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Incompetent

Euroweenie in Exile
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Sep 22, 2003
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Here's an idea for how to make things fun for a player based in China:

Initially, China is split into several states, none of which is called China.

However, suppose one of them gets reasonably large and powerful. They then get the option of triggering the 'Mandate of Heaven' event series, which is a bold gamble for the resurrection of China. Basically, the ruler declares himself Emperor, and demands that all others in China submit to him. This gives the country a lot of BB (as it's a HUGE provocation to other states), a CB on every other Chinese state, and leads to the next events. It also creates great internal problems unless the country was already very 'imperial' in outlook (eg the country's merchants probably would get very annoyed). For convenience we could give the country a 'China-to-be' tag, which would then be used in the later 'Mandate of Heaven' events.

Each Chinese state now has a choice: submit to the 'Emperor' and get vassalised, or refuse and break vassalage in disgust. Foreign states with land in China have the choice of ceding this land to the Emperor or not. The reasons for choosing yay or nea could vary, but suffice to say it should be virtually impossible to get everyone to submit, even vassals who might not like the implications of further submission.

If any Chinese state refuses, the Emperor is obliged to 'crush the rebels' to establish his authority. He can either DOW or give up on the whole idea of really taking over China.

If non-Chinese states refuse, the Emperor can wait until he is ready, and just get cores on the offending provinces. But if the provinces are in the heart of China (and not just minor outlying regions), he will have to take them provinces eventually to show he really has the Mandate of Heaven.

So China-to-be is now at war with several states. They can't make peace with any of them unless it is to vassalise or annex them. (This condition would only apply to human players.) If they do, the sequence terminates. There's also a time limit in which to defeat the rebel states, and the internal rebels (linked to the Emperor's lifespan, though again we can be much more lenient with the AI).

If the China-to-be succeeds in gaining mastery over the Chinese states and drives out the foreigners, only then does it become China, getting a pan-Chinese set of events and leaders, and a big dollop of prestige. The Emperor's mandate is now confirmed in the eyes of the world. If however he fails, his country reverts back to its old tag.

China can now choose with each vassal whether to allow them to continue as 'regional governors' or somesuch (repairs relations), or to incorporate them fully (adds cores over their territory, inherits, modest BB).


To make things simpler, this event chain can only be started by certain countries at fixed dates, basically whenever an exceptionally talented and ambitious monarch rises to the throne. Some countries may even get a few chances over the course of the game. But whenever it happens, it should be a real challenge for the player, requiring a lot of preparation, and cost at least 20BB so that it isn't just a prelude to conquering half the world on the cheap.


Of course there's also the slow way of gradually DAing everyone until the imperial throne is a fait accompli; that would also leave the option of becoming China peacefully if there really are no rivals left. But the way given above is far more impressive, and should be rewarded somehow. One possible reward is that this way gives you a lot of cores at once, whereas DAing all the little states first wouldn't necessarily gives cores on them, and might not actually be much better BB-wise (though the BB would be more manageable, given it could be spread out).


But equally there should be alternative ways to do well without reunifying China. These might depend on which state you play, but could include better colonising potential, better trade, better tech, a different area of cores and so on relative to a unified China. And it would be no bad thing balance-wise if in the absence of human involvement, there's a less than 50/50 chance of China forming over the course of the game, with very little prospect of it for the first few decades at least.


What do people think?
 
In Champa thread I proposed that chineese looks somehow like this at ~1600:
(more legends and description at
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5402656#post5402656
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5402371#post5402371




It doesnt mean that that China looks this kind at 1419, just that they could form this kind. For Champa is important that Canton is important country, it is much stronger that Dai Viet, and controls Yunnan and Guizhou; and that Hui sultunate about so (were historicaly lives chineese muslims minority).


Champa has also interaction events with Lanzhou empire which becomes Hui Sultunate, and Canton (just called this way southern chineese state).

I proposed that they become serious colonisators dominating at western coast of Americas, East Siberia up till small Mongolia, and Indonesia, too.
At midle-late game they steals European colonies (we were talking about some technological stagnation in Europe since midle game) and threatens Europe.

But idea is interesting, but united China would kick game balance or will be cripled with instability and revolts.
 
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Incompetent said:
Here's an idea for how to make things fun for a player based in China:

Initially, China is split into several states, none of which is called China.

I think this model has basically gained the agreement of everyone in the past.

However, suppose one of them gets reasonably large and powerful. They then get the option of triggering the 'Mandate of Heaven' event series, which is a bold gamble for the resurrection of China. Basically, the ruler declares himself Emperor, and demands that all others in China submit to him. This gives the country a lot of BB (as it's a HUGE provocation to other states), a CB on every other Chinese state, and leads to the next events. It also creates great internal problems unless the country was already very 'imperial' in outlook (eg the country's merchants probably would get very annoyed). For convenience we could give the country a 'China-to-be' tag, which would then be used in the later 'Mandate of Heaven' events.

Appropriate title and a concept which would have to be there, much like the French formation events in Europe. But I already see a LOT of work here ... ;)

Each Chinese state now has a choice: submit to the 'Emperor' and get vassalised, or refuse and break vassalage in disgust. Foreign states with land in China have the choice of ceding this land to the Emperor or not. The reasons for choosing yay or nea could vary, but suffice to say it should be virtually impossible to get everyone to submit, even vassals who might not like the implications of further submission.

Yes. Tricky with the foreign owners. Unless these are still local sates, like Champa. But foreign European states would mean a lot of events. :eek:

If any Chinese state refuses, the Emperor is obliged to 'crush the rebels' to establish his authority. He can either DOW or give up on the whole idea of really taking over China.

We'd have to make it that the ai would not ever give in once it has decided to accept the Mandate of Heaven. Only a player should be able to back down. Then again, they wouldn't either. So, let's just say that, once you decide you have the Mandate, there is no turning back while you have the same emperor: you'd lose to much face.

If non-Chinese states refuse, the Emperor can wait until he is ready, and just get cores on the offending provinces. But if the provinces are in the heart of China (and not just minor outlying regions), he will have to take them provinces eventually to show he really has the Mandate of Heaven.

So China-to-be is now at war with several states. They can't make peace with any of them unless it is to vassalise or annex them. (This condition would only apply to human players.) If they do, the sequence terminates. There's also a time limit in which to defeat the rebel states, and the internal rebels (linked to the Emperor's lifespan, though again we can be much more lenient with the AI).

Tough to enforce a not-make-peace requirement as we have no control over the ai offering peace. So, from the outset we'd have to warn players that there will consequence if they accept a peace. And have events to back it up which trigger off not being at war with XXX and XXX still existing. And have inherit which = XXX events in place such that the player gets the whole state once all the provinces are controlled.

If the China-to-be succeeds in gaining mastery over the Chinese states and drives out the foreigners, only then does it become China, getting a pan-Chinese set of events and leaders, and a big dollop of prestige. The Emperor's mandate is now confirmed in the eyes of the world. If however he fails, his country reverts back to its old tag.

I think the conditions could be less than owning the whole 'country'. Once you have absorbed about 60+% surely that would give you sufficient clout.

China can now choose with each vassal whether to allow them to continue as 'regional governors' or somesuch (repairs relations), or to incorporate them fully (adds cores over their territory, inherits, modest BB).

There would definitely need to be several subsequent "How do we administer this place" events over the years as it careens between different extremes of centralization.


To make things simpler, this event chain can only be started by certain countries at fixed dates, basically whenever an exceptionally talented and ambitious monarch rises to the throne. Some countries may even get a few chances over the course of the game. But whenever it happens, it should be a real challenge for the player, requiring a lot of preparation, and cost at least 20BB so that it isn't just a prelude to conquering half the world on the cheap.

I agree that we need this kind of simplification. It's essentially a similar model I used for France, with each of the minors (Orleannais etc) getting an aggressive monarch and leaders to help them claim the throne in a different period. The structure works differently in that any of them can do it by 1520, but their 'best chance' is staggered in 20 year blocks.


Of course there's also the slow way of gradually DAing everyone until the imperial throne is a fait accompli; that would also leave the option of becoming China peacefully if there really are no rivals left. But the way given above is far more impressive, and should be rewarded somehow. One possible reward is that this way gives you a lot of cores at once, whereas DAing all the little states first wouldn't necessarily gives cores on them, and might not actually be much better BB-wise (though the BB would be more manageable, given it could be spread out).

There always needs to be the 'force majeure' option. If you own it all, then who is there left to oppose you.


But equally there should be alternative ways to do well without reunifying China. These might depend on which state you play, but could include better colonising potential, better trade, better tech, a different area of cores and so on relative to a unified China. And it would be no bad thing balance-wise if in the absence of human involvement, there's a less than 50/50 chance of China forming over the course of the game, with very little prospect of it for the first few decades at least.

Perhaps these different outcomes are tied to the method by which you unify. We could model three outcomes (1 = militarist; 2 = trade and colonization 3 = 'good government' with a balance of 1 & 2 ). Working backwards, we tie each of these to a different approach. The 'force majeure' approach, one which essentially sidesteps the Mandate of Heaven event series would result in model 1. The player who works hard to get acceptance and vassals to concede in the Mandate of Heaven events leads to the trade/colonization model (having worked at building China in a way that alienates less the traders/merchants). And the player who does a combination of diplomacy and conquest gets the middle-road 'good government' model.
 
For those of you who might be working on this section of Interregnum, here are a few interesting links.

1. First, someone's personal AH of Zheng He's voyages:

http://www.alternatehistory.com/dtormsen/ZHEastVoyage.htm

2. The forum thread for China in the America's.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=148292

Obviously, our version will be different because our America's is different. But some great ideas there. No-one has yet taken on how to Interregnum-ize the Inca and Chimu. Essentially now they are the same, with a few twists and stuff that is different only after the Europeans arrive. This perhaps is the way it gets Interregnum-ized: the China-minor-that-colonizes arrives and stirs everything up, including the introduction of horses. Even furious rates of breeding shouldn't see sufficient numbers for cavalry for a generation, and no chance of them spreading north until the Europeans arrive anyway, so it would not create a disaster with regards to the current storyline of the Maya/Aztec/Zapotec. But it would mean a tougher area for the Europeans (waaaaay tougher).

The problem would obviously come in the form of the dastardly player, who might chose to explore/conquer Mexico/California instead. Basically, if we allow the Chinese to arrive anywhere in the America's ahead of the Europeans, we have to model its effects very carefully and write tons of new events and supress others. Speaking as the person who will likely review, clarify and integrate all the material ... s-s-s-s-cray.

Matty
 
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MattyG said:
For those of you who might be working on this section of Interregnum, here are a few interesting links.

1. First, someone's personal AH of Zheng He's voyages:

http://www.alternatehistory.com/dtormsen/ZHEastVoyage.htm

2. The forum thread for China in the America's.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=148292

Obviously, our version will be different because our America's is different. But some great ideas there. No-one has yet taken on how to Interregnum-ize the Inca and Chimu. Essentially now they are the same, with a few twists and stuff that is different only after the Europeans arrive. This perhaps is the way it gets Interregnum-ized: the China-minor-that-colonizes arrives and stirs everything up, including the introduction of horses. Even furious rates of breeding shouldn't see sufficient numbers for cavalry for a generation, and no chance of them spreading north until the Europeans arrive anyway, so it would not create a disaster with regards to the current storyline of the Maya/Aztec/Zapotec. But it would mean a tougher area for the Europeans (waaaaay tougher).

The problem would obviously come in the form of the dastardly player, who might chose to explore/conquer Mexico/California instead. Basically, if we allow the Chinese to arrive anywhere in the America's ahead of the Europeans, we have to model its effects very carefully and write tons of new events and supress others. Speaking as the person who will likely review, clarify and integrate all the material ... s-s-s-s-cray.

Matty

Patch 1.09. means that at 1400th it is hard to colonise becouse of lowered success rate. Also Europeans do not go there up till late 1500th.
Also becouse of naval atration (ofcource there is chineese bases at Hawai, only must be some treaty that they are not for one chineese state) it is not easy to move army across ocean and at first there no such gap in tech level.


For Inca. As I proposed in ideas about al-mujaddids, they could have some interactions with midle east muslim countries. Muslim would offer to muslim Inca populations to colonise those grain, fish, wool and marginal provinces at Patagonia and Argentina where Inca could have known provinces, possibly colonies.
So when Sicily takes NAfrica, it creates refugies who goes to Inca (if it happense starting with 1500). Also all those mutazelites create refugies too. Also some muslim countries which do not do colonisation would offer "free" colonists-populations for escaping threat of famine becouse of overpopulation.
So those grain and anothers provs would turn sunni/mutazelite/arabic/maghrebi/berber and this would create some posibilities for getting better tech group, civil wars, splitting of Chimu, Inca made colonisation, religious and culture revolts, later possibility interaction with mutazelite Maya, Cordoba and Morroco (and Mali?) colonies, Champa desires that Inca turn sunni...
Inca could focuss their colonisation on poor south and inland amazone provs becouse they could new them since 1419. Colonists they would get by events and later bu DP...
Sorry for wrong thread.
 
i know this is waaaaaaaay out there, but as possible (MASSIVE) point of Divergence for China and the Far east, what if by some Freak Chance, Gengis Khan had been converted by a Nestorian missionary (or the Mongols otherwise came under Nestorian leadership) leading to the invasion of China/east Asia by a Nestorian army.

Then, Instead of a historic Yuan dynasty ruling the Middle Kingdom, a Nestorian one rules, causing huge dissent. Some areas convert, some do not, creating a ton of cultural divides. Eventually, a poor leader would rise to the throne, and BAM, civil war! When the dust settles, China/the Far east is hugely divided, some areas remaining Nestorian, while others returning to traditional beliefs.
 
Ahmed AA said:
Patch 1.09. means that at 1400th it is hard to colonise becouse of lowered success rate.

I wasn't really refeing to colonization. I was talking abou the introduction of horses and interractions/influences of Chinese in the Americas 100 years before the Europeans arrive. Means a lot of changes to the current files.

Also Europeans do not go there up till late 1500th.

Yes, I know. Why do you raise this point?

Also becouse of naval atration (ofcource there is chineese bases at Hawai, only must be some treaty that they are not for one chineese state) it is not easy to move army across ocean and at first there no such gap in tech level.

1. AI has no attrition.

2. China in vanilla ought to start on about tech 9 for Naval as they had at this stage ocean-going vessels and sufficient navagation techniques.


For Inca. As I proposed in ideas about al-mujaddids, they could have some interactions with midle east muslim countries. Muslim would offer to muslim Inca populations to colonise those grain, fish, wool and marginal provinces at Patagonia and Argentina where Inca could have known provinces, possibly colonies.

Yes, but the idea hasn't received any support, because the Almujadids won't be explorers, or not very early on. Their direction/story is different. Calipah has them focusing on the Med. And either way, this isn't related to pre-1419 Inca/Chimu storyline being different.

So when Sicily takes NAfrica, it creates refugies who goes to Inca (if it happense starting with 1500). Also all those mutazelites create refugies too. Also some muslim countries which do not do colonisation would offer "free" colonists-populations for escaping threat of famine becouse of overpopulation.

I find it inconceivable that North African Muslim refugees would head over to the New World instead of spreading to other parts of Africa. And if Sicily is taking North Africa, then there can't have been an Almujadid Empire to explore the Americas.
 
PostPaintBoy said:
i know this is waaaaaaaay out there, but as possible (MASSIVE) point of Divergence for China and the Far east, what if by some Freak Chance, Gengis Khan had been converted by a Nestorian missionary (or the Mongols otherwise came under Nestorian leadership) leading to the invasion of China/east Asia by a Nestorian army.

Then, Instead of a historic Yuan dynasty ruling the Middle Kingdom, a Nestorian one rules, causing huge dissent. Some areas convert, some do not, creating a ton of cultural divides. Eventually, a poor leader would rise to the throne, and BAM, civil war! When the dust settles, China/the Far east is hugely divided, some areas remaining Nestorian, while others returning to traditional beliefs.

The idea has some merit. It does not need to be Ghengis Khan, but the idea of part of the Khan Horde becoming Nestorian Christian and, upon the return of some of the Horde after Ghengis, establishing a Nestorian region and in the civil war that causes the splintering of China, that one of the proposed Chinese minors is therefore an Altai-led Nestorian state.
 
I suggest some heterogenization of the Chinese states. A Nestorian area, as proposed above, would be interesting, along with a missionary Buddhist state, a Muslim state in the West (which already seems to be in the works) and a long-conquered puppet state of Japan. The rest of the statelets could be more traditionally Chinese and Confucian.

Not only would these be interesting in their own right (IMO), but they'd provide a bigger challenge for a would-be unifier to conquer and maintain.
 
The Chagatai which already are nestorians could represent the nestorian state. I would also want to see a Great Tibetan Empire (suggested Buddhist state) and a moslem state. Then the old empires Yuan (with the mongol dynasty) in north and Song in south. A manchurian state meaning troubles for Yuan would also fit in (a manchurian conquest of northern China in the late 1400s, hmm).
 
Dr Bob said:
To make the war continue could you not set the AI to ferocity = yes for the relevant countries.

D'oh.

Yes, good old rarely-useful ferocity. Perfect for this situation.

Thanks,

Matty
 
It does appear that this concept has arrived at the right time, and that there is an irresistable force to it all.

This week I will be working on the revised set-up in Asia to accommodate Ahmed's work on Champa, so we might want to get serious about the project and establish the boundaries and names for these various Chinese latin/torthodox tech states.
 
MattyG said:
Yes, I know. Why do you raise this point?

Yes, but the idea hasn't received any support, because the Almujadids won't be explorers, or not very early on. Their direction/story is different. Calipah has them focusing on the Med. And either way, this isn't related to pre-1419 Inca/Chimu storyline being different.

I find it inconceivable that North African Muslim refugees would head over to the New World instead of spreading to other parts of Africa. And if Sicily is taking North Africa, then there can't have been an Almujadid Empire to explore the Americas.

1. Just to show that there is no such big problem with chineese at west coast early.

2. Seems that I didnt wrote, but exploration could be done by Cordoba.

3. Africa has unstable situation and bad climate. Most important - these refugies go to be mostly farmers. They left their land to avoid famine, so they go to inca cos inca gives them land where to grow food (grain and fish provs at argentina and patagonia). Afrika has mostly slave and ivory provs which are dirty trade provs, not for escaping famine. There they could even add risk to be sold in slavery. So mutazelite Inca which do not care a much about sunni/mutazelite diferences offers these mostly famine refugies to setle in empty provs.
 
Dear God Ahmed - why would African Arabs and berbers cross all the way into the west?Even Im having trouble with Cordoba actually exploring with it's hedonistic lifestyle.Ahmed, Simply because a province says it produces 'fish' dosent nessicarily mean it's dirty poor .... take Tunis for example or Morocco perhaps - both regions have countless 'fertile' vallies, rivers and streams.Thus, your argument over bad climate (which I dont recall our ancestors ever complaining about) is standing. Regardless, your thinking with a Modern Age mentality - most people tend to stay put even in face of persecution, like the Moors of Spain or the Cathars of France, unless of course - forced out, but even then, mostly to 'adjacent' lands, not half way across the world :p
 
Calipah said:
Dear God Ahmed - why would African Arabs and berbers cross all the way into the west?Even Im having trouble with Cordoba actually exploring with it's hedonistic lifestyle.Ahmed, Simply because a province says it produces 'fish' dosent nessicarily mean it's dirty poor .... take Tunis for example or Morocco perhaps - both regions have countless 'fertile' vallies, rivers and streams.Thus, your argument over bad climate (which I dont recall our ancestors ever complaining about) is standing. Regardless, your thinking with a Modern Age mentality - most people tend to stay put even in face of persecution, like the Moors of Spain or the Cathars of France, unless of course - forced out, but even then, mostly to 'adjacent' lands, not half way across the world :p

About provs:
They are poor in game, not IRL.

About climate:
I mean subsaharian climate.

About refugies:
England christian sects went to America. It is later, but still count.
 
The other problem I had with the idea of Mahgrhebi refugees leaving for the New World is one of religion.

I am aware enough of Islam to know that the Hajj is considered one of the five pillars, something all devout muslims are expected to undertake. I realise that, in fact, not all of them do and that probably the vast majority of muslims in this time period likely did not, because it was waaaaaay too expensive and probably dangerous too (unless you lived in Arabia).

Anyway, basically everyone who went to the New World never returned. Wealthy people did, merchants too, but most colonists and even soldiers simply stayed. And if you though it would be expensive doing a Hajj from Cordoba, then Brazil is off the scale. So, knowing that you would realistically dondemn yourself, family and descendents from even going to Mecca, how would this be reconciled?

Just asking.
 
Well, I do believe Muslim theologians would have somehow reconciled the idea , but it never came up so to speak in terms of overseas colonial Muslims. Islander Muslims rarly left for Hajj, or for that matter people living in Turkey, Egypt or Persia (only the wealthy ones did) and Hajj isnt that nessicary, an obligation that can be stressed or not...

Anyway, the mindset of Islam is different than Christianity, and the colonial atmosphere that Christendom possessed - is very hard to salvage. Id even go far to say that al-Andalus would have cared little about the new world - unless of course, she could hurt her enemies or rivals there. Anyhow, Im against making such 'huge' migrations, which need certain conditions that would never be met, ingame.
 
England christian sects went to America. It is later, but still count.
Reply With Quote

The noncomformists did indeed leave for New England, and many came back to fight in the Civil War in the 1640s and onwards (some went back to New England after the 'betrayal' of their dream).

Although my understanding of Islam is rather academic and dated (800-1200ish), and likley not very strong at that, I don't know if I could personally argue for such a migration.

With that said, the only thing I could see, if we're to follow the English model, is that rich Sunni merchants become abhorred by the Free Will theories of the Mutazellites in Cordoba and Morroco. As the Catholic Scilians begin to rule in North Africa they realize that they can't accept the Heresy (Catholicism has a strong Free Will tradition that Calvin and others opposed with Predestinarianism) in any form and as a result start a campaign to leave their ancestral lands for somewhere else. The Christians are more than happy to see the Muslims leave and in the Spirit of the Real Life expulsion of Muslims from Iberia offer some "assisstance" to the disgruntled but wealthy Muslims of North Africa, a map of the Isthmus and surrounding regions and a few rickety old ships for the poor to leave on (get them far far away). The wealthy merchants buy their own ships, happy to be free from this damned heresy that they see all around themselves and also happy that some of the poor have a chance to escape it, taking their families and households and anyone who could be crammed onto the Scilian boats away to this new World where they can bring the true world of God with them and live in a kind of Paradise on Earth. As most of the poor ships are destroyed on the cross Atlantic voyage the settlements that are set up are highly affluent. The original Plutocracy quickly gives way to an inherent aristocracy as the Merchants and their descendants realize that they can't live off the fat of the land. The remaining poor refugees are organized into estates (I'm thinking of the Spanish set up of ecampioneros.. or however it is properly spelt).

This story line may be extremely unfeasible and is in the wrong place in the Chinese thread, but the whole thread seems to have gone off topic. It supports the creation of some kind of small state in the Isthmus region (though any region could be chosen, maybe the Amazon, as the Scilians wouldn't send the Muslims anywhere particularly livable) that is Sunni, Magrebi, poor though with high Aristocratic, Naval, and Innovative values, allowing it to spread across its new homeland...

Just a thought, Cheers.
 
Calipah said:
Well, I do believe Muslim theologians would have somehow reconciled the idea , but it never came up so to speak in terms of overseas colonial Muslims. Islander Muslims rarly left for Hajj, or for that matter people living in Turkey, Egypt or Persia (only the wealthy ones did) and Hajj isnt that nessicary, an obligation that can be stressed or not...

Anyway, the mindset of Islam is different than Christianity, and the colonial atmosphere that Christendom possessed - is very hard to salvage. Id even go far to say that al-Andalus would have cared little about the new world - unless of course, she could hurt her enemies or rivals there. Anyhow, Im against making such 'huge' migrations, which need certain conditions that would never be met, ingame.

I suppose that explains why the game has 0 as the basical value for Sunni and Shiite religions in terms of colonist numbers, whereas for Catholic its 200.

But I had to up it or else Cordoba just cannot colonise. Especially if the ai choses a single +1 to Inno through some event.

Dairpo's suggestions for giving some philisophical underpinings to it all read pretty well to me.

Matty