Forgot that the same goes for 70mm+, should be 75mm+ because there were no 70-74mm guns.
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Forgot that the same goes for 70mm+, should be 75mm+ because there were no 70-74mm guns.
Re: Re: Re: Example of proposed tech tree
I see you point. How about the following: Make a pair of (cheap)doctrine techs, available early on (or included in the start-up for all nations), that would open alternative artillery paths:
Path A: your system, to cover more countries.
Path B: existing system, which allows all guns to be researched BUT punishing the player/country by much heavier supply drain to simulate screwed up logistics.
Naturally the doctrines would cancel each other (and the paths, so the paths could not be shared?) out.
This way both the rule and exceptions'd be covered. Whar do you think?
I see you point. How about the following: Make a pair of (cheap)doctrine techs, available early on (or included in the start-up for all nations), that would open alternative artillery paths:
Path A: your system, to cover more countries.
Path B: existing system, which allows all guns to be researched BUT punishing the player/country by much heavier supply drain to simulate screwed up logistics.
Naturally the doctrines would cancel each other (and the paths, so the paths could not be shared?) out.
This way both the rule and exceptions'd be covered. Whar do you think?
I am personnaly of the opinion that we shoudl get rid of all of the "+'s" in the tech trees. It makes things look cluttered and doesn't reflect how guns were named. There will be some inacuracies (76mm for a 75mm tech) but there will always be that issue. MDow
I am going to add more GW technology, but I am not sure wether or not to include the heavy HEAVY guns, as I wonder if their use wasn't limited to just the major powers and very few nations used these slow to set up weapons in the 30's and 40s. For example, should Ethiopia be able to research railroad guns as Great War technology? I am going to be looking more at lower levels of artillery, up to about 240mm, because this was the most commonly accessible material.
What I was thinking for Great War weaponry, considering that they were primarily mounted on older spoked wheels, they were not suited for fast motorized transport. So no artillery bonus will be given to any Great War tech for motorized, armour or mechanized units. However, I did create a technology called pneumatic tires (avalible in the Medium Artillery Pieces tech area) that allows for motorized/mechanized/armoured units to use Great War artillery tech, and will give them the bonus' for them once this extra tech is researched.
Also, in the current tech tree I am going to add a tech area for heavy seige weaponry, where you would get the modernized and modern contemporaries of the GW railroad guns and heavy mortors.
I really didn't know what to do with the Cannons and MG's and just put them in places where they felt right. They will most likely move around the tech tree once the air tech tree is at a point where we know where the guns should go.
reposted from Central europe thread:
I had posted a short list some time ago, but I forget where I did so. Basically, most of the major nations should get both. The UK was standardized in the 1880's, Germany in the 1890's, the US in 1908, the Russians in the 1890's as well. even considering the other aspects covered by the Standardized Ammo tech, the previous nations all had it well before WW1. France should be included as well in this category. Two exceptions are teh Italians, who continued to experiment with various rifle calibres and designs through out the war, and Japan, who used several different rifles for infantry, of varying calibres and [designs, and has no consistent TO&E for their divisions. This was a cause of numerous supply issues (wrong ammo to wrong units, rifles of wrong calibre issued to wrong units, etc).
So, as a basic list, Germany, UK, USA, USSR, Czechoslovakia, France get both. The major CW nations should get it as well: Australia, N.Zealand, Canada, S.Africa. A few minors should get Service Rifle: Romania, Hungary, Eire, NatSpain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Greece, Cuba. Italy and Japan should start with neither. Someone else will have to provide details for most of Latin America, as I'm unsure when they went this route.
I had posted a short list some time ago, but I forget where I did so. Basically, most of the major nations should get both. The UK was standardized in the 1880's, Germany in the 1890's, the US in 1908, the Russians in the 1890's as well. even considering the other aspects covered by the Standardized Ammo tech, the previous nations all had it well before WW1. France should be included as well in this category. Two exceptions are teh Italians, who continued to experiment with various rifle calibres and designs through out the war, and Japan, who used several different rifles for infantry, of varying calibres and [designs, and has no consistent TO&E for their divisions. This was a cause of numerous supply issues (wrong ammo to wrong units, rifles of wrong calibre issued to wrong units, etc).
So, as a basic list, Germany, UK, USA, USSR, Czechoslovakia, France get both. The major CW nations should get it as well: Australia, N.Zealand, Canada, S.Africa. A few minors should get Service Rifle: Romania, Hungary, Eire, NatSpain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Greece, Cuba. Italy and Japan should start with neither. Someone else will have to provide details for most of Latin America, as I'm unsure when they went this route.
Here is a pretty solid tech tree up to Self Propelled Artillery (the rest is still in the rough).
Anything with a ( ) around it show the requirements for the technology
Anything with a [ ] around it show what this tech opens up in other tech trees (i.e., tanks, infantry, doctrines, ships, etc...)
Anything with a [*__*] around it shows that this is a new tech that opens some other technology up in another tech tree (i.e., the 50mm Anti-Tank Gun now opens up the 50mm Light Tank Destroyer, wereas before it was the 50mm Tank Gun since there was no 50mm Anti-Tank Gun.
(We can change things like from 70mm+ to 75mm later, once we figure out what we want to do for sure).
Anything with a ( ) around it show the requirements for the technology
Anything with a [ ] around it show what this tech opens up in other tech trees (i.e., tanks, infantry, doctrines, ships, etc...)
Anything with a [*__*] around it shows that this is a new tech that opens some other technology up in another tech tree (i.e., the 50mm Anti-Tank Gun now opens up the 50mm Light Tank Destroyer, wereas before it was the 50mm Tank Gun since there was no 50mm Anti-Tank Gun.
(We can change things like from 70mm+ to 75mm later, once we figure out what we want to do for sure).
Code:
100 # Great War Artillery Pieces
101 # Telegraph Artillery Spotting (100)
102 # Semi-Automatic Breech (100)
103 # Infantry Gun 30mm+ (100, 102) [2305]
104 # Great War Field Artillery Gun 70mm+ (100, 102)
105 # Great War Field Artillery Gun 150mm+ (100, 102)
106 # Great War Mountain Howitzer 70mm+ (100, 104)
107 # Great War Heavy Artillery Gun 240mm+ (100, 105)
108 # Anti-Tank Gun 20mm+ (100, 104)
109 # Anti-Air Gun 70mm+ (100, 102, 104 -110)
110 # Anti-Air Gun 80mm+ (100, 102, 104 -109)
111 # 102mm Naval Gun (100, 102) [6115, 6933]
112 # 127mm Naval Gun (100, 111) [6116, 6612, 6618, 6932, 6934, 6936, 6951]
113 # 152mm Naval Gun (100, 112) [6207, 6613, 6617, 6935]
114 # 203mm Naval Gun (100, 113) [6614]
115 # 254mm Naval Gun (100, 114) [6117, 6615]
116 # 305mm Naval Gun (100, 115) [6118, 6208, 6209]
117 # 356mm Naval Gun (100, 116) [6210, 6211]
118 # 406mm Naval Gun (100, 117) [6616]
200 # Medium Artillery Pieces (100)
201 # Wireless Artillery Spotting (200)
202 # Pneumatic Tires (200)
203 # Basic Tank Gun Ammunition (200, 108)
204 # Infantry Gun 70mm+ (200, 103)
205 # Tank Gun 70mm+ (Short) (200, 203) [2319, 2306, 2703]
206 # Field Artillery Gun 70mm+ Prototype (200, 202, 104)
207 # Field Artillery Gun 70mm+ (200, 206, -209, -211)
208 # Field Artillery Gun 90mm+ Prototype (200, 206)
209 # Field Artillery Gun 90mm+ (200, 208, -207, -211)
210 # Field Artillery Gun 100mm+ Prototype (200, 208)
211 # Field Artillery Gun 100mm+ (200, 210, -207, -209)
212 # Tank Gun 20mm+ (200, 108, 203) [2105, 2210]
213 # Anti-Tank Gun 30mm+ Prototype (200, 212, 202)
214 # Anti-Tank Gun 30mm+ (200, 213, -217) [2307]
215 # Tank Gun 30mm+ (200, 213) [2106, 2316, 2211]
216 # Anti-Tank Gun 40mm+ Prototype (200, 213)
217 # Anti-Tank Gun 40mm+ (200, 216, -214) [2308]
218 # Tank Gun 40mm+ (200, 216) [2993, 2107, 2317, 2212, 2408]
219 # Anti-Air Gun 20mm+ (200)
220 # 20mm+ Cannons (200, 219)
300 # Heavy Artillery Pieces (200)
301 # Infantry Gun 100mm+ (300, 203) [2607]
302 # Mountain Howitzer 70mm+ (300, 207, 106, -303, -304)
303 # Mountain Howitzer 90mm+ (300, 209, -302, -304)
304 # Mountain Howitzer 100mm+ (300, 211, -302, -303)
305 # Field Artillery Gun 120mm+ Prototype (300, 105, 210)
306 # Field Artillery Gun 120mm+ (300, 304, -308, -310) [2943, 2978]
307 # Field Artillery Gun 150mm+ Prototype (300, 304)
308 # Field Artillery Gun 150mm+ (300, 306, -306, -310)
309 # Field Artillery Gun 170mm+ Prototype (300, 306)
310 # Field Artillery Gun 170mm+ (300, 308, -306, -308)
311 # Anti-Air Gun 30mm+ (300, 219, -312)
312 # Anti-Air Gun 40mm+ (300, 219, -311)
313 # 12.7mm MGs (300)
314 # Improved 406mm Naval Gun (300, 118) [6939]
315 # 460mm Naval Gun (300, 314) [6945]
400 # Self-Propelled Artillery (300)
401 # Basic Shaped Charge Theory (400) [1403]
402 # Improved Tank Gun Ammunition (400, 203)
403 # Basic HEAT Ammunition (400, 401) [1404]
404 # Variable Time Fuse (400)
405 # 70mm+ Recoilless Gun (400, 401 plus rocketry tech)
406 # Anti-Tank Gun 50mm+ Prototype (400, 402, 215)
407 # Anti-Tank Gun 50mm+ (400, 406, -411) [*2406*]
408 # Tank Gun 50mm+ (400, 406) [2318, 2409, 2312, 2505]
409 # Anti-Tank Gun 70mm+ Prototype (400, 406)
410 # Anti-Tank Gun 70mm+ (400, 409, -407) [2411]
411 # Tank Gun 70mm+ (Medium) (400, 409)
412 # Self-Propelled Artillery 70mm+ (400, 207, -413, -414, 2314)
413 # Self-Propelled Artillery 90mm+ (400, 209, -412, -414, 2314)
414 # Self-Propelled Artillery 100mm+ (400, 211, -412, -413, 2314)
415 # Multi-Barrelled Anti-Air Guns (400) [12004]
Last edited:
Not true for Japan, in 1936 they used 6.5mm ammunition for their rilfles and MG. In 1939 they started to replace those with 7.7mm, this was done division by division, starting with the ones in Manchuria/China, then Japan and last the Pacific.
Somewhat similar situation for Portugal. In 1936 the standard rifle was the SMLE, and the standard HMG the Vickers .303 (so standardized ammo, too). However, in '37 Portugal decided to switch rifles (the SMLEs were the WWI ones) and opted for the K98. This was probably a decision to capitalize on the large stockpile of Vergueiro rifles, which could easily be converted to the new ammunition. The MGs weren't changed, however, because they were made in Portugal, so for all practical purposes Portugal had both techs in 1936, and tossed out std. ammo in '37 and std.rifle in '39 (converted vergueiros were still different rifles needing maintenance, even if they used the same round).
Hmmmm....All my info says different. the 6.5mm Meiji 44th year Rifle was in service through the Manchurian conflicts. also, the Arisaka .256in rifles were also in use, dating from 1907. The Type 99 Rifle, which was introduced in the 7.7mm, had previously been used as a 6.5mm rifle. So, I suppose an argument can be made for the Service rifle tech, but not standardized ammo. Their SMGs, prior to 1940, were a mix of foreign purchases, mainly MP28's and Bergmans. The 8mm Type 100 SMG wasn't introduced until 1940. The IJA bounced around between 6.5mm, and 7.7mm for their MG's in the 30's, until settling on the Type 99 (1939), or at least that was the last production model.
Now, the issue I have is that of the upgrading of IJA units. This was not uniformly accomplished, and front line units often received wrong shipments. Added to this was the embargo of scrap metal from the US, along with oil trade restrictions, which kept full scale production of these arms from happening (The IJN ate up alot of metal that could have been used for barrels). Plus, the stores of existing ammo and small arms had to be used. So you had mixed actual TO&Es, compared to the theoreticals.
Somehow, I got that mixed up. I had it that they switched MGs and not rifles, but did have them using a 98K variant. Wholesale switches of a rifle aren't an issue really, especially for smaller armies. The thing I failed to mention about the standardized ammo tech is that it represents not only the uniformity of calibre, but also of a minimal quality level. I know that in many S.American nations, they had excellent copies of the 98K, but crappy ammo that made them next to useless. So, I do tend to differnetiate between having both service rifle and standardized ammo, or just the service rifle.
Just a little addon - Poland. 7,92mm Mauser ammo + 9mm Parabellum were pre-war standard of Polish Army.
Any info on S. America, anyone?
The Japanese had these weapons in service in 1936:
- Type 38 Rifle - 6.5mm - was manufactured in 3 lengths, but the longest was used by the infantry
- Type 44 Cavalry Rifle - 6.5mm - short version of the type 38 with integrated folding needle bayonet
- Type 1 Rifle - 6.5mm - only used by the navy, made in italy, identical to the type 38 except for the bolt action
- 'Bergmann Sub Machine Gun' - 9mm - 2 versions used, SIG M1920 (MP18) and MP34, both was used by the SNLF (marines).
- Type 11 Light Machine Gun - 6.5mm - (not a good weapon) replaced by
- Type 96 Light Machine Gun - 6.5mm
- Type 3 Heavy Machine Gun - 6.5mm - replaced by
- Type 92 Heavy Machine Gun - 7.7mm
The problems (as I understand it) they had with replacing the rifles in the pacific was caused by the general problems they had in supplying those areas. If they could supply those areas unhinderd (as can happen in the game) they would/could have replaced those without problems.
It might be a good idea not to give Japan std.ammo., but only for game balance, and maybe because the 6.5mm wasn't as powerfull as the 7.7mm and there isn't a tech for replacing small arms.
H2O
Spoken like someone looking only at the paper design.
Having actually used the 6.5mm Model 38 and 44th Year rifles, I can tell you from experience that they suck. Big time. The type 38 is about as accurate as an elephant with a slingshot, and the type 44 isn't much better. The 7.7mm's are much better, but still not on a level with anything produced in europe. The fixed sights on both models are for AA fire (!), and lack any sort of actual comabt sights. The monopod/bipod set up was flimsy, and was better off being removed, as it posed a danger to the shooter.
It was more than that. Small arms production was secondary to the Naval builds, and air requirements. Japanese industry wasn't able to produce enough of the newer arms to properly make the changes. As such, divsisons would only get partial shipments of new rifles, and no ammo, or would get the ammo, but no rifles. It was a haphazard affair, even on mainland China. This was compounded by the usual bureaucratic errors, and political decisions to arm Manchukuo and Siam at the same time.
Artillery Tech Tree
This is what I have. Are there any suggestions/changes/clarification that anyone thinks should be included in this list?
This is what I have. Are there any suggestions/changes/clarification that anyone thinks should be included in this list?
Code:
100 # Great War Artillery Pieces
101 # Telegraph Artillery Spotting (100)
102 # Semi-Automatic Breech (100)
103 # Infantry Gun 30mm+ (100, 102) [2305]
104 # Great War Field Artillery Gun 70mm+ (100, 102)
105 # Great War Field Artillery Gun 150mm+ (100, 102)
106 # Great War Mountain Howitzer 70mm+ (100, 104)
107 # Great War Heavy Artillery Gun 240mm+ (100, 105)
108 # Anti-Tank Gun 20mm+ (100, 104)
109 # Anti-Air Gun 70mm+ (100, 102, 104 -110)
110 # Anti-Air Gun 80mm+ (100, 102, 104 -109)
111 # 102mm Naval Gun (100, 102) [6115, 6933]
112 # 127mm Naval Gun (100, 111) [6116, 6612, 6618, 6932, 6934, 6936, 6951]
113 # 152mm Naval Gun (100, 112) [6207, 6613, 6617, 6935]
114 # 203mm Naval Gun (100, 113) [6614]
115 # 254mm Naval Gun (100, 114) [6117, 6615]
116 # 305mm Naval Gun (100, 115) [6118, 6208, 6209]
117 # 356mm Naval Gun (100, 116) [6210, 6211]
118 # 406mm Naval Gun (100, 117) [6616]
200 # Medium Artillery Pieces (100)
201 # Wireless Artillery Spotting (200)
202 # Pneumatic Tires (200)
203 # Basic Tank Gun Ammunition (200, 108)
204 # Infantry Gun 70mm+ (200, 103)
205 # Tank Gun 70mm+ (Short) (200, 203) [2319, 2306, 2703]
206 # Field Artillery Gun 70mm+ Prototype (200, 202, 104)
207 # Field Artillery Gun 70mm+ (200, 206, -209, -211)
208 # Field Artillery Gun 90mm+ Prototype (200, 206)
209 # Field Artillery Gun 90mm+ (200, 208, -207, -211)
210 # Field Artillery Gun 100mm+ Prototype (200, 208)
211 # Field Artillery Gun 100mm+ (200, 210, -207, -209)
212 # Tank Gun 20mm+ (200, 108, 203) [2105, 2210]
213 # Anti-Tank Gun 30mm+ Prototype (200, 212, 202)
214 # Anti-Tank Gun 30mm+ (200, 213, -217) [2307]
215 # Tank Gun 30mm+ (200, 213) [2106, 2316, 2211]
216 # Anti-Tank Gun 40mm+ Prototype (200, 213)
217 # Anti-Tank Gun 40mm+ (200, 216, -214) [2308]
218 # Tank Gun 40mm+ (200, 216) [2993, 2107, 2317, 2212, 2408]
219 # Anti-Air Gun 20mm+ (200)
220 # 20mm+ Cannons (200, 219)
300 # Heavy Artillery Pieces (200)
301 # Infantry Gun 100mm+ (300, 203) [2607]
302 # Mountain Howitzer 70mm+ (300, 207, 106, -303, -304)
303 # Mountain Howitzer 90mm+ (300, 209, -302, -304)
304 # Mountain Howitzer 100mm+ (300, 211, -302, -303)
305 # Field Artillery Gun 120mm+ Prototype (300, 105, 210)
306 # Field Artillery Gun 120mm+ (300, 304, -308, -310) [2943, 2978]
307 # Field Artillery Gun 150mm+ Prototype (300, 304)
308 # Field Artillery Gun 150mm+ (300, 306, -306, -310)
309 # Field Artillery Gun 170mm+ Prototype (300, 306)
310 # Field Artillery Gun 170mm+ (300, 308, -306, -308)
311 # Anti-Air Gun 30mm+ (300, 219, -312)
312 # Anti-Air Gun 40mm+ (300, 219, -311)
313 # 12.7mm MGs (300)
314 # Improved 406mm Naval Gun (300, 118) [6939]
315 # 460mm Naval Gun (300, 314) [6945]
400 # Self-Propelled Artillery (300)
401 # Basic Shaped Charge Theory (400) [1403]
402 # Improved Tank Gun Ammunition (400, 203)
403 # Basic HEAT Ammunition (400, 401) [1404]
404 # Variable Time Fuse (400)
405 # 70mm+ Recoilless Gun (400, 401 plus rocketry tech) [1703]
406 # Anti-Tank Gun 50mm+ Prototype (400, 402, 215)
407 # Anti-Tank Gun 50mm+ (400, 406, -411) [*2406*]
408 # Tank Gun 50mm+ (400, 406) [2318, 2409, 2312, 2505]
409 # Anti-Tank Gun 70mm+ Prototype (400, 406)
410 # Anti-Tank Gun 70mm+ (400, 409, -407) [2411]
411 # Tank Gun 70mm+ (Medium) (400, 409) [2998, 2410, 2313, 2983]
412 # Self-Propelled Artillery 70mm+ (400, 207, -413, -414, 2314)
413 # Self-Propelled Artillery 90mm+ (400, 209, -412, -414, 2314)
414 # Self-Propelled Artillery 100mm+ (400, 211, -412, -413, 2314)
415 # Multi-Barrelled Anti-Air Guns (400) [12004]
500 # Improved Equipment and Ordinance (400)
501 # Improved Shaped Charges (500, 401) [1404, 6964]
502 # Improved HEAT Ammunition (500, 403) [1704, 1943]
503 # 200+mm Tank Mortar (500) [2984]
504 # Anti-Tank Gun 80mm+ Prototype (500, 409)
505 # Anti-Tank Gun 80mm+ (500, 504, -508) [2412]
506 # Tank Gun 80mm+ (Early) (600, 505, 110)
507 # Anti-Tank Gun 90mm+ Prototype (500, 510)
508 # Anti-Tank Gun 90mm+ (500, 507, -505) [2413]
509 # Improved 305mm Naval Gun (500, 404, 116) [6938]
510 # Semi-Automatic 203mm Naval Gun (500, 404, 114) [6937]
511 # Self-Propelled Anti-Air 20mm+ (500, 218)
600 # Seige Artillery Pieces (500)
601 # Heavy Artillery Gun 200mm+ Prototype (600, 107, 310)
602 # Heavy Artillery Gun 200mm+ (600, 601, -604, -606)
603 # Heavy Artillery Gun 240mm+ Prototype (600, 601)
604 # Heavy Artillery Gun 240mm+ (600, 603, -602, -606)
605 # Heavy Artillery Gun 300mm+ Prototype (600, 603)
606 # Heavy Artillery Gun 300mm+ (600, 605, -602, -604)
607 # Rocket Artillery 100mm+ (600)
608 # Tank Gun 70mm+ (Long) (600, 411) [2981, 2506]
700 # Self-Propelled Rocket Artillery (600)
701 # Advanced Tank Gun Ammunition (700, 402)
702 # Infantry Gun 150mm+ (700, 204)
703 # Anti-Tank Gun 100mm+ Prototype (700, 602, 701)
704 # Anti-Tank Gun 100mm+ (700, 703) [2609]
705 # Anti-Tank Gun 120mm+ Prototype (700, 703)
706 # Anti-Tank Gun 120mm+ (700, 705) [2610]
707 # Tank Gun 80mm+ (Late) (700, 504, 701)
708 # Self-Propelled Rocket Artillery 100mm+ (700, 607, 2314)
800 # Radar Assisted Equipment and Ordinance (700)
801 # Radar Proximity Fuse (800, 405)
802 # Rangefinder Radar (800, *3002*)
803 # Basic Counter-Battery Radar (800,
804 # Tank Gun 100mm+ (800, 703)
805 # 30mm Cannons (800, 219)
900 # Mechanized Artillery Pieces (800)
901 # Rocket Assisted Projectiles (900,
902 # Rocket Artillery 200mm+ (900, 607)
903 # Tank Gun 120mm+ (900, 705)
904 # Self-Propelled Anti-Air 30mm+ (900, 310, -905)
905 # Self-Propelled Anti-Air 40mm+ (900, 311, -904)
1000 # Heavy Rocket Artillery (900)
1001 # Rocket Artillery 300mm+ (1000, 602)
1002 # Self-Propelled Rocket Artillery 200mm+ (1000, 608, 2314)
1100 # Advanced Equipment and Ordinance (1000)
1101 # Improved Counter-Battery Radar (1100, 803)
1102 # Revolver Cannon (1100)
1103 # Semi-Modern Tank Gun Ammunition (1100, 502)
1104 # Tank Gun 150mm+ (1100,
1105 # Anti-Air Gun 50mm+ (1100, 219)
1200 # Advanced Artillery Pieces (1100)
1201 # Self-Propelled Artillery 120mm+ (1200, 306, -1202, -1203, 2941)
1202 # Self-Propelled Artillery 150mm+ (1200, 308, -1201, -1203, 2941)
1203 # Self-Propelled Artillery 170mm+ (1200, 310, -1201, -1202, 2941)
1204 # Self-Propelled Rocket Artillery 300mm+ (1200, 1001 plus tank tech)
1205 # Self-Propelled Anti-Air 50mm+ (1200, 1105)Re: Artillery Tech Tree
I think that we should have some standard sizes for artillery and stick with those and get rid of those annoying +'s in the tree. Most nations were pretty common in having a 75mm, 105mm and a 155mm. That be more historical for most nations.
I would like to get rid of all of the air defence benifits for naval units on most of the AA guns. Historically the only AA guns added to naval vessels were 20mm and 40mm varieties. It is unrealistic to allow upgrades for anything bigger.
Maybe a tech for Proximity Fused AA Shells? Would have the requirement of Radar Proximity Fuse and would give a benefit for AA protection for naval units (probably could be expanded for other units as well).
Those are just my thoughts. MDow
I think that we should have some standard sizes for artillery and stick with those and get rid of those annoying +'s in the tree. Most nations were pretty common in having a 75mm, 105mm and a 155mm. That be more historical for most nations.
I would like to get rid of all of the air defence benifits for naval units on most of the AA guns. Historically the only AA guns added to naval vessels were 20mm and 40mm varieties. It is unrealistic to allow upgrades for anything bigger.
Maybe a tech for Proximity Fused AA Shells? Would have the requirement of Radar Proximity Fuse and would give a benefit for AA protection for naval units (probably could be expanded for other units as well).
Those are just my thoughts. MDow
Re: Re: Artillery Tech Tree
Ok, that can be done (i.e., artillery barrel ratings). I am going through the current tree, and seeing exactly what is the effort required and what will affect other tech areas due to my changes. We are going to have to reduce starting statistics, in lieu of the new Great War artillery techs, and I am going to be moving the 12.7mm MG down the tech tree, adding an early version of the 80mm Tank Gun, so this will affect Basic Fighters, Bombers and tanks in the current system (a simple fix can remedy this).
I think that since there is already a DP-Gun naval tech, that you are right in the exclusion of 70mm and 80mm AA Guns from naval technology, since they were not used as frequently and were actually being phased out because of their inneffectiveness. Also, since you either have the choice of 30mm or 40mm AA Guns, not both, this will also cut down on the AA firepower of ships.
I think we could piggyback AA Proximity Fuses with existing Artillery Fuse technology, since they were both based off of the same concepts.
Ok, that can be done (i.e., artillery barrel ratings). I am going through the current tree, and seeing exactly what is the effort required and what will affect other tech areas due to my changes. We are going to have to reduce starting statistics, in lieu of the new Great War artillery techs, and I am going to be moving the 12.7mm MG down the tech tree, adding an early version of the 80mm Tank Gun, so this will affect Basic Fighters, Bombers and tanks in the current system (a simple fix can remedy this).
I think that since there is already a DP-Gun naval tech, that you are right in the exclusion of 70mm and 80mm AA Guns from naval technology, since they were not used as frequently and were actually being phased out because of their inneffectiveness. Also, since you either have the choice of 30mm or 40mm AA Guns, not both, this will also cut down on the AA firepower of ships.
I think we could piggyback AA Proximity Fuses with existing Artillery Fuse technology, since they were both based off of the same concepts.
Re: Re: Artillery Tech Tree
I'm not so sure about this... Germany, for example had 150mm (not 155mm) artillery, and the Soviets used a lot of 76mm and 122mm guns. The 122mm falls entirely outside of your proposed categories - its not just a matter of cosmetics any more.
And when it comes to AT guns, we'd have to keep the + in at least some categories - in 40mm+ (if we intend to bunch the 2-pounder with the Soviet 45mm and various 47mm guns), in 75mm+ (all those 76.2mm guns) and 85mm+ (which would include 85mm, 88mm and 90mm).
The categories you could leave clean of +'s would be 37mm, 50mm and 57mm.
As for AA, didn't the Bismarck class have 10,5 cm AA guns? And I believe 88mm guns were also mounted on German warships, although I couldn't point you to a source right now.
I'm not so sure about this... Germany, for example had 150mm (not 155mm) artillery, and the Soviets used a lot of 76mm and 122mm guns. The 122mm falls entirely outside of your proposed categories - its not just a matter of cosmetics any more.
And when it comes to AT guns, we'd have to keep the + in at least some categories - in 40mm+ (if we intend to bunch the 2-pounder with the Soviet 45mm and various 47mm guns), in 75mm+ (all those 76.2mm guns) and 85mm+ (which would include 85mm, 88mm and 90mm).
The categories you could leave clean of +'s would be 37mm, 50mm and 57mm.
As for AA, didn't the Bismarck class have 10,5 cm AA guns? And I believe 88mm guns were also mounted on German warships, although I couldn't point you to a source right now.
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Re: Re: Artillery Tech Tree
Most, but not all. The USSR's standard gun was the 122mm, which should be a represented option, and the US had some 8" (203mm, I reckon) in addition to the calibres you mentioned. Probably the 8" should be represented the way we do recon and infantry support battalions, as a sort of abstract increase for all divisions (in cost, SA and supply drain) as some form of super-heavy artillery support battalion. (If it isn't already there; I haven't checked.)
jkk
Most, but not all. The USSR's standard gun was the 122mm, which should be a represented option, and the US had some 8" (203mm, I reckon) in addition to the calibres you mentioned. Probably the 8" should be represented the way we do recon and infantry support battalions, as a sort of abstract increase for all divisions (in cost, SA and supply drain) as some form of super-heavy artillery support battalion. (If it isn't already there; I haven't checked.)
jkk