Civil War

[Wheeler711]

Please add civil wars to the game! In the style of EU Rome. As much as I hate rebels poping up all the time in Paradox games I love to fight civil wars because to me they mean a lot more than a small rebel group that has no chance of winning most of the time. Anyone have ideas on how to expand on the idea of having civil wars?

 

[SapientHomo]

The only way to really do a civil war justice is to use extra tags and that would slow the game down. That said in certain situations having an event pop up that makes half your nation instantly fall under the control of a strong rebel faction could be interesting and certainly better than chasing single un-related rebel armies around.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Two tags for every nation? No thanks.

 

[Wheeler711]

What if you don't need tags? How about an event fires stating "Civil War" of what ever type it'd be and several province turns into a rebel controled province of that rebel faction. Need to think outside of the box then if tags cause lag.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Tags do not slow down the game.

 

[Wheeler711]

Tags do not slow down the game.

If this is true then there should be no reason not to add Civil wars to the game. I mean how could you seriously not want civil wars in EU3 it would add so much.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Tags do not slow down the game.

If this is true then there should be no reason not to add Civil wars to the game. I mean how could you seriously not want civil wars in EU3 it would add so much.

I believe they do. In the current engine (which EUIV is partially based on), adding a significant number (like doubling the count) of tags does slow down the game. Because those tags still have relations, sliders and other things going on and flags must be calculated for them. When calculating claims on a region, the engine checks to see how many provs a nation has. It cannot tell if it has 0 claims without first checking each province anyway and each tag anyway.

Or at least that is what I am led to believe. It is one of the two issues facing MEIOU right now. People want more tags, but tags seem to be slowing things down (when the map is held constant).

 

[Wheeler711]

I believe they do. In the current engine (which EUIV is partially based on), adding a significant number (like doubling the count) of tags does slow down the game. Because those tags still have relations, sliders and other things going on and flags must be calculated for them. When calculating claims on a region, the engine checks to see how many provs a nation has. It cannot tell if it has 0 claims without first checking each province anyway and each tag anyway.

Or at least that is what I am led to believe. It is one of the two issues facing MEIOU right now. People want more tags, but tags seem to be slowing things down (when the map is held constant).

Well can we have someone confirm if this is true or not? Also my idea works around using tags. Oh and also I have been using MEIOU right now and it is slower but I thought it was because of all the added provinces and more countries that are around on the map but overall its barely noticeable to me.

 

[SapientHomo]

Two tags for every nation? No thanks.

Totally agree that's why I'd prefer it done with rebels. Some famous civil wars like the Wars of the Roses could be done with tags but EU3 had those tags and then didn't use them for that purpose so there is no real point in having them when rebels can be just as, if not more, effective.

The only use of having a tag for an opposing civil war faction is to tag switch and then play as them to try and win the civil war and if players want want that it is moddable.

 

[Culise]

Well can we have someone confirm if this is true or not? Also my idea works around using tags. Oh and also I have been using MEIOU right now and it is slower but I thought it was because of all the added provinces and more countries that are around on the map but overall its barely noticeable to me.

They do, for all Paradox games. For this specific game, you can also check the first sticky thread: Collected Information From The Devs. Specifically, it was answered in Modding (vis-à-vis modders adding new nations), in the subsection "Adding stuff." This is not changing for EU4's variant on the Clauswitz engine. It can be optimized for a specific tag number by the devs, so they theoretically could try to optimize it for twice the number of tags they're planning for at present, but that won't stop it from being slower in absolute terms, so the value of these tags, a large majority of which will never be used in a game, must be balanced against combinatorial explosion of adding that many tags (that is, for relation values alone, 3 tags have 3 interactions, while 6 tags have 15, and 9 have 36 interactions that must be tracked). It's kinda buried in there, so I'm not surprised it was missed, but his statement is 100% correct.

 

[Jaol]

The existing rebel mechanics can handle civil wars ok, IMO. With just a few improvements it could be really good.

I mean, if significant portions of your army defect to the rebels, and the rebel own armies are reinforcing, that's a good start. Perhaps add in the ability for certain rebel types to raise new regiments in provinces they control, and the ability for neighboring countries to declare war in support of the rebels. Then you've got a pretty good model of a civil war. Also, if the warscore/AI diplomacy mechanics are improved (so for example, the AI will surrender when its main armies are destroyed and it has no hope of winning), then have some equivalent for negotiating with rebels.

 

[Secret Master]

Two tags for every nation? No thanks.

I know it might cause performance issues, but the double tags worked really well in EU:Rome to simulate civil wars.

The civil wars in Rome were not just rebel uprisings, though. They split the military, characters, and provinces all up. Having to face your own experienced troops led by your own experienced leaders made civil wars in Rome far more interesting and dynamic than anything rebellion or civil war related in Vic2 or EU3.

 

[unmerged(353072)]

Well I am not sure how tags work but why not just have them support a certain type of government and sliders. So having a civil war start and the rebels want a despotic monarchy with high decentralization or something like that. It uses the rebel system but you still get a civil war and the event trigger can be based on stability and war exhaustion or bankruptcy.

 

[Eh up me duck]

I believe they do. In the current engine (which EUIV is partially based on), adding a significant number (like doubling the count) of tags does slow down the game. Because those tags still have relations, sliders and other things going on and flags must be calculated for them. When calculating claims on a region, the engine checks to see how many provs a nation has. It cannot tell if it has 0 claims without first checking each province anyway and each tag anyway.

Or at least that is what I am led to believe. It is one of the two issues facing MEIOU right now. People want more tags, but tags seem to be slowing things down (when the map is held constant).

It was my understanding that tags can be loaded and unloaded mid-game. For example during a game of EU3, the UK tag comes into existence when the player activates the decision to form it. Of course unless you remove tags this can lead to them accumilating, but that's a different story.

Obviously I am by no means an expert on the engine, so I'd welcome being corrected (especially by a dev).

On topic, I'm amazed that people think the only way to have civil wars is two tags.

 

[flame7926]

It was my understanding that tags can be loaded and unloaded mid-game. For example during a game of EU3, the UK tag comes into existence when the player activates the decision to form it. Of course unless you remove tags this can lead to them accumilating, but that's a different story.

Obviously I am by no means an expert on the engine, so I'd welcome being corrected (especially by a dev).

On topic, I'm amazed that people think the only way to have civil wars is two tags.

No, tags are always there. Even if they aren't associated with any provinces or cores, they are still there.

How else would you have a civil war besides having two countries, ie two tags?

 

[Jaol]

No, tags are always there. Even if they aren't associated with any provinces or cores, they are still there.

Yes and the engine still checks if they meet the conditions for events, looks to see if they are valid targets of random/any_country effects, etc.. That's how the maintenance events that clear flags and so on from for non-existent nations

How else would you have a civil war besides having two countries, ie two tags?

Have one side be the country, and the other side be represented by a type of rebels...

 

[flame7926]

Yes and the engine still checks if they meet the conditions for events, looks to see if they are valid targets of random/any_country effects, etc.. That's how the maintenance events that clear flags and so on from for non-existent nations

Have one side be the country, and the other side be represented by a type of rebels...

Events don't fire for non existent countries though, right? And if one side is represented as just rebel units, I wouldn't consider it a full civil war, with both sides having leaders, rulers, full goals, etc.

 

[Eh up me duck]

How else would you have a civil war besides having two countries, ie two tags?

Well a civil war is when a country fights within itself. So...have the country fight within itself, maybe?

The community doesn't like solutions don't require a comedic level of effort. Like, you know, coming up with a flag for every single nation in the game.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Events don't fire for non existent countries though, right? And if one side is represented as just rebel units, I wouldn't consider it a full civil war, with both sides having leaders, rulers, full goals, etc.

Rebels have leaders as it is. Who's to say rebels in EU4 won't have rulers?

 

[flame7926]

Well a civil war is when a country fights within itself. So...have the country fight within itself, maybe?

The community doesn't like solutions don't require a comedic level of effort. Like, you know, coming up with a flag for every single nation in the game.

Its where a country yeah, fights itself. Usually with both sides having organized governments, leaders, rulers etc, so in EU3 terms they would both be countries. A country fighting a bunch of rebels just doesn't give the civil war feel at all though. Did you know that every nation already has a flag? So there is no need to come up with more...

I know the rebel troops have leaders, but that is more fitting for revolts and short riots. Not a long drawn out civil war at all. You need two countries for that.