Church Reform

[Deaghaidh]

Too what degree will we be able to effect eccliesiastical policy in our realms? I ask because it greatly impacted politics in this time period. For example, Ireland finally adopted a dioscesan (sp?) system during the CK time period (before the Norman invasion) over its older monestary-based one. This was due in part to pressure from various Irish kings. In CK terms, one could say these Kings wanted to increase their Peity ranking so they would be seen as more legitimate in Europe. So even without having control over any bishops, a dynasty should be able to influence church policy.
On the other hand, they shouldn't be able to influence too much, because the church could and would dig in its heels if it thought its independance would be threatened (i.e. Becket)

 

[unmerged(7417)]

eccliesiastical

Uhhhh..... Spelling?

dioscesan

Diocese?

In CK terms, one could say these Kings wanted to increase their Peity ranking so they would be seen as more legitimate in Europe

It actually sounds pretty good.

I would hope you could change your Christian Religious structure in the game, although it might be difficult, and I dont think it has been talked about...

 

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Disturbed
I would hope you could change your Christian Religious structure in the game, although it might be difficult, and I dont think it has been talked about...

Sounds very interesting. Are someone else than me thinking of an early prostantism? Anyway, I'm sure this would be a good feature, if implemented right. But is it likely that'll be in? I fear not.

 

[Drakken]

I think the only reforms of that time were the Gregorian revolution, the monastic influence of Cluny and the Constitution of Gregory X. There were ideological and doctrinal reforms, but not very institutional.

Any tentative to reform the Church in "another" manner would be far-fetched, unhistorical and exaggerated, even though the Roman Church will, in the longer term, integrate the influence from the Orthodox Church on his liturgies, rituals and even dogmas.

Drakken

 

[Nikolai]

Completely off-topic, but: That flag you have there looks very good, Drakken! Have you made it yourself?

BTW, do you mean that the Roman Church was getting more and more like the Orthodox Church? Didn't they at best despise each other?

 

[Norgesvenn]

So even without having control over any bishops, a dynasty should be able to influence church policy.
On the other hand, they shouldn't be able to influence too much, because the church could and would dig in its heels if it thought its independance would be threatened (i.e. Becket)

Not to bash your idea, but the way I look at it, it was more the Church influencing the kings. The Church had, since the days of Charlemagne, given some legitimacy to royals by crowning them. When the royalty tried to challenge the Church (i.e. invade the Church's sphere of influence) even on a small scale, a Papal Bull was in the coming.

The struggle over investure is but one example. I could cite more, such as King Sverre Sigurdsson of Norway being excommunicated for not respecting the bishops and archbishops.

 

[Nikolai]

But in the info we've got from sergei, it's said that you can controll the Pope, but not play it. That should mean that if you're good, patient, influential and perhaps pious, you should be able to do something.

 

[Drakken]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Completely off-topic, but: That flag you have there looks very good, Drakken! Have you made it yourself?

BTW, do you mean that the Roman Church was getting more and more like the Orthodox Church? Didn't they at best despise each other?

Thank you. Havard made it.

They will, but after the Great Schism. But one the purposes of the first Crusade was to help the Byzantine Emperor Alexis against the Turks, at his own request.

Drakken

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Nikolai
But in the info we've got from sergei, it's said that you can controll the Pope, but not play it. That should mean that if you're good, patient, influential and perhaps pious, you should be able to do something.

And perhaps place the correct family members within the organization itself.

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Drakken
I think the only reforms of that time were the Gregorian revolution, the monastic influence of Cluny and the Constitution of Gregory X. There were ideological and doctrinal reforms, but not very institutional.

Any tentative to reform the Church in "another" manner would be far-fetched, unhistorical and exaggerated, even though the Roman Church will, in the longer term, integrate the influence from the Orthodox Church on his liturgies, rituals and even dogmas.

Drakken

I believe there were numerous attempts, even if not all of them were long lasting, e.g. things like the Sacrosanta decree from 1415

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Originally posted by Drakken
I think the only reforms of that time were the Gregorian revolution, the monastic influence of Cluny and the Constitution of Gregory X. There were ideological and doctrinal reforms, but not very institutional.

Any tentative to reform the Church in "another" manner would be far-fetched, unhistorical and exaggerated, even though the Roman Church will, in the longer term, integrate the influence from the Orthodox Church on his liturgies, rituals and even dogmas.

Drakken

Basically you are right, and I don't think you should be able to change the whole structure of the catholic church.

However, I'd really like to see me being able to fund monasteries and orders, as it was common in the time period.
Monasteries were at the time period at best source of science and wisdom, and at least sources of cheap scribes and a great way to increase Piety Points.

 

[Deaghaidh]

Well, I'll still maintain that secular politics should be able to influence the church, though not as strongly as the church can influence them. For instance the Kings of England pushed to have Ireland organized under the Archdioscese (damn church words, can't spell them) of Canturbury so they would have more influence. Perhaps this sort of politicing could be dependant on having a dynasty member hold a church office?

 

[Aetius]

There were also several conflict between the Churches in the border areas. I think the Bulgars switched sides a couple of times. The Maronites and some other middle-eastern christians also switched from the Orthodox to the Catholic church.

 

[unmerged(9599)]

Originally posted by Deaghaidh
Too what degree will we be able to effect eccliesiastical policy in our realms? I ask because it greatly impacted politics in this time period. For example, Ireland finally adopted a dioscesan (sp?) system during the CK time period (before the Norman invasion) over its older monestary-based one. This was due in part to pressure from various Irish kings. In CK terms, one could say these Kings wanted to increase their Peity ranking so they would be seen as more legitimate in Europe. So even without having control over any bishops, a dynasty should be able to influence church policy.
On the other hand, they shouldn't be able to influence too much, because the church could and would dig in its heels if it thought its independance would be threatened (i.e. Becket)

The monastic church was not even catholic they were Celtic Christian big difference like converting Catholic to Protestant.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Re: Re: Church Reform

Originally posted by náraiC
The monastic church was not even catholic they were Celtic Christian big difference like converting Catholic to Protestant.

But didn't some monks from Ireland convert mainland European Germanic tribes in the 5th/6th century in a mission from the Pope?
Being catholic "only" requires to accept catholic church dogma and obey the papacy, after all...

 

[unmerged(8915)]

i think a sure thing to gain some piety is to throw some money thye church's way. quite a widespread practive at the time too, y'know? even good old richard lionheart promised to build 3 churches (correct me if im wrong) if he would survive his home-bound water journey. of course, an austrian jail got sort of in the way and postponed the things a bit remember not to throw off other people's banners off citywalls ...

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Originally posted by Ladislav
i think a sure thing to gain some piety is to throw some money thye church's way. quite a widespread practive at the time too, y'know? even good old richard lionheart promised to build 3 churches (correct me if im wrong) if he would survive his home-bound water journey. of course, an austrian jail got sort of in the way and postponed the things a bit remember not to throw off other people's banners off citywalls ...

Yeah, but it shouldn't give you that much. Otherwise that could really be exploited.

 

[unmerged(8915)]

Originally posted by Jinnai
Yeah, but it shouldn't give you that much. Otherwise that could really be exploited.

i totally agree. maybe gaining piety will he harder than loosing it you know, beinga good christian and all, but two wrong wars and byebye reputation!

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Ladislav
i totally agree. maybe gaining piety will he harder than loosing it you know, beinga good christian and all, but two wrong wars and byebye reputation!

I agree with both of you on that it should be hard to buy piety. IMO very little piety should be possible to obtain through donations (a little, but not much). Your actions in other fields should count a lot more...

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Drakken
I think the only reforms of that time were the Gregorian revolution, the monastic influence of Cluny and the Constitution of Gregory X. There were ideological and doctrinal reforms, but not very institutional.

Any tentative to reform the Church in "another" manner would be far-fetched, unhistorical and exaggerated, even though the Roman Church will, in the longer term, integrate the influence from the Orthodox Church on his liturgies, rituals and even dogmas.

Drakken

There was the long drawn out fight about Concillar or Papal pre-eminance. And that one was strongly influenced by the attitudes of secular rulers. And tied up with the great schism of course. The authority of the pope varied to a great degree in this period.