C.O.R.E. : Technology tree - support, ideas, problems...

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Costs and times...

Originally posted by McNaughton
The one problem with this is nations that only have about 20-50 IC to devote to research, and in order to get one prototype all other research is probably stalled. Possibly testing will find that the AI can handle this, but I have seen it get stumped on other things. It is too bad we cannot have one tech tree for the AI and one for a human.

If we reach the limit of AI capability to R&D, we can always use SR solution (AI only tech that gives them discount on cost/time of R&D).

 

[Gwalcmai]

Re: Re: Re: Costs and times...

Originally posted by Steel
That would be because of the partial IC accrual bug.

Is that one logged? I can't seem to find a bug report for that bug. And I happen to find that one really annoying.

 

[Steel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Costs and times...

Originally posted by Gwalcmai
Is that one logged? I can't seem to find a bug report for that bug. And I happen to find that one really annoying.

It was certainly discussed in the Bug Forum, but there's no formal "bug list" any more

 

[unmerged(18738)]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Costs and times...

Originally posted by Steel
It was certainly discussed in the Bug Forum, but there's no formal "bug list" any more

...which cannot be a good indicator........

-PK

 

[unmerged(19991)]

CORE Mods

Hi all, sorry i got lost and didnt know where the CORE was hiding at.

I want to say is there any progress on tech photos or pictures that will matches there own countries. I dont know if this is a good idea for the minor nations becuz they didnt have that much to gain, except sharing n trade with major nations.

Example: For the Japan, R&D on light-aircraft (Long-Range-Escort) show german photo and would like to change it to Japan A6M2 Zero-Sen from 10106 file.

If there is no progress on this projects, i guess i can do this but this will be for Japan only. Others will have to pick up the torch and work other countries if they'er interesting.

I believe i have all the resources i need to do it, except gotta go get the scanner and figure out what program they use to convert .bmp format.

Zeta

 

[SykoNurse]

Re: CORE Mods

Originally posted by Zeta
Hi all, sorry i got lost and didnt know where the CORE was hiding at.

I want to say is there any progress on tech photos or pictures that will matches there own countries. I dont know if this is a good idea for the minor nations becuz they didnt have that much to gain, except sharing n trade with major nations.

Example: For the Japan, R&D on light-aircraft (Long-Range-Escort) show german photo and would like to change it to Japan A6M2 Zero-Sen from 10106 file.

If there is no progress on this projects, i guess i can do this but this will be for Japan only. Others will have to pick up the torch and work other countries if they'er interesting.

I believe i have all the resources i need to do it, except gotta go get the scanner and figure out what program they use to convert .bmp format.

Zeta

These questions go into the discussion thread stickied on top!

-edit-
damns, I was too fast. i'll put that into tech instead.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: CORE Mods

Originally posted by Zeta
Hi all, sorry i got lost and didnt know where the CORE was hiding at.

I want to say is there any progress on tech photos or pictures that will matches there own countries. I dont know if this is a good idea for the minor nations becuz they didnt have that much to gain, except sharing n trade with major nations.

Example: For the Japan, R&D on light-aircraft (Long-Range-Escort) show german photo and would like to change it to Japan A6M2 Zero-Sen from 10106 file.

If there is no progress on this projects, i guess i can do this but this will be for Japan only. Others will have to pick up the torch and work other countries if they'er interesting.

I believe i have all the resources i need to do it, except gotta go get the scanner and figure out what program they use to convert .bmp format.

Zeta

Not sure if I understand the idea...
It's not possible to make different tech pics for different countries - there is always one picture for one tech. So in your example, if you add japan plane, german players won't be too happy.

On the other hand, if you refer to the difference between picture and tech description to the right of that, it's always easier to change description.

Also, since in 0.7 whole air tech tree got serious changes (with much more exact pictures), almost all air techs in CORE would have different id's.

BTW, I still lack good picture for Self Sealing Fuel Tank technology... Do you have any good suggestion, where can I find it?

 

[unmerged(19991)]

That ok Copper, whenever you play a long game in single or MP and decide to play the germans you can reverse it back to default.

Just need another file to backup the old .bmps.

Im just saying that it would be more interesting for those who would like to play and use there techs.

---------

SykoNurse, is it possible that if friendly nation give there techs and shows up a new tech fields for the players to study them and understand how to use that new ideas? For example, the germans and/or italians give new rocketry ideas that trigger new unit called okhas?

On the R&D, Japaneses didnt have any knowledge of it and it would be alittle off scale here. Im trying to make this best as possible to bring back what actually did happen in history.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Ok, I get the idea...

Maybe we will return to that when 0.9/1.0 C.O.R.E. versions will be prepared, ok?
Those versions are supposed to be more customizable, so maybe alternative tech picture packs are right thing to add there.

 

[markpalm1]

Tankettes rule!

They take only 5 IC, six manpower, are quick to produce, consume zero or minimal supplies and little fuel; and, later on with add-ons get respectable hard, soft and defense values. Plus they're the fastest land unit.

Playing Germany by the time the Allies declare war, I have @90 tankette divisions, with 12 soft attack value. I also have @90 dive bombers, because with CORE they're cheap and fast to produce too.

When war is declared by the allies, (I like to wait for it while I assemble my irresistable force) Poland is reduced in 10 days to a puppet by ferocious assaut.

Then, since all German provinces have been upgraded to 99 infrastructure the tankettes sprint west. They and the bombers are assaulting France in a week, and it falls in two weeks (goes to show you can fight with one hand your back and still kick CORE ass - by wasting IC on infrastructure).

The dive bombers then pound the coast of Britain for a week. Two transports unload two tankette divisions at a time (that's all it takes folks and the trip is short). England should fall in three weeks (it takes a while to get north and there are a lot of English fighter planes).

Then, upgrade all your early tankettes. Position most of the tankettes and dive bombers in Poland one province away from the border. Load Poland up with techs and wait for the Soviet attack.

When they do attack, hit them north and south of the marshes in two big blows of 50+ divisions of tankettes. With the southern attack, drive south to Sebastopol while covering your flank and bag 20 divisions, then move north to surround the south of the marshes.

The northern attack should flank-cover the north and east side of the marshes and also sprint for Moscow. Halt before the capital and wait for a counter-attack: shred it with dive bombers and dug-in tankettes. Then, walk into the city.

Meanwhile, you've totally surrounded the 70+ divisions trapped in the marshes and kept some bombers nearby in case they break out.

There is only one massive Soviet force left, in the north between Moscow and Leningrad. It's too big to dive bomb, but you can pincer it through the forests to it's north and leave it to wither away.

That's all it takes to win in CORE: tankettes, dive bombers, some infantry for occupation and some subs for shredding surface ships.

Ho-hum.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Well, welcome to the forum...

So you know the tankette trick. All I can say - it won't be that easy in 0.7. Both with divers and early tanks. Really.

And I hope that in the next patch naval warfare will be corrected (AI will notice stacking limit).

 

[markpalm1]

Well, welcome to the forum...

So you know the tankette trick. All I can say - it won't be that easy in 0.7. Both with divers and early tanks. Really.

And I hope that in the next patch naval warfare will be corrected (AI will notice stacking limit).

Thanks, I'll be waiting for the update.

By the way, the naval stacking limit blows. Think how big those sea areas really are! I would like to put locust swarms of 90+ destroyers in each zone and evaporate the enemy (the sea tankette strategy - small, cheap, fast).

I also hope they make militia a little tougher too, with plentiful panzerfausts and less supply consumption (c'mon, they live at home!).

 

[MateDow]

Thanks, I'll be waiting for the update.

By the way, the naval stacking limit blows. Think how big those sea areas really are! I would like to put locust swarms of 90+ destroyers in each zone and evaporate the enemy (the sea tankette strategy - small, cheap, fast).

Sorry we went and ruined all of your fun. I do like the stacking limits for individual task forces, those are realistic. I don't like the idea of all of your forces in the sea area counting against a limit. If you want 4 seperate carrier groups to opperate in unison you should be able to do that with maybe a small penalty to take into account the difficulty of coordinating multiple groups across the sea.

I also hope they make militia a little tougher too, with plentiful panzerfausts and less supply consumption (c'mon, they live at home!).

They also have no training, and poor equipment that they had stored around their house. Their officers are poorly trained and have trouble coordinating their troops. Not exactly a formula for effective troops. MDow

 

[Steel]

The naval stacking limits are quite different in the next patch It can't just be removed as it's there for a very good reason, ie to prevent super-stack tactics that made for very boring game. Anyway, I think it will work quite well

 

[markpalm1]

Can you make land units that now have to retreat, disappear instead and become cadre units with little manpower in the strategic redeployment pool?

And instead of having HOI fool around with the minutia of weapons (something someone like, er, Hitler would do, while remaining ignorant of the big picture), can new mods focus more on letting us create our own TOE for divisions and then let us see how they work on the battlefield? I'd like to put an extra recon company in my division say, and see how that effects the combat power.

Also, in combat, do units with higher SA/HA consume more supply? The Germans from what I understand had more fire power at the small unit level but when supply was scarce at the end of the war their combat capability fell quite a bit.

 

[markpalm1]

They also have no training, and poor equipment that they had stored around their house. Their officers are poorly trained and have trouble coordinating their troops. Not exactly a formula for effective troops. MDow[/QUOTE]

I guess I'm thinking more of landswher or reserve units that would use little supply until activated but could quickly come up to speed after some time in combat (getting some unit experience).

Some volksturm/militia fought very hard at the end because they had reckless youth troops or were protecting refugees trying to escape.

I also think air units should use much more manpower, to reflect the extensive support needed. When the German air force lost most of their planes they discovered a lot of surplus men, enough to equip 20 divisions (who fought like the militia in HOI).

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Can you make land units that now have to retreat, disappear instead and become cadre units with little manpower in the strategic redeployment pool?

No. It's not moddable.

And instead of having HOI fool around with the minutia of weapons (something someone like, er, Hitler would do, while remaining ignorant of the big picture), can new mods focus more on letting us create our own TOE for divisions and then let us see how they work on the battlefield? I'd like to put an extra recon company in my division say, and see how that effects the combat power.

There was discussion some time ago about changing whole Basic 40mm+ Medium Tank Division on the more historical system, like 43' Guard Tank Corps w/Heavy Tank Regiment (SOV), but we have decided that is both hard to do and people won't like it (because they love having "Pz. III H divisions"). Second argument is definetly more important.

Some elements (those easier to implement) of the schema you suggest are present, though - H. Tank battalions, Infantry support tanks, L. Tank Recon Batts (and in 0.7 Superheavy Tank Battalions).

Also, in combat, do units with higher SA/HA consume more supply? The Germans from what I understand had more fire power at the small unit level but when supply was scarce at the end of the war their combat capability fell quite a bit.

In CORE most units with higher artillery use (so - higher HA/SA) use more supplies.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Some volksturm/militia fought very hard at the end because they had reckless youth troops or were protecting refugees trying to escape.

Give me examples of their successes. Glorious death is not a success. There was great Patton's quotation about that...

Anyway, in CORE 0.7 late war militia is much better then now.

I also think air units should use much more manpower, to reflect the extensive support needed. When the German air force lost most of their planes they discovered a lot of surplus men, enough to equip 20 divisions (who fought like the militia in HOI).

You read my mind, already done in CORE 0.7.

 

[markpalm1]

Somehow I think I've only partially read your mind.

About the tech tree: part of it could be eliminated by substituting the end result (the ship/plane) for all the little pieces that are irritating. I don't like to have to memorize the tree, or else be surprised that I need to spend another year going through the electronics tree to get my advanced bomber.

The artillery techs are all very similar technology-wise and should be cheap and quick to research but increase the cost and time of equipping a division with them. Same with the infantry techs (except signals).

I think techs on the edge of science: electronics, industry, nukes and rockets should be more expensive, the others less so.

I don't like the doctines at all. I think doctrines should be all granted based on historical events, or achievements in the game, as some of Germany's are.
For example, German units did not know how to retreat properly and had forgotten how fortify an area, until 1943 or so. It was only experience that taught them, not having someone "research" it.

In general, I think research should use less IC, more time (which should vary by the average infrastructure of the country - a substitute for national brainpower) and more manpower.

I think you should be able to share IC and resources, but not tech.

(I think you should be able to fortify industry against air attack. I think engineers should consume less than 1 supply. I think a mod must allow the Spanish civil war to drag on for three years to be realistic.)

 

[unmerged(14683)]

About the tech tree: part of it could be eliminated by substituting the end result (the ship/plane) for all the little pieces that are irritating. I don't like to have to memorize the tree, or else be surprised that I need to spend another year going through the electronics tree to get my advanced bomber.

The artillery techs are all very similar technology-wise and should be cheap and quick to research but increase the cost and time of equipping a division with them. Same with the infantry techs (except signals).

I think techs on the edge of science: electronics, industry, nukes and rockets should be more expensive, the others less so.

Well, you are the fist one that says that detailed tech tree is bad and interlinking various technologies got no sense. The interlinking is the best way to stop players from fast development of only one tech tree - the most effective one (like tanks/artillery combo).
And you don't have to memorize nothing - you can simply develop technologies in the balanced way. I understand, that all the players want to optimize their R&D performance, but when they invent only 2-3 tech branches they shold be aware of the conseqences.

I think techs on the edge of science: electronics, industry, nukes and rockets should be more expensive, the others less so.

So the players stop inventing them at all, as their usefulness will be even lower... :wacko:

I don't like the doctines at all. I think doctrines should be all granted based on historical events, or achievements in the game, as some of Germany's are.
For example, German units did not know how to retreat properly and had forgotten how fortify an area, until 1943 or so. It was only experience that taught them, not having someone "research" it.

We are working on that, there were some serious discussion on that matter - hope that we will be able to create something workable soon.

In general, I think research should use less IC, more time (which should vary by the average infrastructure of the country - a substitute for national brainpower) and more manpower.

Generally I agree, but what do you mean by more manpower?

I think you should be able to share IC and resources, but not tech.

I think you should be able to fortify industry against air attack. I think engineers should consume less than 1 supply. I think a mod must allow the Spanish civil war to drag on for three years to be realistic.

I also think you miss one crucial point - we are modding the game, not writing it. While there are many elements we can change thanks to the flexible system of the HoI, some of them can't be changed without modification of the source code.

Remember - you are talking to te weird guys, who decided that it will be fun to spend some time and make some modification to the game they own, then post them for other people. While we can do some things with the game, we can't replace it with something else - and the changes you suggest are close to that.