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Unfortunately the AI is not smart enough to determine the best policy regarding its warships.

I am just wondering what the fuel consumption rate is representing. Is it representing a fleet sailing at combat speed, at regular cruising speed, etc? The AI acts like oil is neverending, in fact, it acts like all resources are neverending.

Oil shortages result in other shortages, which cripples national economies. Once one resource gets to zero, soon most others get to zero. Japan and Italy did have oil problems, but they never did have resource problems large enough to cause a shutdown of their industry (both Italy and Japan produced more in their last year of war than they did during any other year).

Also, most of these nations get oil shortages before the war begins, since they sail their fleets beyond the ability to replenish their oil.

What we might want to do, for these problem nations, is to determine the max usage of oil by these nations (i.e., if the entire IJN is at sea 24/7 how much oil is used per day), and find ways to make sure that this will not cripple them in pre-war circumstances.

I found it VERY easy to manage my economy, through rational usage of my air force and navy. However, the AI is not that capable.

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One way is possibly to limit the AI peacetime Admiral. The fewer bases allocated to Admirals in the AI means that fewer TF's need to be created to cover them. This will probably mean revising and creating peacetime AI's for all nations with major navies.

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Onother way to help mitigate this is to improve the ability for these nations to gain oil. I am aware that Italy gained about 500 oil poins (50 000 tons) of oil from Romania each month historically, but so far this is not included in the game. Possibly US oil shipments to Japan before the embargos is too low.

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Another thing that I did with the Italian scenario is to remove the Motorized formations in 1936 in my revision of their OOB (since Italy did not have any). The 13 motorized divisions in their OOB ate up 13 oil points per day.

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Before we go changing fuel oil consumption, we should do something to lessen the effects of oil shortages in nations with navies and fix the problems that exist because of the current system, otherwize Italy and Japan (plus other nations) will face oil shortages in 1937, not 1942-43.
 
peacetime Admiral AI's

Good points, McN. It seems like perhaps the simplest fix is to create peacetime Admiral AI's for all countries (easy for me to say). I think that would reflect the "stand-down" mentality of peacetime, as well as (partially) mitigate oil consumption by the AI.

If I may be so bold, I think that if we look at oil consumption rates and oil points and then try to create a 1-1 reflection of reality, we're approaching the problem wrong. HOI is an abstract strategic simulation (as you know) not a tactical one. So we have to approach our consumption rates abstractly. The real question is : "How much oil would be consumed by fully functional naval administrations (including repair, training, R&D, etc.) as opposed to peacetime administrations (i.e., non-moving navies, in HOI terms).

Follow me? (Of course you do)

:D
 
Fuel Rates

Well, I could bore you with the details, but if you really want them go here. The gist of all of that is...

Mathguy and some others calculated what the value of one unit of oil is and compared that to steaming ranges for different classes of warship. They have tested these numbers and they appear to work correctly. We already have a lot of units that have double or triple the use of Vanilla HoI, and that appears to be working now. This wouldn't be as big a change for CORE as it would (will?) be for Vanilla becuase of that already built in to our system. The major change will be for destroyer squadrons which will cause a larger drain on smaller nations than before. This is something that wouldn't be in place before 0.7, so we will have the chance to see what effect some of the other changes have before deciding if this necessary. MDow
 
Another Option

Well, seeing as we can add supplies via events couldn't we have the start game events for picking the CORE dificulty level trigger AI only events for all the concerned majors to give them a boost? Not to big of one but enough to say move their navys around for the numbers of years that they were at peace. This would at least band aid the AI draining the resources too soon.
 
Re: Another Option

Originally posted by Baenwort
Well, seeing as we can add supplies via events couldn't we have the start game events for picking the CORE dificulty level trigger AI only events for all the concerned majors to give them a boost? Not to big of one but enough to say move their navys around for the numbers of years that they were at peace. This would at least band aid the AI draining the resources too soon.

The idea that we are aiming for is to not break the system. Right now the system is working as designed. There have been some fixes to help the more troubled economies in game. If it comes to fixing it because it is broken, then we might have to consider events as fixes, but I would prefer fixing the AI as an alternative. MDow
 
Re: Fuel Rates

Originally posted by MateDow
Well, I could bore you with the details, but if you really want them go here. The gist of all of that is...

Mathguy and some others calculated what the value of one unit of oil is and compared that to steaming ranges for different classes of warship. They have tested these numbers and they appear to work correctly. We already have a lot of units that have double or triple the use of Vanilla HoI, and that appears to be working now. This wouldn't be as big a change for CORE as it would (will?) be for Vanilla becuase of that already built in to our system. The major change will be for destroyer squadrons which will cause a larger drain on smaller nations than before. This is something that wouldn't be in place before 0.7, so we will have the chance to see what effect some of the other changes have before deciding if this necessary. MDow

I understand about the details, but am concerned that the AI does not necessarily work in reality. IF we could find a way to get the AI to tame down their patroling during peacetime, and have wartime targets fairly limited to within historic regions, then I can throw my full support into this increase. I am sure that this works 100% for human management, but an also sure that the AI does not actually care about reserves of resources, and only really cares about input and output. It will run at maximum whenever it can.

We could add AI events, but this may be seen as AI cheating, which we are trying to avoid, which in my opinion is impossible if we want a challenging and historic game. It will also be difficult to determine which nation deserves what resource.

I think the best solution is to create a more wide reaching system of resource trading between allied nations. As it is now, only a few countries get resource bonus', and these tend not to have many economic problems anyway.

I still say it would be better to fix the resource system before we add any extra pressures on it. The game will not suffer because ships don't use as much oil as they should, in fact, gameplay would probably be enhanced since your friends and foes alike will keep on fighting instead of clam up.
 
Oil Fuel example

Using this as an example of what we should see the HoI AI doing...

This is a LONG exerpt and a short retelling of the Italian economic situation before and during WW2, primarily dealing with naval use of oil.

http://www.regiamarina.net/

As you will see, Italy DID face oil shortages, but remained as a fairly potent force. It conserved when it had to (by decomissioning fuel hog old battleships), and used fuel only for critical operations (like keeping the convoy system open). Italy (and Japan for that matter) saved up enough fuel before the war for full fledged fleet operations for about 1.5 years. The HoI AI does none of the above. Italy recieved emergency shipments from both Germany and Romania to remain afloat (pardon the pun)

----------------------

The Oil Fuel Issue
By Andrea Piccinotti
Introduction

Introduction

Each year Italy, a country of limited natural resources, is forced to import tons of fuel of various grades from multiple sources. This dependency on imports is particularly aggravated during war times when the larger part of these imports ceases. During World War I, when Italy was allied with the "Lords of the Sea" and with the countries controlling most of the world’s natural resources, this problem did not exist. Instead, the Central Empires were tormented by this problem, and being unable to procure what was necessary to keep the war machine running, forced to surrender. When Mussolini declared the "Autarchia" (national self sufficiency), complete self-reliance of the whole Italian industrial complex, one could not but notice the paradox of such a proclamation. Italy, even if she had had the necessary industries to sustain her (a far-fetched assumption considering the backward state of the whole apparatus), would have been unable to obtain the necessary energy to keep it running.

In the 20s and 30s, Italy imported an average of 12 million tons of good quality coal necessary for industrial production, the generation of electricity, locomotion, and winter heating. When Great Britain decided that an Italian intervention along with Germany was preferable to a pro-German neutrality, Italy was informed on January 14th 1940 of an imminent naval blockade of all coal import from Germany ( at that time coming through the then neutral Netherlands). On February 3rd, London informed Rome of the necessary prerequisites for the reinstitution of shipments of the indispensable coal, which, under the plan, would have been shipped from England. Italy was asked to provide London with a large quantity of war materiel. Following the mediation attempts conducted by the Italian Foreign Minister, Count Ciano, Great Britain materialized her threats and on March 1st, when units of the Royal Navy interdicted and captured 13 Italian coal ships taking them to internment and confiscating their cargoes.

On the 10th of the same month, when Italian reserves of coal had already decreased to less than one month, the Germans informed that they were ready to commence transferring coal through the Alpine passes at a rate of about 1 million tons per month. This remedy, which the British thought impossible, was the result of collaboration between the "Reichsbahn" and the "Ferrovie dello Stato" and lasted until late summer 1944. Considering that from June 1940 through September 1943 the Regia Marina had to face an ever increasing crisis with the supplies of oil fuel, which at one point paralyzed the fleet leaving the control of the Mediterranean in the hands of the enemy, how did the Italian war ships fill up to reach Malta, where they surrendered?

After several studies, some well-known historians pointed out several discrepancies between the fuel status reports the Regia Marina was sending to the Germans and the quantity reported by the historical bureau of the Italian Navy. The most evident of these discrepancies was noted in the meeting of Merano, in February 1941, where the head of the Navy, Admiral Riccardi, stated that the Navy had only 610,000 tons left when in fact, reserves amounted to over 1 million tons. One can easily assume that the Navy had created a sort of black fund of oil fuel to be used as a last resource with the double scope of obtaining more of the now available German fuel and, in relative security, to coordinate naval operations.

1940

The Regia Marina, expecting the imminent conflict against Great Britain, had planned in the years preceding the war and had been able to accumulate hefty quantities of oil fuel for her boilers to about 2 million tons. This quantity was thought sufficient for about one and one half years of war without any limitations. The Navy was the only armed force, which was able to accumulate a large quantity of fuel, and in the first week of June the Minister of Corporations withdrew 250,000 tons for the operation of industries and also for the Regia Aeronautica. The Regia Aeronautica had used tanks built of tin, instead of iron, which had caused the gasoline to spoil, so the Navy had to transfer 50,000 tons of gasoline.

Italy entered the war not only with the most complete lack of readiness of her armed forces, but also without much fuel. It was thought that the war would not have last long and that the little fuel reserve would be sufficient. As a matter of fact, until January 1941, there were no limitations on the use of oil fuel, but during this month 671,560 tons had already been burned. Supermarina was forced to reduce training. Up to that moment, no large shipment of oil fuel had been acquired to replace the spent one. The 50,000 tons coming from Rumania were all destined to the Regio Esercito and civilian use, while the Regia Aeronautica benefited from 200,000 tons of very poor quality oil coming from the Albanian oil wells. The Regia Marina even attempted to increase domestic production obtaining annually 10,000 tons of low-grade fuel. The first replenishment was only 15,000 tons and it arrived from Rumania as part of an extraordinary shipment.

1941

To worsen this situation came the attempted coup d’ètat in Rumania, which tried to replace the pro German government. Despite Rome’s denial, it was common opinion that the Italian government had supported this action and therefore all shipments of fuel were immediately ceased. For the Regia Marina this situation meant that in addition to losing any hope of replainge the oil fuel burned, 250,000 tons had to be transferred to the Ministry of Corporations which declared it "intangible" while an additional 34,000 tons had to be transferred to the national industry. During 1941, Italy was only able to import 600,000 tons of fuel and of this 163,000 tons were "donated" to the Navy. At this point the situation became really dramatic and the monthly consumption had to be reduced to 60,000 tons. The total amount of oil fuel available at the end of the year was about 200,000 tons and during this period of crisis it was decided to remove from service the older battleships. To worsen this already negative situation, after the November British attack in Egypt, the high command and Mussolini requested that the fleet defend the Libya-bound convoys. This strain, which eventually paid off, was only possible thanks to the special shipment of 80,000 tons of German oil fuel, which was delivered at the end of the year.

1942

On January 10th, 1942 Admiral Riccardi informed the Germans that the Navy’s supplies of fuel had gone down to 90,000 tons. Admiral De Courten, in his memoirs, affirms that in that month the actual reserves were 200,000 tons. This discrepancy can be explained by the 130,000 tons of "intangible" fuel assigned to the corporation. During these months, the bottom was finally reached with reserves down to 14,000 tons. The situation was further deteriorated by the shipment of 9,000 tons of German oil fuel of quality too low to be of any use.

Fortunately, at the end of April, it was possible to start importing 50,000 tons of oil fuel per month from Rumania. Suspending the escort and mining missions conducted by the cruisers further reduced consumption. These precautions and new shipments allowed for the deployment of the whole fleet in the double operation (east and west) during the battle of mid-June. Despite the new shipment, the situation kept deteriorating because, up to the armistice, the Regia Marina transferred 40,000 tons to other units and only two shipments of German fuel (10,000 tons in July and 23,000 in September) were received. These shipments allowed for the deployment (then cancelled), of some cruisers during the battle of mid-August and the replenishment of the bunkers aboard the two naval squadrons. At the end of November, the oil fuel reserve was about 70,000 tons plus all which was stored aboard the ships; enough for one sortie of the whole fleet. At the end of December, the old battleships Cesare, Duilio and Doria were removed from service, thus allowing for their crews to be redeployed to new escort units which were just entering service.

1943

The allied landing in North Africa and the subsequent doubling in consumption was the new event which, once again, placed the Regia Marina in a state of crisis. In fact, now instead of just refurnishing Libya, the Navy had to supply Tunisia. These new missions were made possible by the shipment of 40,000 tons of excellent German oil fuel. In January 1943, the crisis reached its climax and the three modern battleships had to be removed from service thus eliminating the Italian battle force. The only naval division still operating was the 3rd, based in La Maddalena (Sardinia). The crisis worsened with only 3,000 tons received in February 1943 and in March and April the modern destroyers had to be removed from escort missions. Meanwhile, on the 10th of April, the only major naval force, the 3rd Division, was annihilated when the Trieste was sunk and the Gorizia seriously damaged by an allied air bombardment. Expecting a possible Allied invasion, the remaining destroyers were reactivated along with the battleships which had half their bunkers filled with diesel fuel used by submarines.

In the month of April, the 9th and 7th Divisions were active and the destroyers were used in escort missions. It must be noted that, at this point, there was no reserve of oil fuel left; so, how did the Regia Marina reach Malta? To find the answer, we have to step back. When the Germans unexpectedly occupied the French base of Toulon on November 27, 1942, where most of the French fleet still afloat was kept, they were able to capture 80,000 tons of oil fuel. Having realized that the Regia Marina could not launch any offensive mission, the Germans transferred "on loan" 60,000 tons of "special" oil fuel thus allowing for the three battleships to be reactivated, along with the cruisers of the 7th and 8th Division, the light cruisers based in Taranto, and, at the end of June, the two battleships Doria and Duilio, while the Cesare was in Trieste being rebuilt. This oil fuel allowed for several training missions, event which had not happened in a long time. The final mission was not even compromised by the total cessation of German supplies following Mussolini’s fall. In fact when Italy surrendered on September 8th, the Fleet had enough fuel to reach and surrender in Malta.
 
According to that website, Italy should recieve...

6000 Oil points a year from Romania (or 500 per month if 1 HoI oil = 100 tons).

Plus events that whenever they got short of fuel (critically short), Germany would always find enough somewhere to give to them to keep large parts of the fleet in operation (if they were part of the Axis). But still, Italy had a 1 000 000 t surplus reserve of oil in 1940 (equates to 10 000). Italy starts the game with 10 000 oil points, but always loses it all before 1939.
 
McNaughthon, did you check if the Italian fleet (AI) spends more time in port now? Johan indicated he had improved AI behaviour. If not, then maybe some higher priorities for harbors is needed.

Also, could you do a test run with rc4 and check every 6 months how Italy is doing with trades and resource stocks? I'd like to understand if we should change starting trades and how often they would need a boost from Germany (and when it would first be needed).

Thanks
 
Originally posted by Steel
McNaughthon, did you check if the Italian fleet (AI) spends more time in port now? Johan indicated he had improved AI behaviour. If not, then maybe some higher priorities for harbors is needed.

Also, could you do a test run with rc4 and check every 6 months how Italy is doing with trades and resource stocks? I'd like to understand if we should change starting trades and how often they would need a boost from Germany (and when it would first be needed).

Thanks

You know what? They actually do spend more time in port. Usually they have about 3 small fleets out (after they get done transporting troops around), and I have not seen battleships in a long time in my tests. I never really put my finger on it, but did notice that the fleets haning outside of Roma, Napoli and Taranto were a lot smaller than usual, and there were little to no other ship movement in other areas.

I will get on to the resource management aspect. I am using a slightly modified INC file, which has a more accurate 1936 OOB (which gets rid of the loss of 13.00 oil points used per turn due to the removal of those motorized divisions, which did not exist in 1936) so my stats might be slightly more favourable in regards to oil reserves, but will still see a trend in usage by navy and air force.
 
Originally posted by McNaughton
I will get on to the resource management aspect. I am using a slightly modified INC file, which has a more accurate 1936 OOB (which gets rid of the loss of 13.00 oil points used per turn due to the removal of those motorized divisions, which did not exist in 1936) so my stats might be slightly more favourable in regards to oil reserves, but will still see a trend in usage by navy and air force.

I think that observation is going to be our best tool in this. If it looks like our fuel usage is good, then we will leave things the same. If we get all of Mathguy's changes it sounds like oil is going to be in even shorter supply. I haven't seen any plan to add oil to the world to compensate for his added consumption. I like most of the ideas that I have seen come out of his calculator, and am waiting to see how well it can be implemented. MDow
 
Results of my test to Jan 1938 and other suggestions

I was running a test, then my autosive wouldn't reload. It does look very favourable, yet some tweaking (for some resources) appears to be necessary.

Here are the results.

From Jan 1936-July 1937, the Italian fleet of 12 vessels (3 capital, 9 small) patrolled and sat at the following bases. After July 1937 the Italian fleet changed to 14 vessels, with battleships out for a while.

TF 1 Patrolled: (moved in a cycle about once a week)
West Ionian Sea
East Ionian Sea
East Adriatic

TF 2: (this fleet did not move)
Gulf of Sidira

TF 3: (moved in a cycle about once a week)
S Tyrrhenian Sea
N Tyrrhenian Sea
Straits of Sicily

They tended to use between 4.25 and 7.25 fuel (just standing, more used when moving) per day.

Here is the stockpile and usage:

Jan 1936
Coal: 20 000
Steel: 20 000
Rubber: 10 000
Oil: 10 000

Jul 1936 (after Ethiopia Annexed, explains high numbers)*
Coal: 49 000
Steel: 19 500
Rubber: 500
Oil: 20 500

Jan 1937
Coal: 41 000
Steel: 15 200
Rubber: 66
Oil: 24 800

Jul 1937*
Coal: 44 000
Steel: 13 300
Rubber: 66
Oil: 32 000

Jan 1938
Coal: 34 800
Steel: 9000
Rubber: 66
Oil: 35 900

*Keep in mind every February Germany gives Italy 10 000 coal, so this is why the July figures for coal are higher than the January figures, but coal is gradually being depleted.

Looking at the economy, the following is being traded
-314 Coal
+15 Steel
+75 Oil
+34 Rubber

Every once and a while Oil is converted to Rubber. Once the Rubber pool was depleted, demand remained at about 60, while supply was 34. Every few turns, about 60 oil was changed into about 30 rubber (resulting in oil levels decreasing when this happened).

As it stands now, with the 11 oil Italy gets, supplimented by 75 traded on the world market, it can experience drastic increases in the oil supply (by about 5000 points every 6 months). This is due to the world market and the set trade getting an extra 75 per day.

Problems in the future will be when the Steel, then Coal supplies run out. To get this extra oil, loads of Coal are exchanged. Things will improve when/if Albania is conquered (+oil, +coal, +steel), but this will only serve in slowing down the decrease (coal and steel production will not meet requirements).

My suggestions are basically threefold:

#1. Modify the world market for Italy:

Presently it is:
+15 Steel for -30 Coal
+75 Oil for -150 Coal (probably too much oil for the cost of the coal being spent)

Eventually the AI added the following trade
+34 Rubber for about -140 Coal

To make sure the Italian economy remains stable during peacetime (not dipping into the reserves but growing)
+30 Steel for 90 Coal
+60 Rubber for 180 Coal
+40 Oil for 120 Coal

Italy produces the following Coal (the only surplus item it has)
485 Coal (-205 taken by industry). This is better than the original world market deal, but will still drain Italy's resources (notably coal).

Ethiopia will add a further 30 coal, leaving Italian Coal production in 1936 being...
515, after industry the surplus is 310

The world market trades I propose would take away 390 coal, leaving a daily deficit of -90 coal (supplimented by +10 000 coal from Germany) means that every year Italy will lose a lot of coal. The other resources will be stable and/or slowly growing, however, once war starts, Italy's reserves will all dry up.

#2. Add oil events representing direct trade between Romania and Italy similar to those between Romania and Germany (about 6000 HoI oil gained per year based on historic 50 000t per month delivered from Romania). This would result in the removal of the necessity to have Italy trade away 120 coal each day for 40 oil, but rather 60 coal for 20 oil. This would mean that Italy's coal reserve will not decrease, but actually slightly increase (due to German imports). This keeps Italy's resources all growing during peacetime, and when the war does start, Italy will be able to last for a few years after the World Market trades 'die off'.

The new World Market would be... (basically 3 coal for every 1 resource wanted)
+30 Steel for 90 Coal
+60 Rubber for 180 Coal
+20 Oil for 60 Coal

Every resource pool would grow (albiet slowly)

Capturing Albania will do a lot to solve Italy's troubles. It gives them oil, coal and steel, all of which they really need. IMO, Albania should be a major goal of Italy (since it is weakly defended and has two of the most valuable provinces in the Balkans), after Ethiopia it should be goal #1.

#3. (this would not just help Italy, but every nation)

Unless a nation is in a major recession, during peacetime virtually no nation shold face a shortage of resources of any type. Usually nations desired to gain resources because purchasing resources from foreign nations was expensive, not that there were shortages. The main problem with the world market is rubber. There should be enough rubber to have each nation in the world, from 1936-1939 (or when the war starts) running at 100% of their efficiency. The problem in the game is that certain resources are too scarce in the World Market. Some nations reach 99 999 of a certain type of resource (even rubber for some nations), but never trade them on the world market. Maybe we shold do some forced deposits into the world market so that when a nation gets a reserve of 99 999, any new production is not deleted. This is what causes the shortage, what causes nations to spend 5-10x the amount of one resource to get another (i.e., spending 100 coal to get 25 rubber). Trading should be 1:1 or 1:2, and not higher (you need at least 1:3 to guarantee you get what you need when it becomes short in supply, like rubber!). This is why Italy suffers, since it has to give away so much coal to guarantee that it gets enough Steel and Rubber to economically survive. When the Rubber and Steel run out, the large oil and coal supplies disappear not just due to military use, but to conversion, then the entire economy collapses.

Basically, the World Market should have 99 999 of each resource (usually it is just Coal, sometimes Oil and Steel, but NEVER rubber, which is themost exclusive resource, yet one that everyone needs).
 
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Basically, resource management, even in peacetime, for just about every nation (but England and France, who own most of the world!) is very delicate. This is because too much of one resource is in the hands of nations that don't need to get rid of it. England (1100/day) and the Netherlands (700/day) produce enough Rubber to run the world's economies by themselves, yet the World Market is always running short of it because they don't trade even 1/4 of what they have, since they have access to significant amounts of all of the other resources (at least enough to run their own economies).

Oil problems are directly connected to Rubber problems. Even taming fleet usage will still result in oil supplies depleting during peacetime. After one year Italy used up their entire 10 000 rubber reserves, in peace time, requiring the use of oil. To get sufficient oil (for fleet usage and rubber conversion), Coal had to be traded away. Steel could not be traded for in sufficient amounts to meet industry requirements because too much coal was traded away for oil, so eventually Steel, Coal, Rubber and Oil will run out because trading and conversions result in everything decreasing, even though only one resource is running short.

The recent changes to fleet movement has done a lot to alleviate oil pressures, but this is only one part of the equation of resource drain. When war starts, oil use will drastically increase, and supply decrease (due to virtual world market closures). More events need to be done, to suppliment both peacetime and wartime resource problems. Reserves decrease too fast, much faster than what happened historically.
 
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Here is just one more thing I noticed in my game.

(1936 figures)

If all ships in the 1936 navy are sitting in sea zones (not moving) 22.00 Oil is used/day.

If all ships in the 1936 navy are MOVING in sea zones 45.00 Oil is used/day.

If all aircraft in the 1936 oob are MOVING, 45.00 Oil is used/day.

The new system has only a small percentage of ships at sea, and usually they are not moving. This ate up about 5-8 oil/day (below that of domestic oil production, which is good), but dark omens exist as early as 1939 (even if Italy is at peace).
 
Italian Oil

From what I am reading, it looks as if the problem isn't as much usage by the navy which is causing the problems, but more with the trading system in general. If rubber is the major problem, can we give Italy the focus of a better rubber conversion tech? That might solve some of their problems early when combined with the invasion of Albania. Fortunately, none of their early conquests require long distance steaming by the Regina Maria (Italian Navy). The other benifit that I have been seeing, is the limited rage of their operations. I have been mostly seeing them operating between Roma and Tripoli. That cuts down on their consumption significantly. The country that we are going to have to worry about will be the UK if we institute this change. Their fleet has to spend more time steaming to cover their operational areas. They also have more destroyers which would be the unit most effected if we adopt the numbers presented above. I am tempted to leave destroyers at 1 to encourage their use for ASW work. MDow
 
Italy had really problems with oil shortage, this caused her fleet to be used only if necessary... This sound historical to me...
The main problem are the huge amount of oil Italy have to spend even if it doesn't use his fleet....

Maybe we can add 5-6 more oil points to Albanian provinces, helping Italy to support his fleet without screwing the game balance.
Or maybe Italian player should park his fleet on a Egean island without sending here by convoy only supply and no oil....
What do you think?
 
Originally posted by Steel
Italy doesn't really have the IC for doing industry research :(

In fact, very few nations have the industry for this research, let alone achieving more than one tech field at a time.

Yes, MateDow, it is a problem mainly dealing with the economy of nations. Italy manages to gain a surplus of oil at the expense of Coal and at the expense of gaining Steel. Even if we managed to get Italy to transform oil for rubber at 1:1 it will still require a hefty world market trade for oil (at minimum 1:3) to meet military (of oil) and industrial needs (of rubber).

I would like to see more direct nation to nation trading. Trading through events can also give us the option of trading supplies (food/military) for a resource (which is what a lot of nations, like Italy, did). The problem of oil is connected to the problem of rubber distribution, not rubber supply.

I find myself fully supporting the new oil ship system, in light of our ability to keep ships in port during peacetime, yet we must find a way for these nations to get the right amount of oil and rubber in peacetime so they are not overspending other resources to try and get them as no matter what we do with the Admiral AI, we will still face early oil shortages. This is actually swaying from the main topic too much, so I am going to end my discussion here (we should take it up in a more applicable thread).
 
Originally posted by Pkunzipper
Italy had really problems with oil shortage, this caused her fleet to be used only if necessary... This sound historical to me...
The main problem are the huge amount of oil Italy have to spend even if it doesn't use his fleet....

Maybe we can add 5-6 more oil points to Albanian provinces, helping Italy to support his fleet without screwing the game balance.
Or maybe Italian player should park his fleet on a Egean island without sending here by convoy only supply and no oil....
What do you think?

Yes, but Italy had a huge oil surplus before WW2, they won't if they are losing resources due to high loss trades, and their industry collapsing in 1939.

Albanian oil was not produced in sufficient amounts to meet Italy's needs, hence their reliance on other imports (like Romania), so increasing their oil production would mess with game balance as it overestimates production in this one area.

Also, Italy usually takes Albania in 1939, after the damage has been done and most resource pools depleted.

I still say that we must get rubber into the world market, and keep it there in high numbers, or we set up a series of events that would have rubber rich nations trade their rubber to other nations directly. This will solve the oil problem.

(oops! I lied about ending it here!)

CHECK OUT "CORE RESOURCES" FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION
 
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