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dont forget some arty was moved Horsetowed in early war
(and maybe during all the war) At least germany used horses in Poland and 'low tech' countrys would use too.
Re: Question
#1. I would move that to Logistic infantry tech like the 'Tracked ammo carrier'?
#2. Industry tech after some rubber chemesty, the tire are made of rubber so it would make sense. Also this tech should be very low in the tree and maybe a prereq for 'Basic Truck' or so? (it also could be used as prereq for vehicle Mass assembly and airtechs)
#3 Arty tech, with Light Air , maybe basic Longrangefighter as prereq? (also see 'Naval spotting Aircraft' )
#1. I would move that to Logistic infantry tech like the 'Tracked ammo carrier'?
#2. Industry tech after some rubber chemesty, the tire are made of rubber so it would make sense. Also this tech should be very low in the tree and maybe a prereq for 'Basic Truck' or so? (it also could be used as prereq for vehicle Mass assembly and airtechs)
#3 Arty tech, with Light Air , maybe basic Longrangefighter as prereq? (also see 'Naval spotting Aircraft' )
Re: Question
I would go for Industry - combined with trucks those techs can make whole level of industry techs ("Means of transport"?), possibly 1-2 level (all chemistry from 1-2 level can be moved to the 0 level)
Again, Industry, 1-2 level.
Send me the code, ok? I'll add it on the 0 level of the new air tech tree (light air should be auitable for that).
I would go for Industry - combined with trucks those techs can make whole level of industry techs ("Means of transport"?), possibly 1-2 level (all chemistry from 1-2 level can be moved to the 0 level)
Again, Industry, 1-2 level.
Send me the code, ok? I'll add it on the 0 level of the new air tech tree (light air should be auitable for that).
Re: Re: Question
I posted it on the Wiki right under your revised armour in the Integration area.
I will remove the Pneumatic Tire and Tracked Utility Vehicle from the Artillery Tree. Possibly I can come up with a revised Industry tree including a transportation area unless someone else is on this, as the artillery tree is just about done.
I posted it on the Wiki right under your revised armour in the Integration area.
I will remove the Pneumatic Tire and Tracked Utility Vehicle from the Artillery Tree. Possibly I can come up with a revised Industry tree including a transportation area unless someone else is on this, as the artillery tree is just about done.
I am thinking about combining the 70mm, 100mm and 150mm Infantry Guns into just two techs, the Light Infantry Gun tech (70mm) and the Heavy Infantry Gun tech (100mm and 150mm)
The reason behind this is because:
#1. The heavier guns appear way too late. Historically the Germans had a 150mm Infantry Gun in 1939 (at the latest), but the game has them in tech level 7.
#2. If I group them all together, and make the player choose between them (i.e., just one of the three), this will cause problems, as they are requirements for Heavy Assault Guns, and if you don't get one, you don't get them all.
#3. If I group them all together and allow the player to use all of them, this will cause some major increases in statistics, by using relatively obsolete weapons.
Limiting them to two techs, appearing early in the game, will be the best solution.
The reason behind this is because:
#1. The heavier guns appear way too late. Historically the Germans had a 150mm Infantry Gun in 1939 (at the latest), but the game has them in tech level 7.
#2. If I group them all together, and make the player choose between them (i.e., just one of the three), this will cause problems, as they are requirements for Heavy Assault Guns, and if you don't get one, you don't get them all.
#3. If I group them all together and allow the player to use all of them, this will cause some major increases in statistics, by using relatively obsolete weapons.
Limiting them to two techs, appearing early in the game, will be the best solution.
Tank Suspension
Here is an idea for tanks to make them a bit more individualized from nation to nation. I am not sure wether or not the costs are worth it for the gain achieved (i.e., is +1 speed worth +1 cost?). If not, I can retweak the specific bonus'.
I looked at many websites and books, and it appeared that the Christie suspension, on average, gave tanks speeds of 30-40 mph, Horizontal (basically intermediate between Vickers and Christie suspension) resulted in speeds of 25-30 mph, while Vickers suspension resulted in speeds of 15-25 mph.
Vickers suspension was very common, and fairly affordable, the Christie suspension was also common, but was more complicated and expensive to produce, while the horizontal suspension represents an in-between tech that was faster than the Vickers but slower than the Christie (also with an inbetween cost).
This way players can customize their armoured force to suit their needs. If they really care about speed, they will get the Christie suspension. If they need a cheap tank, they will get the Vickers suspension.
REVISED SEE BELOW
Here is an idea for tanks to make them a bit more individualized from nation to nation. I am not sure wether or not the costs are worth it for the gain achieved (i.e., is +1 speed worth +1 cost?). If not, I can retweak the specific bonus'.
I looked at many websites and books, and it appeared that the Christie suspension, on average, gave tanks speeds of 30-40 mph, Horizontal (basically intermediate between Vickers and Christie suspension) resulted in speeds of 25-30 mph, while Vickers suspension resulted in speeds of 15-25 mph.
Vickers suspension was very common, and fairly affordable, the Christie suspension was also common, but was more complicated and expensive to produce, while the horizontal suspension represents an in-between tech that was faster than the Vickers but slower than the Christie (also with an inbetween cost).
This way players can customize their armoured force to suit their needs. If they really care about speed, they will get the Christie suspension. If they need a cheap tank, they will get the Vickers suspension.
REVISED SEE BELOW
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Tank Hull
Here is another optional idea. It deals with Tank hull construction. Basically there were three common ways, which each had their strengths and weaknesses. Bolted tanks are cheap yet weak, cast tanks were expensive yet strong, and welded hulls are inbetween.
REVISED SEE BELOW
Here is another optional idea. It deals with Tank hull construction. Basically there were three common ways, which each had their strengths and weaknesses. Bolted tanks are cheap yet weak, cast tanks were expensive yet strong, and welded hulls are inbetween.
REVISED SEE BELOW
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Which is not that bad, right? Let's make 3-4 classes (100mm, 122mm, 150-155mm, other), player would have to choose his "standard heavy gun" (GER got 100mm, SOV got 122mm and so on) and simply rise bonus for each assault gun model (as those will exclude each other).
Both solutions are good, but I usually prefer solutions with more historical details.
EDIT:
And I really like suspension/hull techs (although rise/drop of bulid time should be more like 10, not 1 day). Best place for them will be off course Mass Production level of Industrial tech tree.
Great work!
I just realized something about the suspension and hull techs, it makes no sense in anyone researching Welded Hull or Horizontal Suspension, since they give you nothing. I think if I just remove those two techs, and just have Bolted Hull, Cast Hull, Christie Suspension and Vickers Suspension, assuming that the BASIC tank would use Horizontal Suspension and Welded Hull, and would not change until/unless you choose to research the 4 new techs.
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Which is not that bad, right? Let's make 3-4 classes (100mm, 122mm, 150-155mm, other), player would have to choose his "standard heavy gun" (GER got 100mm, SOV got 122mm and so on) and simply rise bonus for each assault gun model (as those will exclude each other).
Both solutions are good, but I usually prefer solutions with more historical details.
I can revamp the tech tree, it won't be hard to include a different range of heavy Infantry Guns.
The player should be able to get...
30mm+ Infantry Gun
70mm+ Infantry Gun
and a choice between...
100mm+ Infantry Gun, 120mm+ Infantry Gun, and 150mm+ Infantry Gun
That seems to work for me.
Also, one tech that I was thinking of addig was the Self Propelled Infantry Gun (like the sIG 33). Currently we have heavier assault guns, but these were lightly armoured (using primarily Basic Light Tank Hulls), but offered Armoured Divisions some good assault bonus' (I gave them a +10% for Armoured Urban Combat). This should probably go in the Armour tech (with the 30mm+ Assault Gun), and should range from 30mm+, 100mm+, 120mm+ and 150mm+ Light Assault Gun.
Thanks!
Do you have any idea how much extra time the Cast hull should take and how much quicker you can get a Bolted hull? Is 10 days sufficient?
Also, are the costs sufficient? For example, would anyone ever choose the +1 speed at expense of tanks costing +1 IC? Should it be +2 speed (since they were almost, even in rough terrain, twice as fast as Vicker's suspension tanks), but add +0.01 supply to each armoured division simulating the high amount of maintenance required.
If they are to be in industry, like trucks and utility tractors, I think that they shold be easy for most nations to research, as it would really help minor nations to have Vickers suspension and bolted hull, as they would get weak and slow but cheap and quick to build tanks (strangely enough, most minor nations did have bolted armour and used the vickers suspension). We must remember that minor nations have a difficult time in researching more than 2-3 tech fields at a time, some find it even tough to do one. Possibly some nations could get these through events (with an option of yes/no), as most nations did purchase this technology anyway.
Revised Armour Bonus'
Ok, here is a revised proposal. I decided to keep the middle techs, as they are useful in deactivating the other techs, however, I lowered their cost to zero and time to one day to simulate the fact that this is the tech you are currently using.
For suspension, I increased the Christie speed to +2, but added a fuel cost of +0.02 and supply cost of 0.01 (simulating tanks moving at faster speeds, using up more fuel, and requiring more maintenance).
I increased the Vickers speed loss by -2, but added a fuel bonus of -0.01 simulating that these tanks are moving slowly and are more fuel efficient.
For armour, I changed the time cost to be +/-10 Days, and changed the bonus for cast hull to +2 defense (they were very strong), and the penalty for bolted hull to -2 defense.
Ok, here is a revised proposal. I decided to keep the middle techs, as they are useful in deactivating the other techs, however, I lowered their cost to zero and time to one day to simulate the fact that this is the tech you are currently using.
For suspension, I increased the Christie speed to +2, but added a fuel cost of +0.02 and supply cost of 0.01 (simulating tanks moving at faster speeds, using up more fuel, and requiring more maintenance).
I increased the Vickers speed loss by -2, but added a fuel bonus of -0.01 simulating that these tanks are moving slowly and are more fuel efficient.
For armour, I changed the time cost to be +/-10 Days, and changed the bonus for cast hull to +2 defense (they were very strong), and the penalty for bolted hull to -2 defense.
Code:
application = { # Christie Suspension
id = 000001
name = "Christie Suspension"
desc = "The Christie suspension was
expensive but resulted in an extremely fast tank. Historically this
was the British Cruiser Tank Series, Russian BT and T-34 Series,
German Pz.kpfw 38(t) and Panther"
required = { 2201 2202 }
chance = 90
cost = 8
time = 90
neg_offset = 20
pos_offset = 40
effects = {
command = { type = speed which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 2 }
command = { type = build_cost which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 1 }
command = { type = supply_consumption which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 0.1}
command = { type = fuel_consumption which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 0.2 }
command = { type = deactivate which = 000002 } #
command = { type = deactivate which = 000003 } # Vickers
}
}
application = { # Horizontal Suspension
id = 000002
name = "Horizontal Suspension"
desc = "This very common form of suspension
was cheaper than the Christie suspension, and resulted in faster
tanks than the Vickers suspension. Historically this was the
German Pz.kpfw III and IV series and American M2, M3 and M4
series"
required = { 2201 2202 }
chance = 90
cost = 0
time = 1
neg_offset = 20
pos_offset = 40
effects = {
command = { type = deactivate which = 000001 } # Christie
command = { type = deactivate which = 000003 } # Vickers
}
}
application = { # Vickers Suspension
id = 000003
name = "Vickers Suspension"
desc = "The Vickers Suspension is common
and inexpensive but did resulted in fairly slow tanks. Historically
this was the Italian Medium Tank Series, Japanese Type 89 and
Czech LT vs 35"
required = { 2201 2202 }
chance = 90
cost = 8
time = 90
neg_offset = 20
pos_offset = 40
effects = {
command = { type = speed which = armor when = on_upgrade value = -2 }
command = { type = build_cost which = armor when = on_upgrade value = -1 }
command = { type = fuel_consumption which = armor when = on_upgrade value = -0.1 }
command = { type = deactivate which = 000001 } # Christie
command = { type = deactivate which = 000002 } #
}
}
application = { # Cast Hull
id = 000004
name = "Cast Hull"
desc = "Cast tank hulls were extremely
durable and capable of shrugging off powerful hits, yet was
extremely expensive and time consuming to produce. Historically
this was the British Matilda and early Russian T-34 tanks"
required = { 2100 }
chance = 90
cost = 8
time = 90
neg_offset = 20
pos_offset = 40
effects = {
command = { type = ground_defense which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 2 }
command = { type = build_cost which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 1 }
command = { type = build_time which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 10 }
command = { type = deactivate which = 000005 } # Welded Hull
command = { type = deactivate which = 000006 } # Bolted Hull
}
}
application = { # Welded Hull
id = 000005
name = "Welded Hull"
desc = "Welded tank hulls offered a viable
intermediate step between cast hulls and bolted hulls. Historically
this was the American M4 Sherman and German Pz.kpfw Mark III
and IV series"
required = { 2100 }
chance = 90
cost = 0
time = 1
neg_offset = 20
pos_offset = 40
effects = {
command = { type = deactivate which = 000004 } # Cast Hull
command = { type = deactivate which = 000006 } # Bolted Hull
}
}
application = { # Bolted Hull
id = 000006
name = "Bolted Hull"
desc = "Bolted tank hulls offered a
cheap and fast method of creating armoured fighting vehicles,
however sacrificing durability. Historically they were the early
British Cruiser series and Italian Medium Tank series"
required = { 2100 }
chance = 90
cost = 8
time = 90
neg_offset = 20
pos_offset = 40
effects = {
command = { type = ground_defense which = armor when = on_upgrade value = -2 }
command = { type = build_cost which = armor when = on_upgrade value = -1 }
command = { type = build_time which = armor when = on_upgrade value = -10 }
command = { type = deactivate which = 000004 } # Cast Hull
command = { type = deactivate which = 000005 } # Welded Hull
}
}
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Aircraft Tech
Those working on the Aircraft (light and heavy) Tech Tree, I am wondering if the technology "Self Sealing Fuel Tanks" is/has been implemented? Historically this was extremely important for aircraft, as it significantly increased their durability as when their fuel tank was perforated it would immediately seal up instead of leak all over the aircraft and turn it into a tinderbox.
It could be an aircraft or industry tech, one dependant on some form of rubber research (although well before plastics).
Those working on the Aircraft (light and heavy) Tech Tree, I am wondering if the technology "Self Sealing Fuel Tanks" is/has been implemented? Historically this was extremely important for aircraft, as it significantly increased their durability as when their fuel tank was perforated it would immediately seal up instead of leak all over the aircraft and turn it into a tinderbox.
It could be an aircraft or industry tech, one dependant on some form of rubber research (although well before plastics).
Tech and Doctrine Costs
Was there any decision about a standard for tech costs that we are going to use? I have been writing the new naval doctrine tree and have been using 4 IC for 360 or 720 days for that tree but didn't want to ruin the balance by being underpriced. I am also getting ready to write the submarine tree and wanted to be sure of any scheme before I started.
It seems to me that if we are going to be cutting the cost of research severely, we will have to increase the price of many units to absorb the extra production and keep maga-armies from appearing. MDow
Was there any decision about a standard for tech costs that we are going to use? I have been writing the new naval doctrine tree and have been using 4 IC for 360 or 720 days for that tree but didn't want to ruin the balance by being underpriced. I am also getting ready to write the submarine tree and wanted to be sure of any scheme before I started.
It seems to me that if we are going to be cutting the cost of research severely, we will have to increase the price of many units to absorb the extra production and keep maga-armies from appearing. MDow
Re: Tech and Doctrine Costs
Just let us know what you are doing, and how it works, and we will coordinate costs.
I think that there should be three types of costs.
#1
Theoretical Concept:
These are the 'Gold' techs and doctrines, where you are testing existing things and seeing how they work in the real world. For example, when you are researching "10100 Basic Fighter Development", you are actually testing things that you learned from practical experience of "#10000 Basic Fighter Engine and Aerodynamic Design". Realistically, you aren't building anything, but mainly observing what works and what doesn't work of things that currently exist. As doctrines, you are listening to theorists, watching wargames, or learning from actual war experience.
This should take a lot of time (360-720 days), but not cost much (4-8 IC). Nothing is really produced, but mainly people and projects employed to observe and report on theories, tests of produced equipment or observations abroad.
----------
#2
Applied/Prototype Research:
These techs give you stuff. Basically this is new weapons and/or equipment, but not in any large quantity. It is like "#2302 Improved Suspension" and "#2103 Basic Light Tank Prototype Tests, where you actually get a physical item at the end of this, yet not a product ready for mass implementation into your army but you have a few examples that you test to see if they are worthy of mass production. This tech is basically putting together Theoretical Concepts into an actual product, or rather prototype.
They should take relatively short periods of time, since this is basically developing parts of a larger machine (60-360 days) but cost a lot of IC (6-14 IC), depending on the size/complexity and amount of the item. Producing prototypes is actually fairly expensive (I was reading up on the Christie tank prototypes, and producing 4 of them cost about about an equivalent of $31 000 000 of today's money). We must decide, though, wether or not to have things expensive and short, or cheap and long to research, however, that $31 000 000 included the Gear, Engine, Suspension, Gun and Prototype creation and testing.
----------
#3
Industrial Implementation:
Some techs aren't actually research, but represent preparing industry in order to produce your new item. For example (#2106 Basic Light Tank (30+mm)), there is no actual research going on here, but rather applying everything researched up to this point (gear, engine, suspension, 30mm Gun, tank prototype, etc.) into the factories so they can mass produce it. Basically the prototype tests give you the finished product (i.e., you have the finished product, but only about 4 of them and your industries are not set up to produce them), but the actual (Basic Light Tank (30+mm)) gives you an industry geared to mass produce this vehicle.
It should take a short period of time (60-120 days), but it should be really expensive (12-24 IC) because you basically have to revamp entire industries. This should get cheaper the further along you are in the research tree, as once you have a factory geared for producing the Basic Medium Tank, you don't have to change much to get it producing the Improved Medium Tank (especially since they both use the same Gears, Suspension and Engine).
What we also have to look at is wether or not this implementation/tech gives immediate benefits (i.e., when = now) or requires a refit and/or fresh construction before a unit experiences the benefits (i.e., when = on_upgrade). It will really increase cost and time if you get the artillery guns "when = now", since this would be tantamount to not only gearing up production, but producing and distributing enough guns/shells to equip your entire army/navy/airforce. However, if the gun/shell bonus is "when = on_upgrade" all you are doing is getting industries ready for production, not actually producing and distributing things.
We should also rethink about what should be upgraded NOW, and what should be upgraded ON_UPGRADE. Should artillery really be upgraded immediately once you get the tech, or only when you refit or build new units? Will this just become annoying, or something that the AI doesn't do (does the AI upgrade infantry units?).
----------
In regards to doctrines, I was never pleased to see that the US can research "#12500 Late War Combat Testing" by 1939, before they even think about entering a war. I was mulling about some sort of solution, and was thinking that we could implement a system that requires units to be at war to actually be able to research doctrines that were a result of any type of war experience.
Special national doctrines, like "Political Control over Army (SOV only)", are gained through an event. I was thinking we could do the same thing with early war doctrines.
Basically, the naval, land and air doctrine tech trees will end once they finish Pre-War military testing. Basically to them the tech tree is done. Early-War testing can only be accessed through an event for ANY nation that checks to see if they are at war. If a nation is at war, this event is triggered and they get a technology called "War Doctrine" (or something like that) which is the only requirement for any doctrine in "Early War Experience Analysis" that gives you any form of bonus (i.e., #12201 Combat Training Team Doctrine). You can research all of the Levels, but get none of the applied doctrines until you get this 'at war' event.
This will require the creation of a specific technology that is the requirement for all 1st stage War Experience techs (i.e., those that just require "Early War Experience Analysis" and a pre-war applied doctrine like "Point Anti-Air Defense Doctrine").
Any thoughts?
Just let us know what you are doing, and how it works, and we will coordinate costs.
I think that there should be three types of costs.
#1
Theoretical Concept:
These are the 'Gold' techs and doctrines, where you are testing existing things and seeing how they work in the real world. For example, when you are researching "10100 Basic Fighter Development", you are actually testing things that you learned from practical experience of "#10000 Basic Fighter Engine and Aerodynamic Design". Realistically, you aren't building anything, but mainly observing what works and what doesn't work of things that currently exist. As doctrines, you are listening to theorists, watching wargames, or learning from actual war experience.
This should take a lot of time (360-720 days), but not cost much (4-8 IC). Nothing is really produced, but mainly people and projects employed to observe and report on theories, tests of produced equipment or observations abroad.
----------
#2
Applied/Prototype Research:
These techs give you stuff. Basically this is new weapons and/or equipment, but not in any large quantity. It is like "#2302 Improved Suspension" and "#2103 Basic Light Tank Prototype Tests, where you actually get a physical item at the end of this, yet not a product ready for mass implementation into your army but you have a few examples that you test to see if they are worthy of mass production. This tech is basically putting together Theoretical Concepts into an actual product, or rather prototype.
They should take relatively short periods of time, since this is basically developing parts of a larger machine (60-360 days) but cost a lot of IC (6-14 IC), depending on the size/complexity and amount of the item. Producing prototypes is actually fairly expensive (I was reading up on the Christie tank prototypes, and producing 4 of them cost about about an equivalent of $31 000 000 of today's money). We must decide, though, wether or not to have things expensive and short, or cheap and long to research, however, that $31 000 000 included the Gear, Engine, Suspension, Gun and Prototype creation and testing.
----------
#3
Industrial Implementation:
Some techs aren't actually research, but represent preparing industry in order to produce your new item. For example (#2106 Basic Light Tank (30+mm)), there is no actual research going on here, but rather applying everything researched up to this point (gear, engine, suspension, 30mm Gun, tank prototype, etc.) into the factories so they can mass produce it. Basically the prototype tests give you the finished product (i.e., you have the finished product, but only about 4 of them and your industries are not set up to produce them), but the actual (Basic Light Tank (30+mm)) gives you an industry geared to mass produce this vehicle.
It should take a short period of time (60-120 days), but it should be really expensive (12-24 IC) because you basically have to revamp entire industries. This should get cheaper the further along you are in the research tree, as once you have a factory geared for producing the Basic Medium Tank, you don't have to change much to get it producing the Improved Medium Tank (especially since they both use the same Gears, Suspension and Engine).
What we also have to look at is wether or not this implementation/tech gives immediate benefits (i.e., when = now) or requires a refit and/or fresh construction before a unit experiences the benefits (i.e., when = on_upgrade). It will really increase cost and time if you get the artillery guns "when = now", since this would be tantamount to not only gearing up production, but producing and distributing enough guns/shells to equip your entire army/navy/airforce. However, if the gun/shell bonus is "when = on_upgrade" all you are doing is getting industries ready for production, not actually producing and distributing things.
We should also rethink about what should be upgraded NOW, and what should be upgraded ON_UPGRADE. Should artillery really be upgraded immediately once you get the tech, or only when you refit or build new units? Will this just become annoying, or something that the AI doesn't do (does the AI upgrade infantry units?).
----------
In regards to doctrines, I was never pleased to see that the US can research "#12500 Late War Combat Testing" by 1939, before they even think about entering a war. I was mulling about some sort of solution, and was thinking that we could implement a system that requires units to be at war to actually be able to research doctrines that were a result of any type of war experience.
Special national doctrines, like "Political Control over Army (SOV only)", are gained through an event. I was thinking we could do the same thing with early war doctrines.
Basically, the naval, land and air doctrine tech trees will end once they finish Pre-War military testing. Basically to them the tech tree is done. Early-War testing can only be accessed through an event for ANY nation that checks to see if they are at war. If a nation is at war, this event is triggered and they get a technology called "War Doctrine" (or something like that) which is the only requirement for any doctrine in "Early War Experience Analysis" that gives you any form of bonus (i.e., #12201 Combat Training Team Doctrine). You can research all of the Levels, but get none of the applied doctrines until you get this 'at war' event.
This will require the creation of a specific technology that is the requirement for all 1st stage War Experience techs (i.e., those that just require "Early War Experience Analysis" and a pre-war applied doctrine like "Point Anti-Air Defense Doctrine").
Any thoughts?
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Re: Re: Tech and Doctrine Costs
Sorry I don't like this for the following reasons and Human player exploits:
1) Imagine the US not entering WWII until 1943, 1946, etc. Are you saying that they can NEVER gain this doctrine. Realisticlly look at the US doctrine advances between Vietnam and the Gulf War . The Human exploit is to pick on a weak country to get the "at war" and never annex.
2) Is Switzerland or mighty Sweden running around with Pre-war technology today?
3) What if we were able to "fix" the WE problem and WWII was delayed till 1944 or so as the German Navy wanted?
Sorry I don't like this for the following reasons and Human player exploits:
1) Imagine the US not entering WWII until 1943, 1946, etc. Are you saying that they can NEVER gain this doctrine. Realisticlly look at the US doctrine advances between Vietnam and the Gulf War . The Human exploit is to pick on a weak country to get the "at war" and never annex.
2) Is Switzerland or mighty Sweden running around with Pre-war technology today?
3) What if we were able to "fix" the WE problem and WWII was delayed till 1944 or so as the German Navy wanted?