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Rex Italia

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Nov 24, 2017
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Nectanebo II was the last native Egyptian pharaoh that ruled Egypt from 360 BC to 343 BC.

Would the Egyptians still use chariot archers during the reign of Nectanebo II?

Were they the only people who used chariot archers in 4th century BC? What about the Indians and Scythians?

Egypt was conquered in 525 BC by Persia, but it regained independence in 380 BC. In 343 BC it was conquered by Persia in the second battle of Pelusium (343 BC).

Note that Egypt was not yet Hellenized yet by Ptolemaic dynasty, so I am asking did ancient Egyptians still use chariot archers.
 
I dont think so. Most chariots at use at this time been rather heavy versions with a different purpose than the old cahriot archer ones.
 
I agree. Chariot archers have fallen out of use around the time Achaemenid Persia conquered Middle East. The last Egyptian chariot archers were probably when Egypt was conquered by Persians, in the battle of Pelusium (525 BC).

But what about Scythians and Indians?

Did the Indians completely replace chariot archers with scythed chariots or did they still use chariot archers in 4th century BC?

What about Scythians, did they have chariot archers or any kind of chariots?
 
Not sure to be honest but I always assumed that scythed chariot comes from Scythians.

Regarding India I am oblivious sadly.
 
Not sure to be honest but I always assumed that scythed chariot comes from Scythians.

Regarding India I am oblivious sadly.
The Britons still used scythed chariots and chariot archers around the time of the Roman Invasions.

I think Scythed Chariots was actually something that had come from Ancient China originally.
 
I think Scythed Chariots was actually something that had come from Ancient China originally.

I don't think there is an agreement currently on where the Scythed ones came from. Some arguments point to Persia as far as I can tell. Chariots would still exist and continue to exist beyond this time period, but I'd wager that they were starting to become replaced during the time period the OP mentioned due to the increased use of crossbows, longer pikes, development of standard cavalry and mounted archery over the Warring States period.
 
I don't think there is an agreement currently on where the Scythed ones came from. Some arguments point to Persia as far as I can tell. Chariots would still exist and continue to exist beyond this time period, but I'd wager that they were starting to become replaced during the time period the OP mentioned due to the increased use of crossbows, longer pikes, development of standard cavalry and mounted archery over the Warring States period.
I remember reading something about a Bronze Age Chinese Ruler sending a Persian King the gift of a scythed chariot through the silk road. I distinctly remember one of Chinese rulers being buried with his chariot and horses, and stablehands. Will research this and post back.
 
I remember reading something about a Bronze Age Chinese Ruler sending a Persian King the gift of a scythed chariot through the silk road. I distinctly remember one of Chinese rulers being buried with his chariot and horses, and stablehands. Will research this and post back.

Oh, no chariots were a big deal in China. The burying part is true enough, as is the fact that they measured strength of countries in numbers of chariots. The scythed one is one I'm not sure on though.
 
I remember reading something about a Bronze Age Chinese Ruler sending a Persian King the gift of a scythed chariot through the silk road. I distinctly remember one of Chinese rulers being buried with his chariot and horses, and stablehands. Will research this and post back.

If it was Bronze Age it wasn’t a Persian King who got the gift. There may have been scythed chariots in Zhou dynasty China but it is hard to imagine who in the middle east they would send gifts to at that time. Before the Achaemenid Persian Empire I don’t know of anyone in the region who could have direct contact with China. The first recorded diplomatic contact is even later during the Parthian dynasty.

Scythed chariots may still have spread from China to the Middle East but not as a gift from one king to another but through imitation between the nomadic tribes. The Scythians for example traded with Zhou dynasty China and had contact with pretty much everyone in the Middle East.
 
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In most cases, chariots were used by civilizations that had not fully developed horseback riding, as the settled city and farm people tried to borrow ideas from the nomadic horse tribes, without having mastered the equestrian arts. Cavalry was a far cheaper and more efficient form of mobile archery platform, and Scythia, Assyria, and various other kingdoms and regions shifted from chariots to mostly cavalry once they managed to integrate them into their armies. The heavy scythed chariots were more of a late gimmick to find a new use for an old idea.

Note that the British Isles were pretty close to a last holdout for chariots, where horseback riding had not yet been developed into a viable alternative.
 
Scythed chariots been used to allow cavalry to break infantry formations. Hardly a gimmick.
 
Chariots were still used by Seleucid armies as late as early 2nd century AD. At least some of the Diadiochi also used them in their initial wars.
 
Scythed chariots been used to allow cavalry to break infantry formations. Hardly a gimmick.

How to survive a charge into a infantry formation (especially a Macedonian phalanx) seems to be a question of debate though. Unless terror makes the formation break up before impact it would seem to imply dead horses and a crashed chariot. If it was a suicide tactic, that may explain why it was relatively rare if not quite a gimmick.
 
How to survive a charge into a infantry formation (especially a Macedonian phalanx) seems to be a question of debate though. Unless terror makes the formation break up before impact it would seem to imply dead horses and a crashed chariot. If it was a suicide tactic, that may explain why it was relatively rare if not quite a gimmick.
Were chariots even used to charge Macedonian pike formations though? Doesn't sound like something that would really be considered a sensible tactical use for them. Not every infantry unit has super-long pikes. Against men with swords or short spears it would be devastating.
 
Were chariots even used to charge Macedonian pike formations though? Doesn't sound like something that would really be considered a sensible tactical use for them. Not every infantry unit has super-long pikes. Against men with swords or short spears it would be devastating.

Well they were used against Alexander and during the Successor wars but I suppose that they could be aimed at the non-phalanx units on the flanks. Even the 3-4 m traditional hoplite spear should be a problem for the horses though unless the scynth was longer than that and they could drive parallel to the infantry formation while out of reach.
 
Well they were used against Alexander and during the Successor wars but I suppose that they could be aimed at the non-phalanx units on the flanks. Even the 3-4 m traditional hoplite spear should be a problem for the horses though unless the scynth was longer than that and they could drive parallel to the infantry formation while out of reach.
Maybe they could attack from an angle to the main front line so that it's more difficult for the infantry to get enough reach from their spears, or armour the front of the horses. These do seem like weapons more useful against lighter, less tightly-packed infantry though rather than heavy Greek troops.

I seem to recall reading about chariots recently but I can't remember where it was. Maybe it was here in a thread about Imperator, or maybe it was on AskHistorians or somewhere else. It was quite detailed though.
 
I found this journal article about the origins of scythed chariots: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4436735
The author argues that they were invented by the Persians as a counter against the Greek hoplite phalanx and would be ineffective against the light infantry the Persians had previously faced in the middle east (due to being shot down by the archers).

Edit: Fixed link so that it doesn't go through my university login page.
 
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I found this journal article about the origins of scythed chariots: https://www-jstor-org.ezp.sub.su.se/stable/4436735?read-now=1#page_scan_tab_contents&seq=5#metadata_info_tab_contents

The author argues that they were invented by the Persians as a counter against the Greek hoplite phalanx and would be ineffective against the light infantry the Persians had previously faced in the middle east (due to being shot down by the archers).
Interesting, so how did they resolve the seemingly-obvious problem with the horses at the front being vulnerable to spears?
 
Interesting, so how did they resolve the seemingly-obvious problem with the horses at the front being vulnerable to spears?

He doesn't touch on it. He mentions the ancient sources that state that they were used against the phalanx and spends his time arguing why it wouldn't have been effective against other military forces the Persians faced. Nothing on why it would be effective against the phalanx.

Tactics of scythed quadrigae differed from those of their predecessors, which were unarmed chariots. The latter usually fought against each other before a clash of the infantry, they secured the flanks of their troops, and they pursued the enemy after the fighting. The unarmed chariots participated to a lesser degree in the frontal shock on the infantry of an opponent. This usually occurred when the enemy had no chariots.16 The scythe-bearing chariots were a device used only to charge the infantry of an enemy. Therefore these chariots were designed not only for a direct shock at the enemy, but also for a psychological effect to frighten him.

Against what opponent could the scythed quadrigae have been devised? Probably not against Asian foot levies consisting mainly of archers, as the outcome of battle was at that time usually decided by cavalry. First, the cavalry charge overwhelmed hostile horsemen, and then they attacked the latter's infantry (Xen. Cyr. 1.4.23; 2.1.6-8). It was different with the charge of the scythed chariots: the fact is that the light-armed infantrymen of the enemy would have shot such a volume of missiles that these would have frightened both drivers and horses, and therefore the chariots would hardly have reached the foe. It is obvious that scythed quadrigae were not created against Asian cavalry consisting mainly of troops equipped with missiles in the mid-Ist millennium B.C. When the quadrigae were charging, the horsemen both dispersed and shot at the chariots. The scythed chariots were invented just to break a close and numerous battle-array of heavy-armed infantrymen. Against such infantrymen cavalry charges were unsuccessful. The infantry could also be efficiently protected from the missiles of light-armed troops. The scythed chariots broke the order of the enemy infantrymen and facilitated actions of their cavalry and infantry. Against what people could the scythe-bearing quadrigae have been used? The Persians relied on two main forces, mounted and foot archers (Hdt. 7.61, 84; Xen. Cyr. 1.2.9; 2.1.1 1; Xen. An. 3.3.7, 15, 4.17). Later on, the Persian satraps also hired Greek mercenary hoplites. Troops of the Eastern Iranian peoples consisted mainly of horsemen (Hdt. 1.71, 215; 7.86; Xen. Cyr. 5.3.24; Curt. 7.7.32; Arr. An. 3.8.4). Mountain tribes of Iran fielded infantry armed with missiles, chiefly archers, as was natural for mountaineers (Xen. Cyr. 5.3.24; Xen. An. 4.1.10, 2.28; Strab. 11.13.6; Curt. 6.5.17). Anatolian people were armed mainly like peltasts (Hdt. 7.72-74, 76-77; Xen. Mem. 3.5.26; Polyb. 5.79.1 1). For the Neo-Babylonian period, the military organisation of the inhabitants of Southern Mesopotamia is little known. But probably it was based on the Assyrian model in many respects. In this model, the centre of a battle order consisted of bowmen under the protection of shield-bearers, and charging chariots and cavalry were placed on both flanks. The two latter bodies of troops were intended to attack the enemy's flanks and rear.17 The archers formed a large part of an Assyrian army. The so-called Display Inscription of Sargon II tells us that the king selected from "the land of Kummuhu" a force of 150 chariots, 1500 horsemen, 20000 bowmen, and 10000 spearmen and shield-bearers and "put them under his control". 18 The ratio of the types of troops is significant; these soldiers were probably garrison troops and hence were intended mainly to defend fortifications, a task in which archers played an important part. The only infantry battle fought by the Assyrians that is known in detail is the battle of the Ulai river (655 B.C.).19 In that battle the Assyrian infantrymen fought in pairs composed of a shield-bearer and an archer. Therefore it seems that, in Mesopotamia, there was no deep massed formation of heavy armed infantry like the Greek phalanx.20 Later, armoured shield-bearers continued to be used (Hdt. 7.63; Xen. An. 7.8.15) and the archers continued to play an important part (Jerem. 4.29; 6.23; 51.3; Aesch. Pers. 56).

In the 6th-Sth centuries B.C., the Indians employed elephants widely in warfare. Because horses were afraid of elephants, it was necessary to train the former for a long time to fight against Indians (Diod. 2.16.18-19; Mahdbhdrata. 7.8.15ff; cf. Bel. Afric. 72; Polyaen. 4.21). But the basic point is that archers occupied an important place in ancient Indian armies (Hdt. 7.65; Strab. 15.1.52; Aff. Ind. 16.6-7; Suid s.v. inneli; kxvKo0paKe;; Phot. Bibl. 72. 49b; Kautilya. Arthasadstra. 10.5).21 In my opinion, there were only two peoples able to fight the Persians with heavy-armed infantry: the Egyptians and the Greeks. The Egyptian foot soldiers were military settlers of Libyan origin, the Calasiries and the Hermotybies (Hdt. 2.163-166, 168; Diod. 1.73). In fighting, they formed a specially deep phalanx protected with their large shields and holding their spears forward (Xen. Cyr. 7.1.30, 33, 39; cf. Plat. Tim. 24b; Xen. An. 1.8.9; Achil. Tat. 3.13; Heliod. 9.20). Xenophon's "Cyropaedia" describes (7.1.29-32) how the Egyptians fought bravely at Thymbrara and even successfully sustained the charge of scythed chariots. However, as I have said above, the "Cyropaedia" is a work of fiction where the description of the battle is based on the author's ideas of tactics.22 Xenophon described the behaviour of the same Egyptian shield-bearers at the battle of Cunaxa (401 B.C.) in a different way. They did not enter into hand-to-hand combat at all, but merely ran away together with other levies of Artaxerxes from the attacking Greeks (Xen. An. 1.8.19). To the degree that the country of the pyramids was at that time under the power of Amyrtaeus, these Egyptian warriors were probably just military colonists who had been introduced by the Persian rulers (Xen. Cyr. 7.1.45). However, the Egyptians did not rely on their own troops, and widely employed Greek and Carian mercenaries from the 7th century B.C. onwards (Hdt. 1.152; Diod. 1.66.12). Besides that, the Greeks could successfully resist the Egyptian troops who had the advantage in number (Xen. Ages. 2.31; Diod. 15.92). Furthermore, I would like to note that the surviving classical sources do not contain, except for Heliodorus' novel (Aeth. 9.14, 20), any evidence of the use of Persian scythed chariots against Egyptian shield-bearers. During the 5th century B.C. the permanent opponents of the Persians were the Greeks. They had at their disposal the firm heavy-armed infantry that was unsuccessfully charged by the Persian horsemen consisting mainly of mounted archers and javelinmen, who were em- ploying hit and run tactics (Hdt. 9.20-25, 49; Diod. 11.30.3; Polyaen. 7.14.3). At the same time, the Greeks made little use of troops with missiles who would be able to repulse the chariots. Therefore, their hoplites were vulnerable to charging chariots. But the main point is that the Hellenes understood the value of a close formation in a battle against individual warriors (Hdt. 6.112; 7.104; Thuc. 1.126.4-6; Xen. An. 1.7.3, 2.18; Cyr. 7.1.22; Diod. 1 1.6.2; Strab. 7.3.17).23 The scythed chariots were designed to destroy this closeness. Moreover, the sources show that the Achaemenid scythed quadrigae were used against the Greek and, later, the Macedonian phalanx.

Here is a link that doesn't require a JSTOR login: http://www.academia.edu/28154364/On_the_Origin_of_the_Scythed_Chariots
 
I agree. Chariot archers have fallen out of use around the time Achaemenid Persia conquered Middle East. The last Egyptian chariot archers were probably when Egypt was conquered by Persians, in the battle of Pelusium (525 BC).

Any particular evidence for chariotry in Saite Egypt? I mean, they probably still used them (though they might be heavier Assyrian style chariots rather than the light two horse ones from New Kingdom), but there doesn't seem to be much on Late Period military beyond the fact that they used lots of foreign soldiers (including Ionian Greeks), essentially foreshadowing the Ptolemaic period already.

Interesting, so how did they resolve the seemingly-obvious problem with the horses at the front being vulnerable to spears?

They probably didn't, neither did they solve the apparent problem of even closely packed heavy infantry simply dodging* them. Scythed chariots might have been spectacular, but they seem to have been overwhelmingly ineffective.

*Xenophon already describes this happening in Anabasis, which is their first well attested usage.

Against men with swords or short spears it would be devastating.

Seleucid chariots failed at Magnesia against Polybian Legions, so hardly. I have a faint recollection of Mithridates VI being successsful with them at some point, which would be their more or less sole success in history.
 
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