"Cardinal Richelieu"

[magistairs]

A paradox i am reading in this thread is that english native speakers are defending an english centric way of naming characters, while Paradox has already taken steps to present name of countries, cultures and provinces with their relevant original cultural names.

Why should a perfectly legitimate complaint at the naming of a historical character with his title rather than his given name create such a discussion?

Its like calling every Pope «The Pope» instead of their actual name.

Precisely, it's not a big deal but it looks like the devs chose to use endonyms as much as possible, and even if it becomes totally ununderstanble for non native speakers of each specific country (names of the parliaments and the estates)

And in the case of French names, all the other ones use "de"

So this is a double exception and it doesn't have a real reason to be

 

[magistairs]

I don't know! But I think people do prefer to use the name of their land (more prestigious indeed).
Also, I'm not sure that the name du Plessis comes from a place. And in France "lord" is not really a title.
Things appear to be quite complex, btw.
For those interested in the subject (it's in French, though): https://shs.cairn.info/revue-annales-de-demographie-historique-2016-1-page-13?lang=fr#re3no3

Apparently it is, there are many places named "Le Plessis" in France but they are small villages or even just sinple places, so Richelieu, which is a fief, a land linked to a feudal position/title, is more prestigious

I just thought the Cardinal title was linked to this land but as someone else said, the family of the Cardinal was already "lord" of Richelieu

 

[TheDeaconBosco]

100%, de Valois, du Guesclin, etc are all place names which became family names

For the Cardinal it's du Plessis and at the time of his life Richelieu is just a place, but I'm quite sure nowadays "Richelieu" exists as a family name by the same evolution

It's difficult to imagine for you but "lieu" means "place" so this name in particular sounds weird as a family name

"John, Cardinal of Richplace" -> "John Richplace", they both work but sound very different

Non, je t'assure que je n'ai pas trop de problème à l'imaginer.

As far I've looked, Richelieu doesn't appear to have become a notably spread out surname, but that is probably to circumstance and random luck rather than anything else.

I don't think the Devs will change the Good Cardinal's name however, because as others mentioned, it really how the English speaking world remembers him as.


I think what you may want to ask for to is to ensure he has the particle in the French localisation.

 

[hermithill]

Apparently it is, there are many places named "Le Plessis" in France

Yes it is a frequent toponym, but I'm not sure that the name du Plessis of Richelieu comes from a particular place (at some point probably, though, but in the past)

 

[magistairs]

Yes it is a frequent toponym, but I'm not sure that the name du Plessis of Richelieu comes from a particular place (at some point probably, though, but in the past)

Yes in the past otherwise we would know which "Le Plessis" is the one of Armand Jean

Same as Dubois, Dupont, etc... so really just a family name and not a title's name (although aristocratic)

 

[Melville]

We've seen previously that Genghis Khan is named Činggis Khān in the game, so it's a bit inconsistent in my opinion to use the more widely known Cardinal Richelieu here.
It should either be Cardinal Richelieu and Genghis Khan, or Cardinal de Richelieu and Činggis Khān.

 

[Bawhoppen]

Wish we had a nickname system for this

 

[ArVass]

Btw I'd like to remind you that this entire discussion is essentially about how to localize two bits of spelling in an event, once in the event title and once in the text, his actual name in the game as a character is Dr Armand du Plessis anyway, likely with the title Cardinal attached sometimes.

 

[magistairs]

Btw I'd like to remind you that this entire discussion is essentially about how to localize two bits of spelling in an event, once in the event title and once in the text, his actual name in the game as a character is Dr Armand du Plessis anyway, likely with the title Cardinal attached sometimes.

Thank you for reminding us that the game is literally unplayable :/

 

[FleetingRain]

It 100% should be Cardinal de Richelieu.

...but "Cardinal Richelieu" is already established in English, so we can go with that.

We've seen previously that Genghis Khan is named Činggis Khān in the game, so it's a bit inconsistent in my opinion to use the more widely known Cardinal Richelieu here.
It should either be Cardinal Richelieu and Genghis Khan, or Cardinal de Richelieu and Činggis Khān.

Oh yeah, good point. I think they once said there'd be a game rule to choose how the localization works?

 

[P.Quirinius]

Btw I'd like to remind you that this entire discussion is essentially about how to localize two bits of spelling in an event, once in the event title and once in the text, his actual name in the game as a character is Dr Armand du Plessis anyway, likely with the title Cardinal attached sometimes.

If we go on for a few dozen more pages maybe we will get a game rule for the cardinal specifically just like we got for Byzantium.

 

[Captain Frakas]

so really just a family name and not a title's name (although aristocratic)

The nobility -and the royal family- didn't really had families names up to the law of the 6th of Fructidor, 2nd year of the French Republic, albeit the monarchy, especially under the reign of Henry the Second, with the art. 9 of the order given in Ambroise the 26th of March, 1555 before Easter (Easter starts the year 1556):

« Pour eviter à la ſupposition des noms & armes, deffenſes sont faictes à toutes perſonnes de ne changer leurs noms & armes, ſans avoir noz lettres de diſpense & permiſſion, sur peine d'eſtre pugnis comme faulſaires & d'eſtre exauthorez de tout degré & privilège de nobleſſe. »​

and under the reign of Lewis the Thirteen, with the art. 211 of the order of the 15th of January 1629:

« ENIOIGNONS à tous gentils-hommes deſigner du nom de leurs familles, & non de celuy de leurs Seigneuries, en tous actes & contracts qu'ils feront, à peine de nullité deſdits actes & contracts. »​

attempted to have a greater control on the ability by nobles to change their preferred name at will (when they receives personnally a new title, a new land, or when their parents or their spouse receive so), by mending the nobility to ask first to the king, before changing its names. Nobiliary names were what we call nowadays usual names, rather than the strict and immutable family name that the French Revolution enforced for all, starting with the first of the French, Lewis, by naming him: “le citoyen Louis Capet”.

The art. 1 and 2 of the law of the 6th of Fructidor fixed the given names and the family names:

« Aucun citoyen ne pourra porter de nom ni de prénom autres que ceux exprimés dans son acte de naissance : ceux qui les auraient quittés seront tenus de les reprendre. »
« Il est également défendu d’ajouter aucun surnom à son nom propre, à moins qu’il n’ait servi jusqu’ici à distinguer les membres d’une même famille, sans rappeler des ramifications féodales ou nobiliaires. »
​

 

[magistairs]

The nobility -and the royal family- didn't really had families names up to the law of the 6th of Fructidor, 2nd year of the French Republic, albeit the monarchy, especially under the reign of Henry the Second, with the art. 9 of the order given in Ambroise the 26th of March, 1555 before Easter (Easter starts the year 1556):

« Pour eviter à la ſupposition des noms & armes, deffenſes sont faictes à toutes perſonnes de ne changer leurs noms & armes, ſans avoir noz lettres de diſpense & permiſſion, sur peine d'eſtre pugnis comme faulſaires & d'eſtre exauthorez de tout degré & privilège de nobleſſe. »​

and under the reign of Lewis the Thirteen, with the art. 211 of the order of the 15th of January 1629:

« ENIOIGNONS à tous gentils-hommes deſigner du nom de leurs familles, & non de celuy de leurs Seigneuries, en tous actes & contracts qu'ils feront, à peine de nullité deſdits actes & contracts. »​

attempted to have a greater control on the ability by nobles to change their preferred name at will (when they receives personnally a new title, a new land, or when their parents or their spouse receive so), by mending the nobility to ask first to the king, before changing its names. Nobiliary names were what we call nowadays usual names, rather than the strict and immutable family name that the French Revolution enforced for all, starting with the first of the French, Lewis, by naming him: “le citoyen Louis Capet”.

The art. 1 and 2 of the law of the 6th of Fructidor fixed the given names and the family names:

« Aucun citoyen ne pourra porter de nom ni de prénom autres que ceux exprimés dans son acte de naissance : ceux qui les auraient quittés seront tenus de les reprendre. »
« Il est également défendu d’ajouter aucun surnom à son nom propre, à moins qu’il n’ait servi jusqu’ici à distinguer les membres d’une même famille, sans rappeler des ramifications féodales ou nobiliaires. »
​

Sure! I did not want to make it too complex but correct me if I'm wrong:

What I meant is that Royal houses' names are closer to family names than to noble titles because they are "patronymes" in French, there is no other translation other than "family name" in English but, as far as I understand the subtlety, the difference is that it applies to house names since it is "the name transfered to the lineage through the father"

It starts when a cadet receives a fiefdom, a noble title, eg. the County of Valois, which gives its name to the cadet branch, but after many years the house name stays even if the title is not held anymore


Another example maybe, because it is a 100% analogy with the Cardinal:

Lafayette, in full Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de La Fayette. His family name was du Motier and his title de La Fayette, but later de La Fayette or even Lafayette was a family name.


All of this is about the "lifetime" of the title/name, all the French aristocratic names (with "de") were a title in the beginning and at some point became more linked to the family than to the title.

 

[Ekyman]

A paradox i am reading in this thread is that english native speakers are defending an english centric way of naming characters, while Paradox has already taken steps to present name of countries, cultures and provinces with their relevant original cultural names.

Why should a perfectly legitimate complaint at the naming of a historical character with his title rather than his given name create such a discussion?

Its like calling every Pope «The Pope» instead of their actual name.

I mean I don't really care if it's Richelieu or de Richelieu. There's definitely good arguments for consistency with the rest of the game. The point of my post was just that the arguments that "Cardinal Richelieu" is wrong were misguided, because it's 100% a correct version of the name in English. The debate shouldn't be about which forms of his name are right or wrong but about the merits of consistency and cultural authenticity vs familiarity and the game's display language.

I think if the original post had focused purely on the inconsistency with other names in-game there'd be less people defending it, but the focus on grammar and the analogy to "King France" means people come out to defend the point of "Cardinal Richelieu" being the standard form in English.

 

[magistairs]

Anyway it looks like most people agreed, maybe we could have a dev confirming if they will stick to the English form or use the endonym, otherwise we'll just see how it is at launch and play our literally unplayable beloved Kingdom of France anyway

 

[Siegfriedfr]

I mean I don't really care if it's Richelieu or de Richelieu. There's definitely good arguments for consistency with the rest of the game. The point of my post was just that the arguments that "Cardinal Richelieu" is wrong were misguided, because it's 100% a correct version of the name in English. The debate shouldn't be about which forms of his name are right or wrong but about the merits of consistency and cultural authenticity vs familiarity and the game's display language.

I think if the original post had focused purely on the inconsistency with other names in-game there'd be less people defending it, but the focus on grammar and the analogy to "King France" means people come out to defend the point of "Cardinal Richelieu" being the standard form in English.

My point is, I think this particular chafacter should be named "Armand du Plessis, Cardinal of Richelieu", and not just his <title>.