Captured tanks and the Firefly

[Baane]

Frankly, I understand that this game is quite late in development and that this feature is not likely to be changed. The assets for a German firefly were already paid for, so they're going to be used no matter what. However, I just feel like pointing this out because it bugs me.

I am disappointed with this decision to have the captured Firefly as a highlighted unit for the German armored division. I understand from the article that recently came out, that it is intended to provide the German armored division with an early-game unit. The thing is, the Firefly represents one of the pinnacles of British motorized antitank firepower, having come online just in time for Normandy. How many chances, by the time of this game's settings, have the Germans had to capture Fireflies? Much less, a substantial number of them? How good is it for gameplay that the Germans should have ready access to one of the star units of the Allies during this campaign?

But shoving all that aside, let's focus on the intended role of the unit.

In the 'Early phases,' which is where this thing is intended to operate, I am lead to believe that the field is primarily dominated by infantry, light tanks, armored cars, and other such thin-skinned vehicles. All of these threats can be more than dealt with by captured French armor from the earlier French campaign, which were historically used quite extensively in the theater. Vehicles such as the various Hotchkiss tanks, and the Panzerkampfwagen 35-S 739(f), would be more than capable of defending themselves against low-caliber guns common to these units (37-mm, 2-pounder) and fighting back with their own low-caliber guns.

Plus, it would be neat to see these early war French tanks and add a lot of character to the Germans. If they, indeed, are included, then why do the Germans need something like the Firefly to fill their roster for the early game?

 

[Person012345]

How is a firefly an early game (phase 1 and 2?) unit? I could see it in phase 2 maybe, as an expensive phase 2 unit I guess but not phase 1. I also agree that having German Fireflies will dilute the character of BOTH sides. I get that units were captured but I'd much prefer those to be kept to an absolute minimum. It's not interesting when both teams are using a bunch of the same equipment

 

[Baane]

How is a firefly an early game (phase 1 and 2?) unit? I could see it in phase 2 maybe, as an expensive phase 2 unit I guess but not phase 1. I also agree that having German Fireflies will dilute the character of BOTH sides. I get that units were captured but I'd much prefer those to be kept to an absolute minimum. It's not interesting when both teams are using a bunch of the same equipment

It was indicated here. I should have specified it in the OP:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/steel-divi...ormandy-44-units-phases-multiplayer-divisions

Alternatively, you can take control of the German 21st Panzer Division, one of Rommel’s divisions that spent the first two years of the war in Africa, and the only Panzer division to engage Allied forces on the first day of the battle. Like every division in Steel Division: Normandy 44, the 21st Panzer Division has an ace in the hole: a captured US Sherman Firefly tank. “As it is an armoured division,” says Le Dressay, “we’ve got a lot of slots in armoured and tank units. We’ve got a maximum of 36.” However, in the first phase of the battle however, we only have two slots for armoured units - this is the same phase where infantry-led divisions like the 101st excel - and Germany lack decent light tanks to use at this stage of the fight. Enter the captured US Sherman Firefly, which should provide the 21st with a helping hand during Phase A without wasting two valuable Armoured slots that could be essential later on.

Some of this sets off my amateur historian senses. There's a lot of suspect information here, including the 'U.S. Firefly' bit. That's just erroneous.

 

[Spielführer]

What about Cuckoo the british captured Panther?

 

[Ulatersk]

Uh, american Firefly tank from Africa for early phase?

There is a lot wrong with that sentence. We should wait for Mad Mat to correct this, because I am sure that is a mistake.

 

[Baane]

It didn't say the Fireflies were from Africa.

 

[Graphic]

The German is a crafty one

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/27-images-captured-sherman-tanks-german-hands.html

__________________________________________

If it's a historical fact that this division captured this Firefly, then it belongs in the TO&E as much as anything, and more than somethings even (M22 Locust).

 

[Baane]

I think everyone here is well aware of the existence of captured Fireflies. However, I restate: The issues I have with it is its placement as an early-mid game unit, its overlap with what should be a keystone unit of the Commonwealth armored divisions, and the fact that there are other units available that can fill the role of early-game German light tanks. Those being, captured French tanks from the Battle of France, which have generally superior armor to scout cars and the like while also having small caliber guns.

 

[Graphic]

I think everyone here is well aware of the existence of captured Fireflies. However, I restate: The issues I have with it is its placement as an early-mid game unit, its overlap with what should be a keystone unit of the Commonwealth armored divisions, and the fact that there are other units available that can fill the role of early-game German light tanks. Those being, captured French tanks from the Battle of France, which have generally superior armor to scout cars and the like while also having small caliber guns.

Judging by the screenshot of the deck builder with France, where you can take two M10A1s per card in Phase A, you can get a lot of things (maybe even everything) in Phase A, but you'll only get one or two per card instead of half a dozen. I don't think the German Firefly is some unique case.

And to be fair, you did take issue with Germany having the Firefly at all, and questioned whether it's even realistic that they'd captured some

I understand from the article that recently came out, that it is intended to provide the German armored division with an early-game unit. The thing is, the Firefly represents one of the pinnacles of British motorized antitank firepower, having come online just in time for Normandy. How many chances, by the time of this game's settings, have the Germans had to capture Fireflies?

 

[Baane]

I'm having to wonder what the point of these time-locked 'phases' is, then. They don't really model the 'ebb and flow of historical battles,' and if you can field everything anyway, it just seems like an arbitrary time-waster.

 

[Graphic]

I'm having to wonder what the point of these time-locked 'phases' is, then. They don't really model the 'ebb and flow of historical battles,' and if you can field everything anyway, it just seems like an arbitrary time-waster.

Consider that an M10A1 costs 120 points, and you might get 70 points per minute in Phase A as an armored division (both based on existing screenshots). If you want to field tanks, that's a significant amount of time you're doing absolutely nothing while you could be fielding half a dozen scout cars and infantry squads. It's a trade-off, like every other decision in Wargame. You're certainly not going to see any armored hordes in Phase A, with the price/income issue and having only a couple to field even if you twiddle your thumbs for five minutes.

 

[Baane]

If the expense of these units is a sufficient deterrent to using them in the early game, what are the hard-locked phases for? Again, seems like an arbitrary time waster that doesn't accomplish what it's setting out to do.

Either way, we're getting off topic.

 

[Graphic]

If the expense of these units is a sufficient deterrent to using them in the early game, what are the hard-locked phases for?

There are different income rates in each phase based on what type of division you have. Infantry divisions get a lot more in Phase A than armored ones for example, and you'll get only 1/3 the amount per card in Phase A vs. Phase C. So you decide if you want to make a gamble with having a couple tanks really early, or have a bunch later when you've saved up. Without the phase system, it's no different from Wargame where you can start the game with dozens of cheap tanks if you want because the number per card is the number per card and there's nothing holding back income at the start.

You should read more about the game.

 

[WinTurkey]

I'm having to wonder what the point of these time-locked 'phases' is, then. They don't really model the 'ebb and flow of historical battles,' and if you can field everything anyway, it just seems like an arbitrary time-waster.

They stop the Wargame meta of both sides spending all of their initial points on a large army which they then fast-move in a big convoy down the highway to the center of the map in a mad dash to capture the urban areas. This results in both sides smashing against one another like waves, lots of initial destruction with the winner getting a tenuous grasp of a key map location and the loser having to wait for a trickle of points to let him begin to gradually reinforce his army and either try to chip away at the enemy defenses or build up for another push.

 

[Baane]

There are different income rates in each phase based on what type of division you have. Infantry divisions get a lot more in Phase A than armored ones for example, and you'll get only 1/3 the amount per card in Phase A vs. Phase C. So you decide if you want to make a gamble with having a couple tanks really early, or have a bunch later when you've saved up. Without the phase system, it's no different from Wargame where you can start the game with dozens of cheap tanks if you want because the number per card is the number per card and there's nothing holding back income at the start.

You should read more about the game.

The official site for the game also indicates, in no uncertain terms, that units 'unlock' over time as the phases occur.

https://www.paradoxplaza.com/steel-division-normandy-44
http://www.steeldivisiongame.com/

Both sites have this to say on the matter:

Battles rage over three distinct phases, where different units unlock over time, mimicking the movements of real-world armies and adding variety to the ever-changing theatre of war.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...44-unit-vehicle-and-feature-overview.1004094/
This thread has this to say about the issue:

In the earlier phases, only light units will be available.
This gives light tanks & vehicles, such as Stuarts or German SPWs, a much greater role for, for some time, they will mostly fight among themselves.
And while the game unfold and move to the next phases, heavier units gets unlocked.

You should read more about the game. And perhaps check your tone while you're at it.

They stop the Wargame meta of both sides spending all of their initial points on a large army which they then fast-move in a big convoy down the highway to the center of the map in a mad dash to capture the urban areas. This results in both sides smashing against one another like waves, lots of initial destruction with the winner getting a tenuous grasp of a key map location and the loser having to wait for a trickle of points to let him begin to gradually reinforce his army and either try to chip away at the enemy defenses or build up for another push.

You can avoid that through economy and making recon/advance units legitimately worth the investment. Having units be hardlocked at phases is just an arbitrary time-waster that artificially restricts the player, in the name of 'realism.' The kicker here, of course, is that it's not realistic in the slightest.

Again, however, getting off-topic.

 

[keynes2.0]

Seems like a unicorn.

This gives light tanks & vehicles, such as Stuarts or German SPWs, a much greater role for, for some time, they will mostly fight among themselves.

Feels kinda wrong to me that German SPWs would need to fight light tanks to have a role. Those things were the most potent anti-tank weapon in the German arsenal.

 

[Graphic]

The official site for the game also indicates, in no uncertain terms, that units 'unlock' over time as the phases occur.

https://www.paradoxplaza.com/steel-division-normandy-44
http://www.steeldivisiongame.com/

Both sites have this to say on the matter:

Battles rage over three distinct phases, where different units unlock over time, mimicking the movements of real-world armies and adding variety to the ever-changing theatre of war.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...44-unit-vehicle-and-feature-overview.1004094/
This thread has this to say about the issue:

In the earlier phases, only light units will be available.
This gives light tanks & vehicles, such as Stuarts or German SPWs, a much greater role for, for some time, they will mostly fight among themselves.
And while the game unfold and move to the next phases, heavier units gets unlocked.

You should read more about the game.

I've read all this. Because I've read all this and seen all the screenshots, as opposed to you who hasn't, I'm aware of contradictions that indicate that the German Firefly isn't the only tank available in Phase A. If you'd consumed all available information like I have, you wouldn't have proceeded on the false assumption that it's the only tank in Phase A. No one has perfectly clear information yet which is why there's some contradictions but you were missing some that lead you to make a false assumption. The original post clearly indicated that you haven't seen the deck building screenshot at least.

And perhaps check your tone while you're at it.

You're projecting, buddy. There's no tone here but what you bring to it. You are missing information so I advised you to seek it out. Do or don't, in the end it's not my problem.

 

[Baane]

Seems like a unicorn.



Feels kinda wrong to me that German SPWs would need to fight light tanks to have a role. Those things were the most potent anti-tank weapon in the German arsenal.

To be fair, the term "SPW" may indicate something other than a StuG. Marders, perhaps? Halftrack-mounted antitank guns? Either way, eith the kind of equipment we're given the impression of being in the early game, a 17-pounder is sort of cosmic-levels of overkill.

 

[Baane]

I've read all this. Because I've read all this and seen all the screenshots, as opposed to you who hasn't, I'm aware of contradictions that indicate that the German Firefly isn't the only tank available in Phase A. If you'd consumed all available information like I have, you wouldn't have proceeded on the false assumption that it's the only tank in Phase A. No one has perfectly clear information yet which is why there's some contradictions but you were missing some that lead you to make a false assumption. The original post clearly indicated that you haven't seen the deck building screenshot at least.

You are assuming that I have not seen the screenshot. I, in fact, have. However, initial gameplay impressions and posts from staff members indicate contradicting information. Given the state of this industry for te better part of two decades, do you really trust initial screen shots? Really?

The only difference here is what you are selecting to put your faith in. I am leaning more towards early first impressions of the current game available to reviewers, and the repeated statements of staff members. You are trusting a single screen shot. Neither of which are 100% reflections of how the game will be at release, granted, but I will trust what is repeatedly stated by both reviewers and staff members over a screenshot from an unknown build of the game.

You're projecting, buddy. There's no tone here but what you bring to it. You are missing information so I advised you to seek it out. Do or don't, in the end it's not my problem.

Sure.

 

[Lumpy3]

I think heavier vehicles being available in phase A are supposed to represent vehicles that happened to be in the area at the start of the conflict, where you get more "reinforcements" in the form of more income and more units per phase as the battle goes on.

This would represent first contact with reinforcements being called in as advertised