Short summary of your issue
Counties and Baronies in k_Estonia use incorrect names in many cases.
Game Version
1.3.1
What OS are you playing on?
Windows
What platform are you using?
Steam
Do you have mods enabled?
No
Have you tried verifying your game files (Steam only)?
No
How much "pain" is this causing you?
3
Please explain the issue you experienced in the most condensed way possible
Most counties and baronies in k_Estonia use modern names based on new towns or other names that were definitely not used in the 9th century.
Please explain how to reproduce the issue
I'll make a list:
1. County of Reval should actually be named "Rävala". "Reval" is the German translation of the original Estonian name used for the area. If you open this article about a massive find of Viking sword fragments (that belonged to Estonians) then you can see that historians use the term "Rävala" (no ä in the link obviously) when referring to that county: https://news.err.ee/1012100/burial-site-ties-major-viking-swords-find-to-warriors-from-ravala Scandinavians called it "Rafala" (Njal's Saga) which was again derived from the term used by the Estonians.
1a. Kalevan is most likely a wrong name for the barony, "Lindanisa" would very likely be the term used for that area in the CK time frame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallinn#Historical_names
2. County of Narva should most likely be called "Virumaa" as Narva is the name of the town on the Narva river. Virumaa was the ancient county of that area.
2a. Barony of Wesenberg uses a German name for modern-day Rakvere which was called "Tarvanpää" by the Estonians before the crusades.
3. County of Tartu should possibly be split into 2 counties as it is too large. Most of it was called "Ugandi" by the tribe who lived there. The northern part of the CK county had other area names.
3a. Barony of Poltsamaa should be called "Mõhu" by the tribe who lived there as Põltsamaa is a town that was created later than CK start dates, it definitely wasn't used back then.
3b. Barony of Tartu should be "Tarbata" as Tartu is the modern name. Forms like "Tarbata" were used up until the 16th century and it is very likely derived from the Estonian word for the aurochs.
3c. Barony of Valga is the modern name, hard to say what the name should be back then as it wasn't a very notable area. "Walco", "Walko" and "Walk" are the likely names of Valga before the 13th century. No clear answer to this one.
3d. Vastseliina means "new fort" in the Estonian, German and Russian names for it. I don't really know any viking age fort names for the area as it isn't mentioned in Sagas and such. "Võro" would be a good replacement as the ancient Võro people lived in that area. It was a very sparsely populated area and there was a natural barrier of impenetrable forests and bogs separating it from the rest of Estonia which was such a barrier that it shows a clear divide even in genetics in the modern day.
4. County of Livs is really odd as the Livonians didn't even live in that county. "Sakala" would be correct name as the ancient powerful county/tribe of Sakala was in that location.
4a. Alistegunde should probably be "Alistekund" as Alistegunde is in Latin. I don't know much about the other baronies based on written records.
5. County of Vidzeme... That's a Baltic name but it wasn't inhabited by Balts. "Metsepole" or something similar would be more fitting, Vidzeme is just wrong on many levels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metsepole
5a. Salacgriva is a Latvian name, that area became Baltic after the medieval era. "Salatsi" would be correct as that is the Estonian/Livonian name.
5b. Lemisele seems to be correct
5c. Barony of Ikskila is placed where "Riga" should actually be. The name of "Ikskila" seems to be a modern derivate in Latvian based from the more ancient name of "Üksküla". Not 100% sure in this.
6. County of Läänemaa seems to be correct.
6a. Haapsalu is the name of the town that was built there after the crusades. "Ridala" would be more fitting as that was the ancient parish in that area.
6b. Don't know much about the name of Lihula but that place was used as a fort since the Iron Age which makes it quite old.
7. County of Osel... Osel (or actually Ösel) is the German name for the area. "Saaremaa" would be correct as it was called "island's land" in Estonian and Norse. Also, using modern maps depicting that area is the most problematic for Saaremaa as 1200 years ago it looked notably different. For example, the Sõrve peninsula used to be an island an very important strait was located between the Sõrve island and Saaremaa island. The biggest find related to the Viking Age (Salme ships) from the last 40 years is found from the location where that strait used to be.
Saaremaa should have more baronies and Sõrve should be one of those new baronies.
7a. Barony of Maasilinna would be a good name after the Crusades but in the Viking Age, the ancient fort in Pöide was the main fort of the area. So "Pöide" is probably more fitting.
Lastly I would like to bring out that the borders between the Estonian culture and Baltic cultures is very wrong as you have obviously based it on the 13th century map of the Baltic tribes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts#/media/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg
In the 9th and 11th centuries the situation was quite different. Firstly, the Balts didn't inhabit the coastline stretching from Estonia to modern-day western Latvia. Zemgals having access to the coast is wrong and that county 100% needs a rework so there wouldn't be an ahistorical situation of Balts living on the shores of the Gulf of Riga in CK start dates.
The counties in Estonia & modern-day Latvia need a serious rework but right now I can say that the counties of Vanemane, Talava and Kokenois were Finnic in both start dates. Aluksne was mixed. Northern part of Zemigalians was also Finnic. All of those areas should be in k_Estonia as they belong into e_Scandinavia with other Finnics and not into Lithuania. But the culture borders being wrong and based on the situation many centuries after the start date is a different bug report topic. It would be nice if PDX would actually check the culture situation for every specific century and not base the borders based on a century not even used in the CK start dates.
Also, it is odd that many names currently used are missing umlauts but I see umlauts used in Swedish barony names so it shouldn't be a problem to implement them?
Is there anything else you think could help us identify/replicate the issue?
I have attached a save game
No
Upload Attachment
File(s) attached
Counties and Baronies in k_Estonia use incorrect names in many cases.
Game Version
1.3.1
What OS are you playing on?
Windows
What platform are you using?
Steam
Do you have mods enabled?
No
Have you tried verifying your game files (Steam only)?
No
How much "pain" is this causing you?
3
Please explain the issue you experienced in the most condensed way possible
Most counties and baronies in k_Estonia use modern names based on new towns or other names that were definitely not used in the 9th century.
Please explain how to reproduce the issue
I'll make a list:
1. County of Reval should actually be named "Rävala". "Reval" is the German translation of the original Estonian name used for the area. If you open this article about a massive find of Viking sword fragments (that belonged to Estonians) then you can see that historians use the term "Rävala" (no ä in the link obviously) when referring to that county: https://news.err.ee/1012100/burial-site-ties-major-viking-swords-find-to-warriors-from-ravala Scandinavians called it "Rafala" (Njal's Saga) which was again derived from the term used by the Estonians.
1a. Kalevan is most likely a wrong name for the barony, "Lindanisa" would very likely be the term used for that area in the CK time frame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallinn#Historical_names
2. County of Narva should most likely be called "Virumaa" as Narva is the name of the town on the Narva river. Virumaa was the ancient county of that area.
2a. Barony of Wesenberg uses a German name for modern-day Rakvere which was called "Tarvanpää" by the Estonians before the crusades.
3. County of Tartu should possibly be split into 2 counties as it is too large. Most of it was called "Ugandi" by the tribe who lived there. The northern part of the CK county had other area names.
3a. Barony of Poltsamaa should be called "Mõhu" by the tribe who lived there as Põltsamaa is a town that was created later than CK start dates, it definitely wasn't used back then.
3b. Barony of Tartu should be "Tarbata" as Tartu is the modern name. Forms like "Tarbata" were used up until the 16th century and it is very likely derived from the Estonian word for the aurochs.
3c. Barony of Valga is the modern name, hard to say what the name should be back then as it wasn't a very notable area. "Walco", "Walko" and "Walk" are the likely names of Valga before the 13th century. No clear answer to this one.
3d. Vastseliina means "new fort" in the Estonian, German and Russian names for it. I don't really know any viking age fort names for the area as it isn't mentioned in Sagas and such. "Võro" would be a good replacement as the ancient Võro people lived in that area. It was a very sparsely populated area and there was a natural barrier of impenetrable forests and bogs separating it from the rest of Estonia which was such a barrier that it shows a clear divide even in genetics in the modern day.
4. County of Livs is really odd as the Livonians didn't even live in that county. "Sakala" would be correct name as the ancient powerful county/tribe of Sakala was in that location.
4a. Alistegunde should probably be "Alistekund" as Alistegunde is in Latin. I don't know much about the other baronies based on written records.
5. County of Vidzeme... That's a Baltic name but it wasn't inhabited by Balts. "Metsepole" or something similar would be more fitting, Vidzeme is just wrong on many levels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metsepole
5a. Salacgriva is a Latvian name, that area became Baltic after the medieval era. "Salatsi" would be correct as that is the Estonian/Livonian name.
5b. Lemisele seems to be correct
5c. Barony of Ikskila is placed where "Riga" should actually be. The name of "Ikskila" seems to be a modern derivate in Latvian based from the more ancient name of "Üksküla". Not 100% sure in this.
6. County of Läänemaa seems to be correct.
6a. Haapsalu is the name of the town that was built there after the crusades. "Ridala" would be more fitting as that was the ancient parish in that area.
6b. Don't know much about the name of Lihula but that place was used as a fort since the Iron Age which makes it quite old.
7. County of Osel... Osel (or actually Ösel) is the German name for the area. "Saaremaa" would be correct as it was called "island's land" in Estonian and Norse. Also, using modern maps depicting that area is the most problematic for Saaremaa as 1200 years ago it looked notably different. For example, the Sõrve peninsula used to be an island an very important strait was located between the Sõrve island and Saaremaa island. The biggest find related to the Viking Age (Salme ships) from the last 40 years is found from the location where that strait used to be.
Saaremaa should have more baronies and Sõrve should be one of those new baronies.
7a. Barony of Maasilinna would be a good name after the Crusades but in the Viking Age, the ancient fort in Pöide was the main fort of the area. So "Pöide" is probably more fitting.
Lastly I would like to bring out that the borders between the Estonian culture and Baltic cultures is very wrong as you have obviously based it on the 13th century map of the Baltic tribes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts#/media/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg
In the 9th and 11th centuries the situation was quite different. Firstly, the Balts didn't inhabit the coastline stretching from Estonia to modern-day western Latvia. Zemgals having access to the coast is wrong and that county 100% needs a rework so there wouldn't be an ahistorical situation of Balts living on the shores of the Gulf of Riga in CK start dates.
The counties in Estonia & modern-day Latvia need a serious rework but right now I can say that the counties of Vanemane, Talava and Kokenois were Finnic in both start dates. Aluksne was mixed. Northern part of Zemigalians was also Finnic. All of those areas should be in k_Estonia as they belong into e_Scandinavia with other Finnics and not into Lithuania. But the culture borders being wrong and based on the situation many centuries after the start date is a different bug report topic. It would be nice if PDX would actually check the culture situation for every specific century and not base the borders based on a century not even used in the CK start dates.
Also, it is odd that many names currently used are missing umlauts but I see umlauts used in Swedish barony names so it shouldn't be a problem to implement them?
Is there anything else you think could help us identify/replicate the issue?
I have attached a save game
No
Upload Attachment
File(s) attached
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