Clan

[Darthmorpheus]

Ok what is it with dev's making every game about being an Inner sphere merc. l can't stand Inner sphere mechs or any of the houses , governments of the Inner sphere.
l would rather fight for my clan. l really do hope to see clan DLC the Inner sphere sucks.

 

[TaurianMerc]

Ok what is it with dev's making every game about being an Inner sphere merc. l can't stand Inner sphere mechs or any of the houses , governments of the Inner sphere.
l would rather fight for my clan. l really do hope to see clan DLC the Inner sphere sucks.

And you are as welcome to hold your own opinion as anyone else on here.
Some people on here remember a time before the Clans, and prefer that period to the point of hating the Clans (personally, whilst I do think they are silly levels of overpowered on the TT and I have some issues with their society fluffwise, I don't actually feel that strongly negative towards them). In terms of this game, HBS wanted to go back to the beginnings of Battletech (the original TT game was set in 3025) and plan to eventually work through the timeline. You might have a little wait however as there's almost 25 years between now and the invasion.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

If the Clams ever come into HBS BT, I hope there's a total rework of their inexplicable magical tech.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Ok what is it with dev's making every game about being an Inner sphere merc. l can't stand Inner sphere mechs or any of the houses , governments of the Inner sphere.
l would rather fight for my clan. l really do hope to see clan DLC the Inner sphere sucks.

I agree, I would prefer to have my BATTLETECH in the 3050-era. :bow:

But I can not argue with the business acumen and marketing genius that Team HBS has brough to bare. HBS has spoken of their hopes to develop both a Fourth Succession War and CLAN INVASION expansion to 3025 BATTLETECH.

And it makes a world of sense... Begin in the simpler, more straightforward, less complicated time of 3025. Take the heart of 3025 game mechanics and tailor it to the Fourth Succession War expansion. All the while having a small cadre of folks hard at work on crafting the game mechanics needed for a CLAN INVASION expansion~ Zelbrigen, Batchall, a HBS "translation" of Clan Tech, etc.

Yeah. : ) I can't wait to see what Team HBS comes up with. They have already given us Turn Order, the Stability System, Melee, Weapon Differentiation, and so much more... and it is only the 3025-era!

#TheBestIsYet2Come... though of course, your mileage may vary. :bow:

 

[Vanguard319]

If the Clams ever come into HBS BT, I hope there's a total rework of their inexplicable magical tech.

What's inexplicable? The clans didn't spend 250 years bombing themselves back into the stone age like the Inner Sphere did. That's more than enough time to improve existing Star League tech. The real question to ask is why didn't the Inner Sphere recover and undergo a technological renaissance until after the Helm memory core was discovered? To which I can tell you in one word: Comstar.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

What's inexplicable? The clans didn't spend 250 years bombing themselves back into the stone age like the Inner Sphere did. That's more than enough time to improve existing Star League tech. The real question to ask is why didn't the Inner Sphere recover and undergo a technological renaissance until after the Helm memory core was discovered? To which I can tell you in one word: Comstar.

No, instead, the Clans spent all that time under a fascist quasi-military dictatorship, culturally dominated by worship of the past and a ruling caste of children playing at war inside little closed-off arenas to make them feel like it was fair and safe and virtuous.

This is in all ways exactly the opposite of a culture that innovates.

 

[Vanguard319]

No, instead, the Clans spent all that time under a fascist quasi-military dictatorship, culturally dominated by worship of the past and a ruling caste of children playing at war inside little closed-off arenas to make them feel like it was fair and safe and virtuous.

This is in all ways exactly the opposite of a culture that innovates.

[Mod Edit: Personal, not topical]

I never once said the Clans were innovative, their tech is for the most part just an evolution of Star league era tech. LBX and Ultra Autocannons, Gauss Rifles, Extended range energy weapons, Streak SRMs, the star league already had working examples of these weapons. The Clans just filled out the sizes, and made them more compact, lighter, and more energy efficient. Ferro-Fibrous Armor? Endo-Steel? XL engines? Again, all Star league tech made better with improved materials science. The only major innovations the Clans developed prior to the invasion were Battle Armor and advanced targeting computers, as these technologies have no prior connection to Star league technology.

You're literally comparing an M240 SAW to a Browning Automatic Rifle, and concluding the SAW can't possibly exist because it's made from lighter materials, and it's ammo feed can fit both ammo belts and magazines, all while conveniently ignoring the fact that roughly 70 years of arms development occurred between their creation and adoption.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

You may not have used the word "innovation", but the fluff text for Clamtech constantly uses that term, synonyms for that term, phrasing that implies the same concept, and so on.

There's nothing about the Clams, nothing at all, that says "this society will make any sort of technological advancement". I've posted in great detail on other threads multiple times. Clamtech is in no way reflective of the actual Clam society of children playing at war in a stagnant, stratified, hyper-traditionalist culture.

Not getting into this argument in any more detail, it would go so far past the forum rules on discussing all the historical examples and real-world touchy political subjects.

You can choose to regard that as a victory.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Looking at lore, the flower of the SLDF, battle-hardened and to one degree or another, disaffected with Inner Sphere politics, took a significant portion of the Star League Military Industrial Complex (Scientists, Researchers, and other DARPA-types too) our into the Deep Periphery.

Having been a member of a Military-Industrial Complex for more than 20-years...

...I have no problem extrapolating 3050-ClanTech from that which Aleksandr Kerensky departed with in 2784. 266-years can be quite an incubator for the direction that emerged from Aleksandr and Nicholas’ efforts.


I understand there are those who would not agree and that is perfectly fine. But staying completely within our GAME FRANCHISE’s LORE, suspend whatever disbelief is required if any, and...

“...MECHWARRIORS, Mount Up!”

 

[Max_Killjoy]

Looking at lore, the flower of the SLDF, battle-hardened and to one degree or another, disaffected with Inner Sphere politics, took a significant portion of the Star League Military Industrial Complex (Scientists, Researchers, and other DARPA-types too) our into the Deep Periphery.

And almost immediately built a society just about custom-designed to stifle research or any other sort of change.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

And almost immediately built a society just about custom-designed to stifle research or any other sort of change.

I disagree.

Stifle Military Research?

Not hardly!

Societal and Cultural advances, betterment and refinement?

Here, much was sacrificed. I agree.



Let us not forget we are talking of a game franchise’s Lore. I enjoy such game’s precisely because they push boundaries, require belief suspension and allow me to explore something I enjoy ~ here, Universe-spanning Wargaming.

For me the Clans represent the heart of Quality over Quantity in the short-term... giving way to Quantity/Dynamic-Tactics over Quality/Static-Tactics in the long-term.

Again staying within the context of our game franchise only. :bow:

 

[Vanguard319]

I will take that as a victory, because you still haven't addressed my counter argument, and are now just whining that a bunch of space communists can't possibly improve on a pre-existing technology base. I will throw you a bone and grant you that such a society may not encourage innovation, but to say innovation would be completely impossible in such a society is a fallacy.

Clan culture recognizes and encourages competition, competition by its nature breeds a necessity for anything that can provide dominance over your rivals, and necessity is the mother of invention.

Clan scientists would still eventually improve existing technology, and even innovate given enough time, and 250 years is no small amount of time in terms of technological advancement. Finally, consider that Clan scientists were not being actively murdered by the semi-mystical cultists of space AT&T, which means NONE of that scientific research is being lost or suppressed.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

No, you'll take it as a "victory" because what the limits of what we're allowed to post here in terms of references and parallels prevent me from continuing beyond what I've touched on already.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

I disagree.

Stifle Military Research?

Not hardly!

Societal and Cultural advances, betterment and refinement?

Here, much was sacrificed. I agree.

Beyond the very short term, societies that stifle free thought and open exchange of ideas -- and that describes the Clams to a T -- end up stifling ALL research and scientific advancement, because they don't produce new scientists and inventors and others capable of making those advancements.

Let us not forget we are talking of a game franchise’s Lore. I enjoy such game’s precisely because they push boundaries, require belief suspension and allow me to explore something I enjoy ~ here, Universe-spanning Wargaming.

For me the Clans represent the heart of Quality over Quantity in the short-term... giving way to Quantity/Dynamic-Tactics over Quality/Static-Tactics in the long-term.

Again staying within the context of our game franchise only.

See signature.

The Clams as a combination of society/culture, and technogical powerhouse, hangs it by the neck until dead.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

@Max_Killjoy, we agree to disagree, the recognition of which is something our fine forum permits and encourages.

Fiction, such as the lore form our gaming franchise, need not be constrained by reality...

...I find that reassuring and oft times FUN. : )

 

[Max_Killjoy]

@Max_Killjoy, we agree to disagree, the recognition of which is something our fine forum permits and encourages.

Fiction, such as the lore form our gaming franchise, need not be constrained by reality...

...I find that reassuring and oft times FUN. : )

You and I can disagree cordially, certainly. You've always been quite reasonable in my experience.

More broadly regarding this thread, I understand the risk I take of getting a lot of emotional backlash when I dare say mean things about the Clams.

 

[stjobe]

Remember:

 

[Prussian Havoc]

You and I can disagree cordially, certainly. You've always been quite reasonable in my experience.

More broadly regarding this thread, I understand the risk I take of getting a lot of emotional backlash when I dare say mean things about the Clams.

No more so than when in-the-Spirit-of-the-Game I say mean things about Davions. : )

The “in-the-Spirit-of-the-Game” is a key part of all that.

I really enjoy the seldom embraced corners of BattleTech Lore ~ the Antagonists: the Clans, House Kurita, the Taurian Concordat, the Rim Worlds Republic, and now the Aurigan Directorate.

It comes from my time as an Army Intelligence Officer, I was forever and always taking the part of the OpFor in Company, Battalion, Battalion, Brigade, Division, Corps and Joint Warfighters...


...suspending reality, embracing the fiction and getting on with the process of Warfighting, just gets in the blood after a while, at least in my case. Accepting a “Starting Set of Circumstances” :bow:

 

[wundergoat]

So, on Clan technical advancement: the vast majority of clan-grade military advancements happened during the Golden Century, at which point they started to stagnate and did not start advancing rapidly again until post-invasion. Their culture absolutely stifled scientific advancement, and is specifically called out in Wars of Reaving. According to a clan scientist, the warriors ceased scientific inquiry into particle physics "because everything of worth has been discovered". IMO it indicates that a lot of their advancement was based on SL era research.

That said, this is an inaccurate view, however popular it is with clan haters:

No, instead, the Clans spent all that time under a fascist quasi-military dictatorship, culturally dominated by worship of the past

The clans are far more communist than fascist, leadership is not a dictatorship, and while there is immense respect for the founders it is not the central focus of their culture.

Clan culture abhors waste and living simply is considered virtuous, with minimal resources spent on luxury and thus minimizing wealth inequality. If anything, the ruling warrior caste's focus on honor/virtue means that luxuries are more likely to exist in the hands of the other castes.

Clan leadership is a strange hybrid of meritocratic chain-of-command with limited democracy and appeals through combat trials. Promotion is based primarily on ability (especially in other non-warrior castes), though trials may be held between equivalent candidates or between a leader and subordinate. The clan's council works by vote, though the electorate is generally limited to bloodnamed warriors. Among other things, the clan council elects the khans and sakhans, though those individuals can be challenged for their positions.

If anything defines the clans, it is survival of the fittest. Might makes right could also apply in military situations, and there tends to be a high degree of what could be described as nationalism in their culture. The founders are held in deep reverence and have a major influence in the culture, but its not like their culture is based on the worship of dead heroes.

I feel like a ton of the hate on clan culture looks at the Smoke Jaguars, who were authoritarian and violently repressive to their lower castes. They very much represent an outlier.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

I'd have to bend forum rules to demonstrate how they align with fascism, which isn't really an economic model, but rather tends to adopt the trappings of whatever economic theory is of use at the moment to those in power.

Leave it at this. This isn't just that I don't like the Clams.

The Clams were bad for the game, just as a game. The Clams were bad for the setting, just as a setting. The Clams represent a lack of research into how real-world cultures actually function. And the Clams are repugnant when viewed as a proposal of how to run a society.

The Smoke Jaguars are the most truthful representation of how a society like the Clams actually turns out.