I see them.

Neutral

The flag we've seen in many previous games. The starting flag for "filthy neutrals."

Democratic

What to do about the free elections flag. I want to use the double headed eagle we see on Mount Athos's flag but I don't like how its heads are pointed down nor its sprawled legs. So I do some tweaking to give it a bit more aggressive look for the heads and point the legs downward. I also stretch the wings a bit. The crown I snip from the Kingdom of Greece flag.

Now what about the colors. Having seen red and yellow for the byz in so many previous games I'm rather bored with it. And red and yellow is just about required for the communists so lets try something a bit different. Recalling the whole "born in the purple" bit I'll replace red with it. I'll also drop the tetragrammatic cross and keep it a plain cross instead.

Now I tried tyrian purple but just didn't like the look of it. It looks almost brown to me. So I'll use purple instead. I'll also stick with the amber instead of gold since I didn't like how bright it looked. Finally I drop the B's to simplify it a little.

Fascist

Went through quite a few changes but this is the most popular one by far so here it is. In addition to using the double eagle from the first flag, we add a double fasces too. The fasces is similar to the italian fascists and helps highlight the rivalry between them.

Communist

Really wasn't sure what to do with the communist flag but then Peekee came up with a brilliant design and ThatStrategyGuy suggested spinning it 90 degrees. The result is a perfect fit. I thought about replacing the eagle with the one on the other two flags but figure this helps it stand out even more.

​

Sprites

Since I lack the skills to create a new set of spirtes I plan to just use the "generic" set. If the generic set lacks the models required I may copy over a major's sprite set. The UK's perhaps?​

Companies

Got really lucky and found a book which gives a glimpse at older Greek companies. I'll still have to make up logos but at least I have a place to start now. I suspect we'll have at least seven "slots" which can be filled.

1. Infantry
   • Pyrkal
   • Chropei
2. Armor
   • Glavanis & Kazazis
   • Pyrkal
3. Support/Artillery
   • Danglis
   • Kyrgias
4. Naval
   • Basileiadas
   • Neorion
5. Aerial
   • AEKKEA
   • EAF
6. Industry
   • Kontoyiannis
   • BIO
7. Technology
   • Artemis
   • Santorinis

Here are the names in Greekish looking font's but I still need logos for them.

Focus Tree

So what should the focus trees be? I see four primary trees.

1. Politics
2. Army
3. Navy
4. Air Force

With a possible fifth being the war with Turkey. The politics one will revolve around restoring the empire's former territories.

1. Reclaiming Trebizond
2. March to Antioch
3. Bulgarian Belligerence
4. Annexing Albania
5. Fall of Yugoslavia
6. Befriend Romania
7. Liberate Armenia
8. Liberate Georgia
9. Holy Land

The Army, Navy, and Air Force trees revolve around modernizing and expanding.​

Setup

With both a No-Sevres and Yes-Dorylaion I'll buff Byzantium/Greece and Turkey's industry and military a bit. Not so much that they run off to conquer Europe but enough to fight a serious war against each other. In fact I may look at an event chain which would let a victorious Turkey proclaim a new Ottoman Empire.

As "minors" I don't know how much detail they are going to get in HoI4. At least at launch. Will they have some shared generic tech tree? Will they even be able to research certain equipment like tanks? If not I can probably copy a major's tech tree but these are questions we may have to wait a while to get answers too.​

 

[Lukevan16]

Interesting idea, but sometimes I feel like the paradox community's love for Byzantium goes a bit too far.

 

[Kriegersson]

Some interesting alt-history possibilities here. Of course I don't see Byzantium making a return as historically plausible. All the same, I think a mod about the byz would be best off using the national focus mechanic. Not sure how nat focus works beyond what they showed in the DD, but a focus tree to represent ultra-nationalist Greeks aligning with other fascists to (re)claim the east Med sounds good to me. Something along these lines (caveat emptor: I haven't studied Greek history):
-> Start as Greece
-> Align towards fascism and promote nationalist sentiments (the latter shouldn't be that hard)
-> War with the Turks (I see this going poorly without Italian, German or other assistance)
-> Maybe support the Italians and Germans when they invade Yugoslavia
-> Hold down the Balkans and hope that you can be friends with Italy and Germany (not sure if Italy would ever accept a rival to their Med power, but you certainly wouldn't have a chance without Italian/German support)

As for government types, communist Byzantium makes no sense - even though communists are nationalists, Byzantium is too overtly imperial to ever be communist or for communists to ever support that branding of Greece. Communist Greece that expands, sure, but not communist Byzantium. I think you'd pretty much have to be fascist.

Of course, this all assumes you want a vaguely plausible path from Greece to Byzantium within the mechanics of the game. Otherwise, sure, just replace Greece with Byzantium from the start date.

 

[henzington]

Why not one where the Roman Empire is restored in its full glory? /joke

 

[Lukevan16]

Why not one where the Roman Empire is restored in its full glory? /joke

#marenostrum?

 

[henzington]

Done it in EU4 and CK2 but 1936 is about 483 years too late for the ERE.

 

[Raventhefuhrer]

Definitely advocate the 3. Start, because without retainin Constantinople it's difficult to see how the Byzantines could survive.

I'd also recommend making their fascist flag have a fasces bundle (appropriate!) rather than what appears to be a generic battle axe.

 

[SirRobin]

Interesting idea, but sometimes I feel like the paradox community's love for Byzantium goes a bit too far.

The slightly unhinged aspect is part of the fun. Looking forward to the Byz mods for Stellaris.

Some interesting alt-history possibilities here. Of course I don't see Byzantium making a return as historically plausible. All the same, I think a mod about the byz would be best off using the national focus mechanic. Not sure how nat focus works beyond what they showed in the DD, but a focus tree to represent ultra-nationalist Greeks aligning with other fascists to (re)claim the east Med sounds good to me. Something along these lines (caveat emptor: I haven't studied Greek history):
-> Start as Greece
-> Align towards fascism and promote nationalist sentiments (the latter shouldn't be that hard)
-> War with the Turks (I see this going poorly without Italian, German or other assistance)
-> Maybe support the Italians and Germans when they invade Yugoslavia
-> Hold down the Balkans and hope that you can be friends with Italy and Germany (not sure if Italy would ever accept a rival to their Med power, but you certainly wouldn't have a chance without Italian/German support)

As for government types, communist Byzantium makes no sense - even though communists are nationalists, Byzantium is too overtly imperial to ever be communist or for communists to ever support that branding of Greece. Communist Greece that expands, sure, but not communist Byzantium. I think you'd pretty much have to be fascist.

Of course, this all assumes you want a vaguely plausible path from Greece to Byzantium within the mechanics of the game. Otherwise, sure, just replace Greece with Byzantium from the start date.

I don't think anyone considers the byz a plausible 1930's state. This is merely a byzfan's attempt to prepare a byz mod for HoI4.

National focus could be a good work in for the No-Sevres version.

Communist does seem even more far fetched but since each nation has four flags then byz will need one too.

It will be easier modding wise to just replace Greece right from the start with the Yes-Dorylaion version. The No-Sevres version will rely more on event chains.

Why not one where the Roman Empire is restored in its full glory? /joke

#marenostrum?

Done it in EU4 and CK2 but 1936 is about 483 years too late for the ERE.

I'm sure we'll be getting Rome mods too but I've always been more of a fan of its later days instead of earlier.

Definitely advocate the 3. Start, because without retainin Constantinople it's difficult to see how the Byzantines could survive.

I'd also recommend making their fascist flag have a fasces bundle (appropriate!) rather than what appears to be a generic battle axe.

Yeah, the No-Sevres version will be a much tougher challenge with its weaker starting position. May end up splicing it all into a No-Default too but that would be a really tough one.

The flags will be changing. Would still like the democratic to be purple and gold but need to go with something more dramatic for the fascist. Maybe an inverted St. George with double eagle and fasces? Maybe a counter flag to the Italian fascist one?

 

[Dadoz]

Vote for option 3.

 

[DmUa]

As for government types, communist Byzantium makes no sense - even though communists are nationalists, Byzantium is too overtly imperial to ever be communist or for communists to ever support that branding of Greece. Communist Greece that expands, sure, but not communist Byzantium. I think you'd pretty much have to be fascist.

- dont be ridiculus communists are not nationalists.

 

[Swinds]

Would it not be a good idea to take the whole game back to Roman times with Roman units etc. Just have the map zoomed in to Europe. Big change I know but the engine would make a great basis for a Roman conquest game.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Good lord! Good luck!

Though . . . maybe imaginative Italian or Romanian despots might trigger chains of events that restore the East Roman Empire in collaboration with the Greeks. . . .

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

- dont be ridiculus communists are not nationalists.

Exactly.

Communists are internationalists.



PS lol at thread topic. Was not expecting Hitler to visit the Hagia Sophia soon!

 

[SirRobin]

Would it not be a good idea to take the whole game back to Roman times with Roman units etc. Just have the map zoomed in to Europe. Big change I know but the engine would make a great basis for a Roman conquest game.

For the big alternaty mod I'll probably take a swing at Stirling's Domination of the Draka. I don't see HoI4 fitting early Rome very well and a Draka mod lets me keep the 30's and 40's time frame. Not good with sprites though so I may be begging for help for that part of it.

 

[frolix42]

Be sure to add a single Hellenic Pagan on the Mani Peninsula.

 

[Gamer_1745]

'Decisions' are gone from HOI IV and have been replaced with 'National Focus'.

For a mod like this you will need models for infantry. Greek uniforms from the 1936-45 period or something else? Greece didn't & still doesn't build tanks & aircraft. If Byz going to build them then what models? You might call the tanks Cataphracts whatever design they are.

 

[SirRobin]

'Decisions' are gone from HOI IV and have been replaced with 'National Focus'.

For a mod like this you will need models for infantry. Greek uniforms from the 1936-45 period or something else? Greece didn't & still doesn't build tanks & aircraft. If Byz going to build them then what models? You might call the tanks Cataphracts whatever design they are.

Oops, missed that. So "focus" instead of "decisions."

I suspect that "minors" won't have their own sprites at launch and will use a "generic" set. So, at first, I plan to just use those. Depending on how the game develops from there will determine which way the byz sprites go. If the generic set does not have the needed equipment models I'll copy one of the majors' vanilla sprite sets. Maybe the brits.

Making new sprites is beyond my skill level currently.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

We all have a little Byzantium inside us. But yeah I totally vote for #3.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

I think that a lot of the interest for this mod will come from people converting their EU4 Byzantine Empire save. So maybe put extra focus into dynamic ideas for that!

 

[gnome109]

Blurple, it was inevitable!