[ideas for a new game?] CK’s engine as a base for a renaissance/baroque setting?
Hello everyone! Being a student of history, I must say that – like ageod’s games - CK II is one of the most intriguing games that I’ve ever played. One reason that it is complex in a positive way - it gives you quite a lot of options that are hard to measure out because the world is unpredictable and the options are equivalent. This also provides for an interesting AI. Moreover, it’s the only game that makes a serious attempt to capture the workings and effects of premodern rule and governance. I really like the chaos of titles, „multi-vassals“, claimants and the overall depence of the player on other characters. In this respect I have to say that CK II makes better job than EU III which relies quite heavily on very abstract macro-factors (most importantly „stability“) and - from a historical perspective - gives the player by far too much power (full control over tax-levels, research, trade policy, national ideas, etc.). EU III also restricts diplomacy primarily to an anachronistical inter-national level while missing out the inter-personal and/or inter-dynastical level. In contrast to that, the borders between external and internal affairs are blurred in CK II, which is great!
As my main area of interest are not the middle ages but the premodern age from ca. 1450 to 1800, I was thinking about CKs II potential in such a setting, roughly from 1450 to 1700 (it’s getting more difficult past 1700). In fact I think that the workings of CK II fit quite well to this age, probably even better than they fit to the middle ages. Here I want to present some very sketchy ideas of what could/should be changed/added from the perspective of realism (i.e. not neccessarily game balancing) if CK IIs engine was transferred to the renaissance and baroque ages. Please consider that I don’t know how moddable this game is and that I don’t have any knowledge about modding myself. As a result, some of the ideas might be nothing but utopia. In fact, I think that my proposed ideas actually call for a different game or an add-on. But maybe some talented modder will pick up some parts or inspirations of it
. I also apologize for my english – I’m not a native speaker.
I always give a very short introduction in what ways the mentioned aspects are meant to influence the game and why I consider them as important parts of premodern rule. I also try to make some concrete suggestions of how the aspects could be implemented, but the "idea" is more important for me in this topic than the concrete realisation.
POLITICAL HIERARCHIES (ESTATES)
COURT / YOUR HIGH NOBILITY
THE CONFESSIONAL DIVIDE
ARMIES
COLONIALISM
AMBASSADORS AND THE THEATRUM PRAECEDENTIAE (PRESTIGE)
ALLIANCES
THE OTTOMAN BORDER
(PARLIAMENTARISM)
(IMMERSION)
(VARIETY IN COURT STRUCTURES, SIMONY)
(YOUR COURTIERS' INFLUENCE ON YOUR DECISIONS? ADVISORY BODIES vs. PRIVATE SECRETARIES/ROYAL FAVOURITES)
POLITICAL HIERACHIES (ESTATES)
Very generally speaking, the late middle ages saw lords solidifying and intensifying their rule over conclosed territories, extending and fostering their jurisdictions, making formerly independent cities and nobles dependent („landsässig“). They were some attempts to stop the power-expansion of the territorial lords (prominently some knight-alliances/associations in Swabia), but the general tide was quite clear. Formerly independent lower nobles (knights) succumbed to the power of the territorial lord, acquiring positions and rewards at the lord’s court in return.
In CK II, independent cities and nobles on the sub-county-level hardly ever exist (at least according to my gaming-experience so far). 99% of the mayors/bishops/barons are vassals of their respective countys’ lord (also, there don’t seem to be any imperial cities (Reichsstädte) at all). So, actually, you can say that the process of creating conclosed territories is already finished in CK II. In this respect, the game fits well to the renaissance and later epoques, but not to the high middle ages.
However, even though the nobility, cities and clergy had to accept that they were now subordinate to a territorial lord, they were far from powerless. They united as the „estates“ (Landstände) of a county (to speak in CKs II terms), forming a political counterweight to the territorial lord. For example, in Autria’s case, the habsburg emperors, as archdukes of Austria, had to negotiate with the estates of lower Austria and upper Austria. Generally speaking, the territorial lord depended on the estates whenever he wanted to collect taxes (the „contributionale“) and/or wanted to recruit an army. Another prominent example showing the power of the estates is the outbreak of what would later be known as the 30 years war: it all started as the estates of Bohemia rebelled against their territorial lord.
I was very pleased to see that the current mechanics can represent the power-relations between lord and estates very well! It’s already in the game! Your taxes and your levies depend on your vassals’ opinion. But I’d create a new and very powerfull type of vassal/holding: the estates. Each county should have one holding of the "estates"-type, which should be very powerful in terms of tax and levy power, as estates don’t represent individual powers but rather the collective of nobles/cities/clergy within the county. However, for the same reason, one would need to adapt the diplomatic options (e.g. grant/revoke concessions of confession) and heritage mechanics for such an estates-holding/vassal. You certainly can't arrange marriages for estates and you can't invite them to court, etc. I guess one could just add some conditions to political options to have two diplomancy-gorups (estates-collective versus individual noble)? The rebellion or plotting of a county’s estates should be a very very dangerous situation for any lord, and also the religion of a countys’ estates should be quite important when it comes to the relalationship with their lord. What I’d also consider very important and realistic is to make levy- and tax-laws county-specific instead of realm-specific. Demanding taxes from your estates in times of peace should give you a big relation malus.
I would suggest to replace the "city"-holding-type with the "estates"-holding-type, which represents the collective of cities, nobles and clergy within the country and should thus be extremely powerfull in terms of tax and man-power. Every county should have exactly 1 such estates-holding, not more, not less. You should never be allowed to have a "estates"-holding as part of your demesne (by means of an extremely high "wrong holding type penalty?). All the other holdings in a county should be turned into "nobles", who represent the most influential and powerful nobles within the county (i.e.: I would drop bishops completetly). The more nobles, the more interesting the "court"-aspect of the game will be (see the following post). The nobles will present the most important lordships within the county. Of course, they should be connected to the estates in some way (see the chapter "Court" in the next post) because they formed part of the estates and their opinion would have been very important.
I've also thought of setting the estates at the "county"-level, but this is impossible as it would mean that the territorial lord would always have the estates-holding as part of his demesne, if I'm correct?
* sorry for the typo in Bohemia
Hello everyone! Being a student of history, I must say that – like ageod’s games - CK II is one of the most intriguing games that I’ve ever played. One reason that it is complex in a positive way - it gives you quite a lot of options that are hard to measure out because the world is unpredictable and the options are equivalent. This also provides for an interesting AI. Moreover, it’s the only game that makes a serious attempt to capture the workings and effects of premodern rule and governance. I really like the chaos of titles, „multi-vassals“, claimants and the overall depence of the player on other characters. In this respect I have to say that CK II makes better job than EU III which relies quite heavily on very abstract macro-factors (most importantly „stability“) and - from a historical perspective - gives the player by far too much power (full control over tax-levels, research, trade policy, national ideas, etc.). EU III also restricts diplomacy primarily to an anachronistical inter-national level while missing out the inter-personal and/or inter-dynastical level. In contrast to that, the borders between external and internal affairs are blurred in CK II, which is great!
As my main area of interest are not the middle ages but the premodern age from ca. 1450 to 1800, I was thinking about CKs II potential in such a setting, roughly from 1450 to 1700 (it’s getting more difficult past 1700). In fact I think that the workings of CK II fit quite well to this age, probably even better than they fit to the middle ages. Here I want to present some very sketchy ideas of what could/should be changed/added from the perspective of realism (i.e. not neccessarily game balancing) if CK IIs engine was transferred to the renaissance and baroque ages. Please consider that I don’t know how moddable this game is and that I don’t have any knowledge about modding myself. As a result, some of the ideas might be nothing but utopia. In fact, I think that my proposed ideas actually call for a different game or an add-on. But maybe some talented modder will pick up some parts or inspirations of it
I always give a very short introduction in what ways the mentioned aspects are meant to influence the game and why I consider them as important parts of premodern rule. I also try to make some concrete suggestions of how the aspects could be implemented, but the "idea" is more important for me in this topic than the concrete realisation.
POLITICAL HIERARCHIES (ESTATES)
COURT / YOUR HIGH NOBILITY
THE CONFESSIONAL DIVIDE
ARMIES
COLONIALISM
AMBASSADORS AND THE THEATRUM PRAECEDENTIAE (PRESTIGE)
ALLIANCES
THE OTTOMAN BORDER
(PARLIAMENTARISM)
(IMMERSION)
(VARIETY IN COURT STRUCTURES, SIMONY)
(YOUR COURTIERS' INFLUENCE ON YOUR DECISIONS? ADVISORY BODIES vs. PRIVATE SECRETARIES/ROYAL FAVOURITES)
POLITICAL HIERACHIES (ESTATES)
Very generally speaking, the late middle ages saw lords solidifying and intensifying their rule over conclosed territories, extending and fostering their jurisdictions, making formerly independent cities and nobles dependent („landsässig“). They were some attempts to stop the power-expansion of the territorial lords (prominently some knight-alliances/associations in Swabia), but the general tide was quite clear. Formerly independent lower nobles (knights) succumbed to the power of the territorial lord, acquiring positions and rewards at the lord’s court in return.
In CK II, independent cities and nobles on the sub-county-level hardly ever exist (at least according to my gaming-experience so far). 99% of the mayors/bishops/barons are vassals of their respective countys’ lord (also, there don’t seem to be any imperial cities (Reichsstädte) at all). So, actually, you can say that the process of creating conclosed territories is already finished in CK II. In this respect, the game fits well to the renaissance and later epoques, but not to the high middle ages.
However, even though the nobility, cities and clergy had to accept that they were now subordinate to a territorial lord, they were far from powerless. They united as the „estates“ (Landstände) of a county (to speak in CKs II terms), forming a political counterweight to the territorial lord. For example, in Autria’s case, the habsburg emperors, as archdukes of Austria, had to negotiate with the estates of lower Austria and upper Austria. Generally speaking, the territorial lord depended on the estates whenever he wanted to collect taxes (the „contributionale“) and/or wanted to recruit an army. Another prominent example showing the power of the estates is the outbreak of what would later be known as the 30 years war: it all started as the estates of Bohemia rebelled against their territorial lord.
I was very pleased to see that the current mechanics can represent the power-relations between lord and estates very well! It’s already in the game! Your taxes and your levies depend on your vassals’ opinion. But I’d create a new and very powerfull type of vassal/holding: the estates. Each county should have one holding of the "estates"-type, which should be very powerful in terms of tax and levy power, as estates don’t represent individual powers but rather the collective of nobles/cities/clergy within the county. However, for the same reason, one would need to adapt the diplomatic options (e.g. grant/revoke concessions of confession) and heritage mechanics for such an estates-holding/vassal. You certainly can't arrange marriages for estates and you can't invite them to court, etc. I guess one could just add some conditions to political options to have two diplomancy-gorups (estates-collective versus individual noble)? The rebellion or plotting of a county’s estates should be a very very dangerous situation for any lord, and also the religion of a countys’ estates should be quite important when it comes to the relalationship with their lord. What I’d also consider very important and realistic is to make levy- and tax-laws county-specific instead of realm-specific. Demanding taxes from your estates in times of peace should give you a big relation malus.
I would suggest to replace the "city"-holding-type with the "estates"-holding-type, which represents the collective of cities, nobles and clergy within the country and should thus be extremely powerfull in terms of tax and man-power. Every county should have exactly 1 such estates-holding, not more, not less. You should never be allowed to have a "estates"-holding as part of your demesne (by means of an extremely high "wrong holding type penalty?). All the other holdings in a county should be turned into "nobles", who represent the most influential and powerful nobles within the county (i.e.: I would drop bishops completetly). The more nobles, the more interesting the "court"-aspect of the game will be (see the following post). The nobles will present the most important lordships within the county. Of course, they should be connected to the estates in some way (see the chapter "Court" in the next post) because they formed part of the estates and their opinion would have been very important.
I've also thought of setting the estates at the "county"-level, but this is impossible as it would mean that the territorial lord would always have the estates-holding as part of his demesne, if I'm correct?


* sorry for the typo in Bohemia
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