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Carbon

The Tiger
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Apr 7, 2007
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I think Paradox should recognize its strengths, and in my view, the character system featured in CKII and the POP system featured in Victoria II are the greatest mechanics Paradox has ever made. The mechanics both work so, so well in each respective title, but I can see variations of the system featured in every Paradox game to represent important individuals as well as demographic groups.

As an example, a modified character system in Victoria can represent important individuals such as politicians from each political party, heads of government/state, generals, tycoons, explorers, philosophers, scientists and revolutionaries and can use a simplified trait and attribute system similar to CK2. You wouldn't play as a character like in CK2, you still play as a country, but the characters would still be important players (as it was historically, Bismarck is an excellent example). Characters' opinions of one another can affect international relations; for example, if the US president and the British prime minister have low opinion with one another, it would be more difficult to have stronger diplomatic relations between the two countries.

Another example is using the POP system in Crusader Kings which would represent the demographically larger lower feudal groups such as peasants, merchants and knights. Levies can be drawn from POPs and converting provinces culturally/religiously would be done by converting the POPs in the province slowly until the majority population has changed culture/religion, but minorities will still be important to watch out for.

Most people here can also agree that if Rome II were to come that a character system would work excellently with it, but with a POP system in place to represent the various classes of Roman society would be quite neat as well. Similarly, a POP system in a potential Dark Ages game could be a way to represent migrations.

I can think of many example which is why I believe variations of these 2 mechanics can and should be applied to every future Paradox game. Of course, CK would always have a specialized and more complex character system because characters and dynasties are central to gameplay, whereas POPs would always be more specialized in Victoria titles, but simplified variations of these 2 mechanics can work for virtually every Paradox title.
 
I'd like to see the strengths from each paradox game go into one another too (and I think your right about the pops in Vicky being a huge strength) but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen. Don't get me wrong I'd love to see it happen but I think paradox will more likely chase a bigger playerbase by not overcomplicating their games. People struggle with Vicky as is, hell some even have a hard time understanding EU. Than we also have limitations of the majority of peoples hardware, paradox are still going with 32bit for HOI IV. So I don't expect they will be adding Vicky like PoPs and CKII like character mechanics into EU V for example. Again I'd love to see the best systems from all titles united into one really deep game I'm just not expecting it anytime soon.
 
I think PDS games are complicated enough as they are. There always need to be a balance of 'adding more cool stuff that deepens the experience' vs. 'adding even more stuff that makes the game even more complicated for new players'.
 
Would you say POPs are what make Vicky complicated though? I think it's everything, including industrialization, politics, etc. Paradox certainly knows their niche however, and even if they go for a larger playerbase, they can't streamline their games into the mainstream; they'll always be in the grand strategy niche.

You are both correct in that Paradox has been streamlining their games more and more but Paradox also doesn't want to necessarily simplify their games either. I think a POP/character mechanic can be added to multiple games and not necessarily make things overwhelming to new players if the UI is constructed well and is user-friendly along with a quality tutorial (which to be honest, isn't super difficult, YouTubers do a great job at explaining the games; Paradox can also take lessons from Knights of Honour and its tutorial). To be able to do all of this together however, is easier said than done.

Still, having a POP/character system in Paradox's other games would be really neat.
 
i just wish that some of these features could be hardcoded into the Clausewitz engine as a semi-standard feature that could be utilized in different ways across the PDS franchises. populations might not be important for a world war game, but it could be integral for literally any other time period before or after.
 
Thing is that pops lag a lot and character systems lag alot. Having both of those and a good game beside it would require like, a brand new high-end CPU to even get bad performance. Also the CPU would not be able to do a new "CPU heavy" feature before in a long time (even longer if these systems evolve and get more complicated and therefore even more CPU heavy) meaning that innovation would be hurt. I am not willing to do that sacrifice.
 
pops yes, so that manpower, population, economy have an actual meaning. EU:Rome has a simple yet efffective pop system, that is perfect for that game. Even though having losses in a war does not cause to actually lose freemen or citizens while it should.

Characters also are good but only for Rome and CK2, Victoria and HoI who cares about characters?
 
I don't really care so much about the character system beyond CK2. A very limited import into the Europa Universalis series would be nice, but I wouldn't want much more than the family tree of the monarch of each state, so that the PU mechanic makes more sense. The POPs system, however, is amazing, and needs to be introduced to EU4, although with various alterations.
 
POP system really should be in Europa Universalis, or a more limited version of it. Same with the characters from Crusader Kings in Europa Universalis. At least give us family trees for our monarchs.

Victoria doesn't need characters, it just needs a HOI-like minister system, or maybe something more similar to the planned East vs West minister system, because it isn't a war game like HOI, after all.

The first Crusader Kings had an interesting system where you could grant more power to the various classes in your province like the burghers, clergy, and lesser nobles. It was interesting, but had some annoyances, and of course the AI had no clue how to use it right often leading to further annoyances every time you conquered a county. If tweaked, it could be a nice addition to CK2. CK2 I guess replaced it with the province mayors and bishops and realm taxation/levies law, but it's not quite the same.
 
I think that some representation of population is sorely needed in a game like EU4. Base tax is not exactly perfect as a representation of population, as Europe is overpowered in this regard compared to its actual population. I'm not quite sure that POPs would be the best way to do this, but they would be an improvement on the current system.
 
actually i think POPs were in EU 2 according to some screenshots that are on google images.

also totally agree with nippon and metalinvader.
 
EU4 would be nice with a character system, but i dont think its that big of a deal. A ruler and some advisors pretty much covers most governmental systems in that era. Maybe a little more in depth, however.

On the other hand, Victoria 2 and the newer HOIs desperately need to look back to HOI2 and add a cabinet system with historical ministers. Why they would exclude this level of politics in these eras is beyond me.
 
EU4 would be nice with a character system, but i dont think its that big of a deal. A ruler and some advisors pretty much covers most governmental systems in that era. Maybe a little more in depth, however.

yeah. i'd like to be able to choose/nominate a successor in EU4, at the cost of some current and heir legitimacy and prestige. and maybe the choice of succession laws from ck2 as well. can't have a war of Austrian succession if every generic moron with a royal claim is treated equally.

On the other hand, Victoria 2 and the newer HOIs desperately need to look back to HOI2 and add a cabinet system with historical ministers. Why they would exclude this level of politics in these eras is beyond me.

ever since i saw EvW, i've pretty much been sold on just having a head of state, head of government, and the choice to enact policies that are ideologically applicable. it's less of a hassle for more choices IMO.
 
I guess POP could work in the background - it would be there and influence everything else (manpower, factory efficiency, partisans, etc.) without the need of working on them (it'd work itself out) as time line for HoI is pretty short.
 
EU5 should have pop/character system but ofc less complicated.

all diplomats, colonisators, merchants, missionaries, advisors, generals, adminirals, conquiscadors, rulers and heirs should be characters that you can appoint like in ck2.

pop in EU should have only four types: peasantry, bourgeoisie, clergy, nobility. To prevent excessive reproduction of pops there should be "grain production" modifier in a province that allows you to feed only limited number of population in a province. it grows with tech level.
 
Both systems add a hell of a lot of overhead to the game's processing demands, and you suggest having both in one game? Man, that'd be like a year every half hour.
 
Pop is not what makes Victoria complicated imo. It's the industrialization and market that does. Pop seems fairly simple to me.

Though pop does cause the game to chug in later years, that's an optimization issue.
Well it does make it more complicated. Every time a player wants to do something and can't (because of reasons) it adds an extra wall for a new game. Enough of them and the risk of the gamer saying 'Screw this!' increases.
"I have 3 million people, but I can't build more infantry!" (not enough soldier POP)
"My industry needs clerks but I can't hire them!" (not enough literacy)
"Game is asking me if I want to make this decision that will bother people who want Pluralism, what? where is that? what is that?"
"I want more capitalists but I can't get any!" (not enough literacy, etc)
By the way I didn't make those questions up, it's questions I remember having when I first tried the game. Probably added to the reasons why I decided to abandon the game then as I didn't understand it. Luckily I saw a Youtube video a year or so later that got me curious and decided to give the game another try, and now I love it, but yeah, it certainly adds a lot of complications.

I'm not saying they should simplify it, but definitely they should make it MUCH more self-explanatory, with everything each POP needs/does available when you hover over them (without having to go to some obscure wiki outside the game).
 
I should note that my suggestion for a character + POP system in other Paradox games will be more simple than how the features are used in their respective games.

As an example, Victoria 3 could have politician characters with a simple trait system distinguishing the various bonuses/maluses they can give when assigned as ministers (ex. traits like "Lawyer", "Economist", "Academic", etc.)

I'm also rather against the idea of not implementing features because some users with extremely archaic computers won't be able to handle them. I have a mid-range computer with a pretty old processor and I can still run all Paradox games + mods with relative ease. At what point does Paradox hold back features that would be amazing to implement to accommodate the archaic systems some of their users have? Forgetting about character/POP system for a moment, what about improved graphics and deeper gameplay that would otherwise be implemented? Better optimization should be the priority but withholding features should be the absolute last resort.


Well it does make it more complicated. Every time a player wants to do something and can't (because of reasons) it adds an extra wall for a new game. Enough of them and the risk of the gamer saying 'Screw this!' increases.
"I have 3 million people, but I can't build more infantry!" (not enough soldier POP)
"My industry needs clerks but I can't hire them!" (not enough literacy)
"Game is asking me if I want to make this decision that will bother people who want Pluralism, what? where is that? what is that?"
"I want more capitalists but I can't get any!" (not enough literacy, etc)
By the way I didn't make those questions up, it's questions I remember having when I first tried the game. Probably added to the reasons why I decided to abandon the game then as I didn't understand it. Luckily I saw a Youtube video a year or so later that got me curious and decided to give the game another try, and now I love it, but yeah, it certainly adds a lot of complications.

I'm not saying they should simplify it, but definitely they should make it MUCH more self-explanatory, with everything each POP needs/does available when you hover over them (without having to go to some obscure wiki outside the game).

Eh, these sort of frustrations are rather well explained. Someone getting frustrated in EUIV because they don't have the manpower to build more troops is more of a fault of the player rathern than the mechanic. A simplified POP system would simply increase depth to the mechanics already involved, so instead of an arbitrary manpower value you would have soldier POPs in your country that make up the manpower pool. Deplete enough of them, and you'll need to find another alternative, either by ending the war and abiding your time or drafting more troops while sacrificing other POPs that may improve your economy, etc. Seems like all that does is add more strategy to a strategy game.