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unmerged(2456)

Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
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In CK1 4/5 court members simply added one of your stats to your own. This would create problems with balance issues because you could stack the two togther and get ungodly stats. In addition the use of stats made it too compelling for the player to swap out the character for one with the highest stat.

First thing would be to make only the character with the highest stat matter, ie the ruler or the adviser, not both. Thus if your King has 8 Marshal and your Marshal has 6, only the King's score counts. This would make regencies and weak ruler more beholden to their advisers, but a strong ruler could easily maneuver without such worries.

Second, like vassals these court positions generally had some history to them and often a ruler couldn't just chose anyone to replace them. This is true even when one of the characters died. This gives more problems with keeping a highly skilled chancellor to compensate for your lack of diplomatic skills as his skills deteriorate when he develops manic depression. He might have to make a great blunder before you can really kick him out and if his family is powerful then it might have repercussions even then.

Finally, these advisers should get regular pay from the treasury instead of it magically appearing. This could give the ruler a good incentive to fire his steward and not hire a new one if there's no one decent to fill the role and suffer through the other negative consequences, such as probably negative prestige for being seen as too poor (or stingy) to have a fully stocked advisory court.
 
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How about having the inferior character add, say, 25% of his own skill to the superior? Otherwise there would be little incentive for high-stat rulers to keep an advisor in that category at all.
 
How about having the inferior character add, say, 25% of his own skill to the superior? Otherwise there would be little incentive for high-stat rulers to keep an advisor in that category at all.

not realistic, the "inferior" is more likely to worsen the stats of the "superior" than to add to it
 
While I agree that advisors should be hard and costly to change and other things than one stat for each should matter, I don't think a king even very good can efficiently rule a state alone, or at least I don't think that he should be able to rule a state as well as a king with (even very sub-par) advisors.

So I don't support at all the idea to use the ruler or an advisor stat.

About realms stats I'd rather like to see more characters having an importance than fewer, with lesser offices to support the main advisors and more complex formulas using the level of more people, and more than one stat per advisor (if one should matter more than others for each task, all should have some importance).
 
a king can very well rule a state alone with or without advisors if he is talented and charismatic, was proven countless times in history
 
While I agree that advisors should be hard and costly to change and other things than one stat for each should matter, I don't think a king even very good can efficiently rule a state alone, or at least I don't think that he should be able to rule a state as well as a king with (even very sub-par) advisors.

So I don't support at all the idea to use the ruler or an advisor stat.

About realms stats I'd rather like to see more characters having an importance than fewer, with lesser offices to support the main advisors and more complex formulas using the level of more people, and more than one stat per advisor (if one should matter more than others for each task, all should have some importance).

There were different kinds of rulers and how much stats mattered depends on the nature of the realm. The Eastern Roman Empire could get along better with a weak or incompetent emperor than say England, because of the factor of bureacracy. By the high middle ages, the kings of the major Western European kingdoms had their own small armies of notaries, lawyers, and other staffers, many of them clerics (origin of modern English "clerk"). So maybe technology should factor into how much and how well you can rule. As to kinds of rulers, some ruled from horseback while others were more comfortable primarily in a diplomatic capacity or were downright bookish. EU3 models this pretty well with triggered modifiers (like capable administration, etc), which might be a model for CK2. In some cases, the queen or queen mother should be considered automatically as an input on efficiency, whether or not they are officially so. Given the focus on dynasty, maybe rulers related to your primary should have some influence too. Just a jumble of ideas, yes, but maybe I'm going somewhere.
 
While I agree that advisors should be hard and costly to change and other things than one stat for each should matter, I don't think a king even very good can efficiently rule a state alone, or at least I don't think that he should be able to rule a state as well as a king with (even very sub-par) advisors.

So I don't support at all the idea to use the ruler or an advisor stat.

About realms stats I'd rather like to see more characters having an importance than fewer, with lesser offices to support the main advisors and more complex formulas using the level of more people, and more than one stat per advisor (if one should matter more than others for each task, all should have some importance).
Well the previous version led to unbalances and sub-par advisors do more harm than good. Having them always do good is more unrealistic than just sometimes doing more good.

And I'm not saying the king can always effectively rule without advisors or sub-par advisors. I'd say he'd almost certainly be stressed out if he was basically having to run all the positions himself if he was ruling a large realm.
 
What if rulers and advisors stats influence different areas or give different bonuses ?
Fe: Marchals military stats will lowers maintenance and improves military research, while rulers military stats boosts morale and hastens recruitment speed (i really don't like the one click and army is ready idea). Doesn't have to be exactly these but i hope you get the idea.

Good ideas. Maybe based on experience and prestige of the marshal? As to research, the better traveled the marshal, the better ideas should circulate, say he was at Safed in 1260 (random year) when the Mongols invaded. He might then be able to advise the King of France on better light cavalry tactics? Sounds more historically realistic to me but might be hard to code. Then in CK1, there are all those foreign displaced nobles wandering around. My court in Toledo, for a personal story, had a mix of Berbers, Hungarians, Greeks, and the odd Russian and Persian. Imagine the kind of think tank you could put together with a group like that, provided that they don't kill each other in the middle of the council of war? :D
 
Bah. Every great man needs a secretary and even the lack of that doesn't stop his underlings clamouring for preference.

not true, plus most of the time rulers didn't trust anyone else than their own family to handle state matters, sometimes not even them
 
not true, plus most of the time rulers didn't trust anyone else than their own family to handle state matters, sometimes not even them

They can distrust anyone they like but they never could rule alone if only because a king only survives by catering to strong allies. Otherwise they ended up dead.

If anything the court postion's primary function was to elevate those guys that prevent your enemies from stabbing you dead.

In any more complex state there never was a single ruler capable to do it alone simply because the actual power is never that concentrated . I'd want you to list all those plentiful kings without advisors who did everything alone.
 
What I would like instead of realms having only the 4 same stats characters have, based on "the king + one advisor" to see realms have their own (and far more) stats based on more complex formulas using king and several advisors or courtiers base stats and their loyalty level.

For example, to be good at taxing the noble class it may be decided that a stewar need some diplomacy to convince them to pay, in addition to stewardship. Also the loyalty of the steward would be very important for this task as he may be tempted to let some nobles avoid the tax. But for taxing peasants it may be decided that the martial skill of the steward matters (the main problem being protecting the tax collectors when there are riots) while loyalty is less important than cruelty (a too generous steward would be bad at taxing poor men).

So, you have two different formulas for how a steward affect the realm stats, "crown duty efficiency" and "peasant tax efficiency".

The first may be (his stewardship + his diplomacy) x (steward loyalty %) while the second may be (his stewardship + his martial skill) - 20% if generous or similar trait + 20% if cruel of similar trait.

Then there may be two stewards as good in stewardship, but one, completely loyal and good in diplomacy, better at taxing nobles, while the other, cruel and skilled for martial tasks, would be better if you have a big peasanry to tax. And according to the state of your realm it may be better to chose one or the other.

Finally in addition to the king and the main advisor in charge of a task, other advisors, barons, courtiers having minor positions (if more court occupations are added), or even simple courtiers may have an influence too in these formulas (in example having a lot of loyal barons and courtiers with good diplomatic skill may help convince the noble class to pay all the due taxes, while having a feared spymaster may counter-balance the fact your steward is not 100% loyal, as he won't take risks with corruption).

The more different factors have an influence, the less things will be totally controlable and optimizable, unlike in ck1 where you just had to take the advisor with the best stat for each function to have an efficient realm.
 
not true, plus most of the time rulers didn't trust anyone else than their own family to handle state matters, sometimes not even them

No, sorry that is not true at all, rulers hardly dealt with day-to-day business themselvers, they had all kinds of servants/advisors for that. Paradox didn't make up the titles of advisors (except perhaps the spy-master) those were real functions held by real people.

What else do you think a court of 100 or 2,000 persons does in the service of a king or duke ?
 
orgies? :p






now for seriously: I am pretty sure there were rulers without advisors, if it is that important I will ook some up when I got the time
 
Oh yeah, bring it on. I would like to see 100 to 2k people in courts. Would give so much better breeding grounds for the Yber Nation. "We shall call ourselves Arians". I just need bit more power than my trusty Dell can afford at the moment.

I am not talking about having 100 to 2k people in your court in the game. I am talking about the real court of a duke or king.