I fail to see how this has any relevance to the thread topic. As already mentioned - stick to the topic!
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Founding cities could come at a cost while just increasing the population of the province, or at least the nr of burghers, and changing the economic composition. So it wouldn't be necessarily have to be shown on the map, I think.
In a more detailed model you could do some funny things. Eg if I'm the King and have trouble with a vassal, I could grant his cities some extra priviledges to weaken his position and gain the cities' support... was standard practice back then.
In a more detailed model you could do some funny things. Eg if I'm the King and have trouble with a vassal, I could grant his cities some extra priviledges to weaken his position and gain the cities' support... was standard practice back then.
Tell that to the people of Lübeck, or citizens in a variety of cities in the Baltic where the Teutoic Order expanded.
Originally posted by Sytass
Tell that to the people of Lübeck, or citizens in a variety of cities in the Baltic where the Teutoic Order expanded.
Lubeck was founded in the 12th c. by Count Adolf II von Schauenburg of Holstein & Duke Henry III the Lion of Saxony (1143/1159). Original poster said most cities were founded 13th-14th c.
Maybe as you head east that gets more true, but in western Europe, Id say most of the cities that matter in the game period were founded before 13th-14th c.
I agree. Maybe it'd be possible to make the possibility of founding new cities dependant on the population density? And make the cities somewhat abstract, maybe something like "Holstein, containing three cities." Or "Mecklenburg, 7,000 of the 26,000 people live in towns and cities". The regent could then influence the numbers accordingly.
Did you ever see the game Hammer of the Gods? It was a full map of Europe, you played a Scandinavian "Viking" country. Anyway, for cities that were founded during the period but not in existence at the start of the game, there were "city sites".
The site was marked with an icon; you could see the geographic/strategic value of the site just by looking at the map. When you were ready, you could found a city on that site. A bit simplistic, but it did was allow you to found new cities but in a "historical" way; you couldnt just plop a city down anywhere and call it "Bob Town". You could only found them where they wouldve existed eventually anyway, and each city had its real-life name.
I don't get all that city thing at all. Shouldn't it be just provinces, and cities be abstracted as burgher influence/slider/whatever?
Hammer of Gods was cool. And it was done by Holistic Design!
Hammer of Gods was cool. And it was done by Holistic Design!
@BarbarossaHRE
I agree that a few cities were already well established (Paris and London havin 100.000 inhabitants). But still I'm sure that most cities were founded in the middle ages. It's nice how many cities you counted up, but the list of cities that were founded in the 12th to 14th century is propably much longer. There were two periods in German history in which the annual amount of new founded cities was very high. That's from 513-750 and from 1120-1350, though the latter was much higher than the first. Most of the cities you listed did exist at that time already, because they were new cities, constructed on the ruins of old roman cities. One could say that these weren't new founded, but rather simply re-founded. But the real new foundation of cities happened in the time frame I mentioned. Anyways...
Sorry for being so conceited about German history, but it is my speciality and I think that Germany and the HRE will play a big role in the game.
I agree that a few cities were already well established (Paris and London havin 100.000 inhabitants). But still I'm sure that most cities were founded in the middle ages. It's nice how many cities you counted up, but the list of cities that were founded in the 12th to 14th century is propably much longer. There were two periods in German history in which the annual amount of new founded cities was very high. That's from 513-750 and from 1120-1350, though the latter was much higher than the first. Most of the cities you listed did exist at that time already, because they were new cities, constructed on the ruins of old roman cities. One could say that these weren't new founded, but rather simply re-founded. But the real new foundation of cities happened in the time frame I mentioned. Anyways...
Sorry for being so conceited about German history, but it is my speciality and I think that Germany and the HRE will play a big role in the game.
Dont apologize, as my username & avatar suggest, I love German history.
I didnt mean that the list of cities founded 13th-14th c. wouldnt be long; I meant (and its somewhere in my posts) that most of the cities that matter in the game (meaning capitals of major fiefs (Duchies, Marches, etc.) and archbishoprics & bishoprics) were founded before 13th c.
Mieszko, don't mistake founding a city with granting city rights.
There may be the impression of more cities being founded between 12th and 14th century because of existing places getting full city rights, a concept new then and spreading quickly.
This, however, could be modelled by a "citizen freedoms" slider. Founding new cities and having them prosper should be expensive and scarce, and should be very limited in Western Europe.
There may be the impression of more cities being founded between 12th and 14th century because of existing places getting full city rights, a concept new then and spreading quickly.
This, however, could be modelled by a "citizen freedoms" slider. Founding new cities and having them prosper should be expensive and scarce, and should be very limited in Western Europe.
Well, there comes the question if cities get founded at all, or if they grow from villages....
Which brings another idea-isn't granting city rights not only political thing, but also representing the fact village grew into town and city?Originally posted by Sytass
A few get founded, most grow, I'd say.
Mieszko: I should also add that Im basing this on what might be an erroneous assumption, namely: each province, as in EU2, HoI, & EU will only have ONE city, the capital of that province. Now there will be alot more provinces in CK than the above, so therefore alot more cities; but at least in western Europe (Germany included), the capitals of most fiefs or bishoprics I can think of already existed.
Yes, the capital may have later been moved to another city (like Bavaria: Regensburg to Munich), but one still existed before.
If the rule doesnt apply on the CK map, then sure, fill each province with new cities.
Maybe Havard can answer that question.
Yes, the capital may have later been moved to another city (like Bavaria: Regensburg to Munich), but one still existed before.
If the rule doesnt apply on the CK map, then sure, fill each province with new cities.
Maybe Havard can answer that question.
We better be able to make cities.
That was one thing that pissed me off about EU2- you could not make cities, despite there being several prominent exapmles of this happening during the period- St. Petersburg being the most obvious.
Anyway, I start foaming at the mouth when I think about creating a city in Capadocia strong enough to withstand the post-Manzekirt Turkish incursions.
That was one thing that pissed me off about EU2- you could not make cities, despite there being several prominent exapmles of this happening during the period- St. Petersburg being the most obvious.
Anyway, I start foaming at the mouth when I think about creating a city in Capadocia strong enough to withstand the post-Manzekirt Turkish incursions.
Thats an important distinction-thanks!
In Germany, though all the cities I listed and more existed by 1066, the granting of privileges directly to the town (citizens) instead of its bishops or counts started only in 1074 with Henry IV's charter to Worms.
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Now, I understand you fully and must agree. It seems that all the provinces in CK will already have their distinct capital city and anything further to that will propably only implemented through one slide bar or something like that. The Centralization DP slider of EU2 should do. Pretty sad that this unique timeframe in history, where cities competed with the dukes and counts and whoever, isn't implemented to it's full worth. Unless, of course, we miss somethin, which might very well be, given our practical non-existent knowledge of that matter and having only one mere, funny looking picture of the game and the fact that Havard is not helping at all here
Mieszko, I think the competition between burghers and aristocracy is still in, as it seems that you have to keep the aristocrats, the people (peasants and/or burghers?), and the clergy in the provinces happy.
(Reminds me of Medieval Lords.)
(Reminds me of Medieval Lords.)
I don't know when my vilage was fonded but it was a danish guy that draind 2 rivers and created a "holm" or "holme". His name was Bill or someting like that and "we/he" named it Billesholm.
I do knew that Billesholm existed 1600, but I have not found a erlier map of skåne.
I do knew that Billesholm existed 1600, but I have not found a erlier map of skåne.