Church Reform

[Deaghaidh]

Re: Re: Church Reform

Originally posted by náraiC
The monastic church was not even catholic they were Celtic Christian big difference like converting Catholic to Protestant.

Somewhat true, but not quite. Many of the prominent theologians of the time had been trained in Ireland or by Irish missionaries, so a the bulk of Early Catholic theology would probably be the same. The old Celtic Church was more different (the most prominent was they used a different calendar, but they also had more lay participation, church centered around monestaries (instead of bishops)). But by 1066 they'd (at least publicly and reluctantly) joined up with the rest of western christianity. They used the same calendar by that point, had agreed in theory on Papal athority (since he was too far away and disinterested to bother them), etc.
But they still hadn't switched over to a diocesean (sp?) organizational structure, had a vastly higher divorce rate (old Irish Brehon law was very modern in some respects, particularly about marriage), had lay abbots (who were sometimes also Kings), and other things like it. It was a slow process and the most powerfull nobles were a key part in pulling it toward the 'mainstream' western christianity.
Something I'd like to be able to effect would be where the bishops would be seated (if I've got more pull with the church I can get it in my territory, if the Church hates me they favor my rivals).

 

[unmerged(3204)]

Originally posted by Deaghaidh
Well, I'll still maintain that secular politics should be able to influence the church, though not as strongly as the church can influence them. For instance the Kings of England pushed to have Ireland organized under the Archdioscese (damn church words, can't spell them)

for such words, you dirty heathen, you are awarded with -5000 Piety points, meaning automatic excomunication and a Crusade against you

of Canterbury so they would have more influence. Perhaps this sort of politicing could be dependant on having a dynasty member hold a church office?

the Diocese region will be counted somewhat like CoT region in EU, so that Ruler won't be able to choose which Bishop or Archbishop he would ask for divorce.

Ireland has its own Bishop of Armagh, and is highly unlikely to fall under influence of Archbishop of Canterbury.


Duke in Red

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by boreal_s
for such words, you dirty heathen, you are awarded with -5000 Piety points, meaning automatic excomunication and a Crusade against you



the Diocese region will be counted somewhat like CoT region in EU, so that Ruler won't be able to choose which Bishop or Archbishop he would ask for divorce.

Ireland has its own Bishop of Armagh, and is highly unlikely to fall under influence of Archbishop of Canterbury.


Duke in Red

Oooh - I just lover this kind of talk! There's going to be so much to think about in this game. Not just counting up how many troops you need to bust a fortress etc.

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
There was the long drawn out fight about Concillar or Papal pre-eminance. And that one was strongly influenced by the attitudes of secular rulers. And tied up with the great schism of course. The authority of the pope varied to a great degree in this period.

The Sacrosanta decree was the ultimate result of this

 

[unmerged(8915)]

oh boy o boy o boy! more info!

hm, a crusade against an evil monarch - sounds like a plan to me! who wants to go alllll the way to palestine if you can enjoy the med right in provence, while getting all the goodie points from the church for burning a few albigensians here and here

will the player have an option of pillaging a province, but leaving it unoccupied - a raid maybe?

 

[unmerged(9599)]

Ireland has its own Bishop of Armagh, and is highly unlikely to fall under influence of Archbishop of Canterbury.


Duke in Red [/B]

Ireland had at this time 4archdioces Dublin Armagh Cashel (capital of kingdom of Munster) and Tuam
22 other dioceses

 

[unmerged(9599)]

Ireland has its own Bishop of Armagh, and is highly unlikely to fall under influence of Archbishop of Canterbury.


Duke in Red [/B]

Ireland had at this time 4archdioces Armagh(1-7) Dublin(8-11) Cashel(9-17) (capital of kingdom of Munster) and Tuam
22 other dioceses
1Ardagh and Clonmacnois
2Clogher
3Derry
4Down and Connor
5Dromore
6Kilmore
7Meath
8Raphoe
9Ferns
10Kildare and Leighlin
11Ossory
12Cloyne
13Cork and Ross
14Kerry
15Killaloe
16Limerick
17Waterford and Lismore
18Achonry
19Clonfert
20Elphin
21Galway
22Killala

 

[unmerged(9599)]

Re: Re: Re: Church Reform

Originally posted by Deaghaidh
But they still hadn't switched over to a diocesean (sp?) organizational structure, had a vastly higher divorce rate (old Irish Brehon law was very modern in some respects, particularly about marriage), had lay abbots (who were sometimes also Kings), and other things like it. It was a slow process and the most powerfull nobles were a key part in pulling it toward the 'mainstream' western christianity.
Something I'd like to be able to effect would be where the bishops would be seated (if I've got more pull with the church I can get it in my territory, if the Church hates me they favor my rivals).

True maybe Counter reform to Catholic to Protestant to Reformed

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by náraiC
Ireland had at this time 4archdioces Dublin Armagh Cashel (capital of kingdom of Munster) and Tuam
22 other dioceses

But if you're going for realism it ain't gonna be pretty in the HRE or in Italy