Coat of Arms discussion/requests

[Birger]

I wrote this suggestion in another thread, but I'm going to add it here since is official: my suggestion is fro the CoA of the county of Byzantion, it was historically...a crescent moon with a star! (yes the same of Turkey today).
Here a quote from the original thread:
About CoA of Constantinople (or Byzantion as it's called in the game), I read many times that the original flag of the city was what is actually the flag of Turkey, or something similar: the original simbol was an crescent moon, and Costantine (or some ather emperor) added the star which symbolize venus or Diana for pagans and the Vergin mary for Christians. When the Ottomans conquered the city, they used that flag as the flag of the empire; here the proof, only one link but I found severals (italian also):
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/tr.html
here a quote:
Many traditions explain the star and crescent symbol. It is known that Diana was the patron goddess of Byzantium and that her symbol was a moon. In 330, the Emperor Constantine rededicated the city - which he called Constantinople - to the Virgin Mary, whose star symbol was superimposed over the crescent. In 1453 Constantinople was captured by the Ottoman Turks and renamed Istanbul, but its new rulers may have adopted the existing emblem for their own use"

Other several links:

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa060401a.htm?terms=crescent

http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/24/2464.html

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=49011
very important this upper, is a fatwa!!!

http://archnet.org/forum/view.tcl?message_id=40355

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crescent
this is a dictionary here a quote:
crescent

\Cres"cent\ (kr[e^]s"sent), n. [OE. cressent, cressaunt, crescent (in sense 1), OF. creissant increasing, F. croissant, p. pr. of cro[^i]tre, OF. creistre, fr. L. crescere to increase, v. incho.; akin to creare to create. See Create, and cf. Accrue, Increase, Crescendo.] 1. The increasing moon; the moon in her first quarter, or when defined by a concave and a convex edge; also, applied improperly to the old or decreasing moon in a like state.

2. Anything having the shape of a crescent or new moon.

3. A representation of the increasing moon, often used as an emblem or badge; as: (a) A symbol of Artemis, or Diana. (b) The ancient symbol of Byzantium or Constantinople. Hence: (c) The emblem of the Turkish Empire, adopted after the taking of Constantinople.

and many more links...

About colors, no one says...; I can imagine a flag like the image in the first link (moon and star yellow on white), or moon and star yellow over blue (imperial colour), or moon and star yellow over purple (imperial colour and colour of the city at twilight, when the moon and the planet venus appear togheter).

Actually the flag of the Ottomans looked like this after taking Constantinople, the star was added in the 1780's.
The present Türkey flag only dates back to 1844.

Ottoman flag after taking Constantinople.

NOTE: Flags and research made by MKJ with some help from Tuna if I'm correct.
Link to MKJ's turkish flags: http://jgdahl.tripod.com/turkish.html
Link to thread over in the EU2 forum: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37341&page=93&pp=25

 

[Birger]

Excellent idea MrT, perhaps these regions would work?

North Europe
British Isles
Central Europe
South Europe
East Europe
Asia Minor
Middle East
North Africa

Using present day regions might make it a bit easier to keep track of things.
Cheers

 

[lucaluca]

Actually the flag of the Ottomans looked like this after taking Constantinople, the star was added in the 1780's.
The present Türkey flag only dates back to 1844.

Ottoman flag after taking Constantinople.

NOTE: Flags and research made by MKJ with some help from Tuna if I'm correct.
Link to MKJ's turkish flags: http://jgdahl.tripod.com/turkish.html
Link to thread over in the EU2 forum: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37341&page=93&pp=25

But I'm not talking about the flag of ottomans, I'm talking about the flag of the city of Constantinople BEFORE turkish conquest (so byzantine and even pre-roman); check the links

 

[Birger]

But I'm not talking about the flag of ottomans, I'm talking about the flag of the city of Constantinople BEFORE turkish conquest (so byzantine and even pre-roman); check the links

Well the Ottomans took the flag of Constantinople as their new flag after the siege in 1453, so that should be the flag of Constantinople.
Just wanted to point out that it didn't look like Türkeys flag today, that one dates from the 19th century.

EDIT:
The crescent moon was in fact the symbol of the city of Constantinople (renamed Istanbul by the Turkish Republic) since pre-Ottoman times. The Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II adopted the flag of Constantinople when he conquered the city in 1453 and extinguished the Byzantine Roman Empire.

Constantinople was the capital of Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire. Before Christ it was once sieged by Goths. The Romans defeated the Goths on the first of a lunar month. Therefore, to comemmorate this occasion they added the new moon on the city flag. According to another version (source: Rafael Narbaez, Jr.) the crescent was the symbol of Diana the Roman goddess of the hunt. Constantinople was dedicated to Diana. The Roman Emperor Constatine rededicated the city to the Virgin Mary, whose star symbol was added to the previous crescent.

From here: http://www.maldivesroyalfamily.com/maldives_flag.shtml

EDIT2: (http://flagspot.net/flags/islam.html#con)
The Flag of Constantinople
Constantinople or present Istanbul was the capital of Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire. Before Christ it was once sieged by Goths, when the Romans defeated the Goths, it was first of the lunar month. Therefore, to remember this occasion they added the new crescent on the city flag. Later, the direction of the crescent was inverted because the new crescent faces the pole side of the flag and looked odd. During the course of centuries, this crescent bearing flag spread all over Anatolia (Asian Turkey). Turkic tribes of Central Asia embraced Islam and their different tribes spread westward conquering heartlands of Asia Minor, including parts of Anatolia. Hence, when Ottomans became caliphs their flag was red colored with a green circle in the center and three yellow crescents all facing the right side. Then they altered the flag (this will be discussed in later part of this article).

EDIT3: http://flagspot.net/flags/islam.html#philip
Origin of the Crescent and Star: the attack by Philip on Constantinople?
The Origins of the Islamic Crescent and Star from http://www.gabn.net/hassan/crescent.htm

"The Star and Crescent signifies concentration, openness and victory, as well as sovereignty and divinity. According to tradition, in 339 BC a brilliant waxing moon save Byzantium (now Istanbul) from attack by Philip of Macedon. To mark their gratitude, the citizens adopted the Crescent of Diana as the city's emblem. When the city became the Christian Constantinople in 330 BC, its Crescent assumed the significance of an attribute of the Virgin Mary.

In 1299, conquering what is now Turkey, Sultan Osman had a vision of a crescent moon stretching over the world; it thus became a symbol of the Ottoman dynasty, and when Constantinople fell to Muhammad II in 1453, the crescent came to represent both Islam and the Turkish empire. The star was added by Sultan Selim III in 1793 (its five points being established in 1844)."

This information found in "Signs & Symbols, page 42, by Clare Gibson and is available from Barnes & Noble Books. The ISBN number is 0-7607-0217-9
Giuseppe Bottasini, 28 September 1998

Byzantium was saved from Macedonian troops (under Philip) trying to tunnel in at night during a siege because the crescent moon was shining. They thus erected a statue of Diana, goddess of the moon, whose statues frequently showed her with a crescent moon. This simply remained during the Christian era (as Constantinople) and Muslim (as Istanbul), and spread to the rest of the Ottoman/Muslim world. The legend that Suleiman saw the horns of the crescent moon encompassing the whole world is likewise post facto (or else the crescent would be open to the bottom).
Nathan Lamm, 21 December 2002

 

[lucaluca]

thanx Birger Jarl, we're saying the same thing
The symbols of the city (crescent + star) are the same of the actual turkish flag; colours and relative positions of them in the flag or CoA is yet to be found; I didn't find any image of that, maybe it's impossible to find; that's why I gave my suggestions by considering the flavour of the city itself and of byzantines (I would say no green colour on that CoA, because it's a typical muslim colour, so I gave my suggestions).

 

[Birger]

thanx Birger Jarl, we're saying the same thing
The symbols of the city (crescent + star) are the same of the actual turkish flag; colours and relative positions of them in the flag or CoA is yet to be found; I didn't find any image of that, maybe it's impossible to find; that's why I gave my suggestions by considering the flavour of the city itself and of byzantines (I would say no green colour on that CoA, because it's a typical muslim colour, so I gave my suggestions).

Yeah, I noticed that.
Except one thing, I'm saying that the flag consists of only a crescent.

I'll ask MKJ who researched the Constantinople/Ottoman flag about the colors. I know he scanned it from a book...

 

[lucaluca]

Yeah, I noticed that.
Except one thing, I'm saying that the flag consists of only a crescent.

I'll ask MKJ who researched the Constantinople/Ottoman flag about the colors. I know he scanned it from a book...

From your own quote:

The Roman Emperor Constatine rededicated the city to the Virgin Mary, whose star symbol was added to the previous crescent

sOME OF my links also include the star in the flag;
crescent- symbol of pre-Constantine Byzantium (symbol of the godess Diana)
star- added by CONSTANTINE emperor as symbol of Virgin mary (the star is in reality the planet Venus, called also Luciferus, Ishir, and so on)

If the turks changed the flag, eliminated the star and readded it later, actually now it's not important for us.

Other quotes:
It is not likely that the star on the Constantinople coat of arms before the Turkish conquest was drawn as the Venus star, i.e. fivepointed like or eightpointed like . It might well have been sixpointed, like Jupiter's six-pointed staff.
from the link:http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/20/202.html

oTHER PROOFS:
Symbols of Islam Byzantium (Constantinople, modern Istanbul) was dedicated to Diana, goddess of the hunt, and the crescent was her symbol. In 330 CE, Constantine rededicated the city to the virgin Mary. Mary's symbol was the star and this was added to the previous crescent. When the Turks took Constantinople, they found many star and crescent flags and adopted it as a symbol of good omen (In 339 BCE, Philip of Macedon (the father of Alexander the Great) was stopped from conquering Byzantium because his army was spotted due to a bright crescent moon).
link:http://www.davidicke.net/symbolism/religion/jan2001/religionsymbols.html

 

[lucaluca]

Other link about the star:
http://flagspot.net/flags/tr.html#mean
QUOTE:
"Red has been prominent in Turkish flags for 700 years. The star and crescent are Muslim symbols, but also have a long pre-Islamic past in Asia Minor. The basic form of the national flag was apparently established in 1793 under Sultan Selim III, when the green flags used by the navy were changed to red and a white crescent and multipointed star were added. The five-pointed star dates from approximately 1844. Except for the issuance of design specifications, no change was made when the Ottoman Empire became the Republic of Turkey and the Caliphate (religious authority) was terminated. Many traditions explain the star and crescent symbol. It is known that Diana was the patron goddess of Byzantium and that her symbol was a moon. In 330, the Emperor Constantine rededicated the city - which he called Constantinople - to the Virgin Mary, whose star symbol was superimposed over the crescent. In 1453 Constantinople was captured by the Ottoman Turks and renamed Istanbul, but its new rulers may have adopted the existing emblem for their own use"

So it seems that the first symbol was a crescent; then Constantine added the star; in 1453, ottomans took crescent and multipointed star for their banners, but the star was changed to 5 pointed in 1844; the star of byzantium wasn't probably a 5 points star, but a six points star, and was overimposed on the crescent.

Another link with a coin of Heraclius plus moon and star (maybe it could be a startpoint to draw the CoA)
http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/romaion/i_byz_856_o.jpg
Heraclius (610 - 641 AD)
AE 12 Nummia
619 - 628 AD
SBC 856; Mitchiner ACW 1218, Sellwood ISC 63, Gobl SN VII/8 (plate XIIII/222)
20 mm.
11.89 gm.
Die position=6h
reverse
Obverse: Facing bust with crown surmounted by cross in crescent; star to left, crescent to right.
Reverse: Cross with I to left, B to right; in exergue, 'ALEX'. Mint of Alexandria, Egypt.
Note: This coin was struck by the Sasanian king Khusro II during his occupation of Egypt.

 

[Mad King James]

I'll just pipe in here and say that, while the flag of the city itself was a crescent moon (gold) on red, this was not nor ever was the arms of the city.

Also one must remember that the greek star (that was no longer in use by this time) is 4 pointed, not 5.

In fact, there is only ever one mention of the city having an arms, and that, sadly, is after the Catholic conquest, so we will never know whether these arms predated the fourth crusade or were an invention.

"Gules, cross Or. In each canton, five pennies Or in the form of a saltire"

For those of you heraldically challenged, that's a gold cross on red, with five gold circles in each red square, arranged like the dots on the five side of a die. We know this because Baldwin of Flanders granted the arms of Constantinople to an obscure Flemish municipality who still has those arms today. (Harelbeke if you want to know )

Constantinople, at the time of the fall, actually had, if you will believe it, 4 flags. There was the flag of the Eastern Roman Empire (black two-headed eagle, crowned, on gold) the Paleologus Dynasty flag (st. georges cross quartered with the Paleologus arms red field gold cross and 4 B's) the City flag (gold crescent on red), and finally the banner of arms of the city (which is actually a different thing than a civic flag).

Here's something that will drive me crazy at least. Did you know that EVERY CITY had a civic arms AND a civic flag? The only ones we really know are Hansa towns, but they ALL had them! Not only that, but every nation had merchant flags too, but of those we know absolutely jack squat, except of course the Ottoman one, plain red.

 

[lucaluca]

I'll just pipe in here and say that, while the flag of the city itself was a crescent moon (gold) on red, this was not nor ever was the arms of the city.

Also one must remember that the greek star (that was no longer in use by this time) is 4 pointed, not 5.

In fact, there is only ever one mention of the city having an arms, and that, sadly, is after the Catholic conquest, so we will never know whether these arms predated the fourth crusade or were an invention.

"Gules, cross Or. In each canton, five pennies Or in the form of a saltire"

For those of you heraldically challenged, that's a gold cross on red, with five gold circles in each red square, arranged like the dots on the five side of a die. We know this because Baldwin of Flanders granted the arms of Constantinople to an obscure Flemish municipality who still has those arms today. (Harelbeke if you want to know )

Constantinople, at the time of the fall, actually had, if you will believe it, 4 flags. There was the flag of the Eastern Roman Empire (black two-headed eagle, crowned, on gold) the Paleologus Dynasty flag (st. georges cross quartered with the Paleologus arms red field gold cross and 4 B's) the City flag (gold crescent on red), and finally the banner of arms of the city (which is actually a different thing than a civic flag).

Here's something that will drive me crazy at least. Did you know that EVERY CITY had a civic arms AND a civic flag? The only ones we really know are Hansa towns, but they ALL had them! Not only that, but every nation had merchant flags too, but of those we know absolutely jack squat, except of course the Ottoman one, plain red.

Thanx for your informations; so Paradox should choose between city flag and coat of arm (infact Paleologus arm and empire arm are another thing); since we don't have sure informations about the civic arm, I'm continuing to support my theory of using the civic flag.

 

[Mad King James]

It would probably be a bad idea to use the civic flag as a civic arms, especially since the city did have a civic arms of its own, that we know for a fact was in use by at least 1204.

 

[lucaluca]

It would probably be a bad idea to use the civic flag as a civic arms, especially since the city did have a civic arms of its own, that we know for a fact was in use by at least 1204.

Some fonts say about Coat of Arms:
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/20/202.html
Quote:
crescent with a star sign was also used on the coat of arms of Byzantium, today's Istanbul
It is not likely that the star on the Constantinople coat of arms before the Turkish conquest was drawn as the Venus star, i.e. fivepointed like or eightpointed like . It might well have been sixpointed, like Jupiter's six-pointed staff

 

[Mad King James]

That's not quite true, when it was used, the concept of a 'coat of arms' was completely foreign. What you're thinking of was the roman usage of an icon upon the imperial standard to designate individual units within a legion. The Centuries from Byzantium and later Constantinople used Diana's crescent moon. However you must remember that this never became a coat of arms, the same way the fox or falcon never became the Illyrian coat of arms. It stuck with the city as a sort of unofficial symbol, and was widely used on merchant ships and by citizens as the 'city flag'. However it had little to no official recognition past the early imperial period.

The coat of arms of Constantinople was always the golden cross upon red. Stuff was added to that fundamental design over the years (pennies, b's, crosses, etc) but fundamentally the city retained this basic design.

The coat of arms of the EMPIRE by the way, is different from the city. The Empire as a whole should have the black imperial eagle on gold, which is sadly (and unsurprizingly) the same as the "other" empire.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Paradox's general directive (I'm paraphrasing) to the betas who worked on this project was to use the civic arms of the largest city in the region - "largest" city being roughly interpretted as the most significant one when taking the full 400-year time span of CK into account. In cases where the civic arms changed use the most recognisable one, or the one that was employed for the most years during that span. Avoid using dynastic/familial arms unless absolutely necessary or so historically dominating that its exclusion would be an eye-sore.

 

[lucaluca]

That's not quite true, when it was used, the concept of a 'coat of arms' was completely foreign. What you're thinking of was the roman usage of an icon upon the imperial standard to designate individual units within a legion. The Centuries from Byzantium and later Constantinople used Diana's crescent moon. However you must remember that this never became a coat of arms, the same way the fox or falcon never became the Illyrian coat of arms. It stuck with the city as a sort of unofficial symbol, and was widely used on merchant ships and by citizens as the 'city flag'. However it had little to no official recognition past the early imperial period.

The coat of arms of Constantinople was always the golden cross upon red. Stuff was added to that fundamental design over the years (pennies, b's, crosses, etc) but fundamentally the city retained this basic design.

The coat of arms of the EMPIRE by the way, is different from the city. The Empire as a whole should have the black imperial eagle on gold, which is sadly (and unsurprizingly) the same as the "other" empire.

But you and your font said that this cross upon red was described by latin armies, so we're NOT sure about their validity; how can you say "was always" if we're not sure?. The only thing we're sure about is the crescent+star symbol, which some fonts say was used either as CoA and civic flag.; however, considering what MrT said, the civic flag is even more important for the game.
I also think you're misunderstanding : the cross upon purple with 4 B on corners was the CoA of the Empire, and that's universally recognized; the doubled headed eagle (sometimes, but only sometimes 1 headed) was the symbol of some families (palaiologos) but was NEVER used as CoA of the empire (unless during last years).