Cavalery lose their charge

[DrakenLord]

Select a unit of cavalery, order them to run in a direction. Wait for the bar to charge to full, then order them to go to the same place, or to the same direction. They will instantly lose their bar...

I believe the desired behavior should be that as long as they are running in the same direction, they should keep their bar... Since the charge bar is relative to their speed. Starting from there, the bar should be reduced by the angle of the new order. For example if you order them to turn 30 degrees left, they should lose (30 / 180) * 100 = 16% of their charge. If you order them to run in the opposite direction ( 180/180*100 = 100%) they lose 100% of their charge. And if you order them to turn 90 degrees (90/180*100) they should lose 50% of their charge.

Since Neocore already pointed out they added Physix to the battles it would make sens for charge to work this more realistic and intuitive way.

 

[Neocore_Kate]

Actually, they do keep their charge if you give the new orders with holding down the right mouse button (with that you can also set the direction they should face when they are there) - it does not work if you order them to attack an enemy unit, for that you can only use single or double clicking (not holding the button). Btw you can trample enemies with cavalry if you send them charging behind an enemy unit (and not clicking on the unit). And they do count the angle of their turn, and the charge will only be completely lost if you order them to the opposite direction.

If you keep clicking on the enemy unit (or anywhere on the battlemap) - your cavalry will lose their charge because you just ordered them to walk instead of running - there's no charging if they walk of course. Because single click is always walking, double click is always running - but if you keep hitting that button that will make them walk for sure after a while.

 

[DrakenLord]

I will try it when i get home, but wouldn't holding right click make them walk? (since you need to double click to make them run)

 

[Neocore_Kate]

If you hold it and move the mouse a bit to set the direction they should face they will keep their charge.

 

[unmerged(411739)]

This trampling is nice! Was it in the first game? I never saw it I don't think - was that just my mistake or is it new?

 

[Neocore_Kate]

It was in the first game too Worked exactly the same way.

 

[unmerged(411739)]

Damn

 

[wakko2k]

Btw you can trample enemies with cavalry if you send them charging behind an enemy unit (and not clicking on the unit).

That seems like a odd design choice... why wouldnt the cavalry smash through into the enemy lines (tremble them) if you order them to attack them? Is this a part of the tutorial btw?

If I order my cavalry to attack a unit, I would think its pretty obvious they would smash into them with a rather big impact and not just stop right in front of them. But I have to actually order them to basically run past the enemy to make them charge into them and not just stop when they arrive at them? And if I'm chasing a moving unit from a pretty far distance, then I have to guess where my cavalry is supposed to charge? Because double right clicking on a enemy unit doesnt actually make them charge? I'm confused... thats very odd and should probably be mentioned somewhere, if not changed altogether to the more obvious

 

[DrakenLord]

I agree with wakko, it would be more player friendly and easier to use if the cavalry unit would simply charge past the unit you order them to attack automaticly.

 

[Clegane76]

I think it works perfectly as it is, especially when you consider what cavalry charge actually is and was on the field of battle.

In terms of game mechanics, sometimes you WANT your cavalry to get 'stuck in' and actually engage in the melee. In those cases, you attack an enemy. Sometimes you want to keep your cav out of the fight, but allow them to have a momentum impact from charging, so they charge -through- the enemy (if they have enough momentum), come out on the other side of their broken line, and regroup to charge again. Or, more historically, get cornholed by Numidian counter-chargers waiting in reserve. Since the designers have to offer a choice between charging into and charging through, they may as well keep the mechanics for charging into the same as every other melee unit's, even if you use that utility less than trampling with cav. Isn't the same mechanic actually used in most TW games? I know Europa Barbarorum uses it and I thought I remembered using the same mechanic with my Takeda cavalry in Shogun 2...maybe not.

And yes, wakko, if you're chasing a unit you just chase after them rather than coordinate a specific charge vector. A cavalry charge was a very specific maneuver that consisted of far more than "Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!" You couldn't just maintain 'charging pace' indefinitely and count on efficiently smashing everything to bits. A charge was a sudden forced, SHORT, highly motivated burst of speed designed primarily to disrupt and break enemy lines without actually doing a ton of damage to anything other than morale. It wasn't typically used in a sustained chase fashion nor was it typically used as a delivery vehicle to put the cavalry into melee confrontations.

We can't all be Riders of Rohan, even in Britannia.

 

[wakko2k]

Ah, right... this should be mentioned in the tutorial or a loading screen tip or something. When I played the demo and the cavalry was charging down a hill to attack some units, and they just stop in front of them, then I'd think that the cavalry isnt able to smash through the lines when charging. Because it would make sense that a downhill charging cavalry unit would smash through their lines and not just put down the handbreak as fast as they encounter the enemy

Still think it could have been made a bit more obvious

 

[Clegane76]

Ah, right... this should be mentioned in the tutorial or a loading screen tip or something. When I played the demo and the cavalry was charging down a hill to attack some units, and they just stop in front of them, then I'd think that the cavalry isnt able to smash through the lines when charging. Because it would make sense that a downhill charging cavalry unit would smash through their lines and not just put down the handbreak as fast as they encounter the enemy

Still think it could have been made a bit more obvious

I absolutely do not disagree with you that the whole 'cavalry mechanic' could have used more explanation, either in the manual, the tutorial, the tooltips, or an FAQ. I'll admit that the only reason I knew how to utilize them mechanically in this game and in KA1 was because I used them the exact same way in Europa Barbarorum. You're absolutely correct that they are something of a 'precision piece' and need to be used correctly and that the mechanics for that usage are a bit counter-intuitive.

 

[wakko2k]

I dont know if I can think of a reason to not want my cavalry to charge into the enemy unit and start attacking them instead of just pull down the handbreak and stop in front of the enemy units and get surrounded by them. I can see how the "running through" mechanic will work. But if I have to order them to first "run through" them and then when they're through half of the enemy units I have to order them to actually "attack" the enemy unit to get a proper "get into the mix" charge, otherwise they just run past them. Then thats just silly imo.

 

[DrakenLord]

I dont know if I can think of a reason to not want my cavalry to charge into the enemy unit and start attacking them instead of just pull down the handbreak and stop in front of the enemy units and get surrounded by them. I can see how the "running through" mechanic will work. But if I have to order them to first "run through" them and then when they're through half of the enemy units I have to order them to actually "attack" the enemy unit, otherwise they just run past them. Then thats just silly imo.

Agreed.

 

[Clegane76]

I dont know if I can think of a reason to not want my cavalry to charge into the enemy unit and start attacking them instead of just pull down the handbreak and stop in front of the enemy units and get surrounded by them. I can see how the "running through" mechanic will work. But if I have to order them to first "run through" them and then when they're through half of the enemy units I have to order them to actually "attack" the enemy unit, otherwise they just run past them. Then thats just silly imo.

Because traditionally, cavalry (especially lighter, non-cataphracted cav) fared very very poorly when 'stuck in' melee combat. Their whole engagement model was built around Momentum-Breakthrough-Regroup-Repeat. It was terribly easy for the horses to be cut out from under them, which left an injured, incapacitated, armored rider flat on his ass in the field of combat, often times buried under a horse weighing over a ton in kit. The role of cavalry in this computer game has been romanticized and powered-up a bit, which is fine since this isn't a historical sim. But they still obviously wanted to keep the original cavalry mechanic intact. Yes it requires a bit more micromanagement than just setting your horses to 'charge' and then letting them pound away at the enemy relentlessly. Cav were never designed or intended for sustained melee engagements.

But the mechanic is still sound, even if it doesn't feel fluid to you. The charge-through/trample mechanic in this game is exactly how cavalry were supposed to be utilized.

 

[wakko2k]

Something else that would be really awesome, is if a few of the riders would jump over the first few lines of enemies. Kinda like in rome - total war! and then start hacking away when they're in the middle of the enemy squadron! Now that is a proper charge! Not just stop right in front of them and get surrounded...

 

[wakko2k]

The charge-through/trample mechanic in this game is exactly how cavalry were supposed to be utilized.

But thats what I've been trying to say! the mechanic didnt work! btw, are royal guards light cav?

Anyway... the cavalry was charging towards some archers downhill, ran for like 30 seconds. But they didnt trample them. They just stopped right in front of them. There was never a trample!

 

[Clegane76]

But thats what I've been trying to say! the mechanic didnt work! btw, are royal guards light cav?

Anyway... the cavalry was charging towards some archers downhill, ran for like 30 seconds. But they didnt trample them. They just stopped right in front of them. There was never a trample!

What? Then either you didn't have enough momentum to break through the line or you weren't clicking on the area behind the target unit. Or there's a technical glitch. Sorry, i must not have clearly understood what you were saying initially.

And yes, Royal Guards are light cav.

 

[wakko2k]

What? Then either you didn't have enough momentum to break through the line or you weren't clicking on the area behind the target unit. Or there's a technical glitch. Sorry, i must not have clearly understood what you were saying initially.

And yes, Royal Guards are light cav.

Oh... wait... so basically (this is starting to confuse me)

to trample the units... you order them to attack behind the units. Then they will attempt to run through them without attacking?

To trample the units and stop to attack them when you've run them over (and you are basically in the middle of them, just standing on top of them) then you order your cav to charge behind them... and then when they're standing on top of them you order them to attack them?

To order them to attack, but pull the handbreak right in front of them, making them stop before they start to trample and then just get surrounded by the enemy units? Then you actually double rightcklick on the enemy units?

Man... this feels very awkward. Sorry I think I might have misunderstood you. Heh

If this is the case however, then I feel like the way you handle the cavalry is very awkward. It would feel more obvious that double rightclick enemy units, would make the cavalry charge, trample, and start attack them when they're on top of them. (like shogun 2 did if I remember correctly)

 

[Clegane76]

Trample only occurs when you charge THROUGH a unit. In order to do the trample damage, you need to target the area behind the enemy unit and have your cav unit charge THROUGH the enemy unit and to the targeted area behind them. That is the only way that your charge bar will mean anything or that you do any trample damage. The charge bar and the trample damage are not considered at all if you're just crashing headlong into a unit, pulling out your swords, and doing battle.

Unless you are targeting the area behind an enemy unit and charging with a full momentum bar THROUGH that unit, then your cav units are nothing more than overcosted infantry units with a good movement speed.

Edit: Actually, let me amend that. If your charge bar is not sufficient to carry you THROUGH the unit but you still try, you will get some partial trample damage, I think. Just not nearly as many casualties as you would yield if you did successfully break through the line.