• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

zeruosi

Colonel
20 Badges
Oct 12, 2024
1.030
3.589
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
As you can see, this is a voting post. There are too many different suggestions flooding the forum, which may make it difficult for developers to collect information. A better solution is to use a voting post to centralize the information.
Just like the voting post I posted before, your reactions is your preferred voting scheme.

  • helpful: Separate Confucianism, Taoism, Chinese folk religion, Korean Muism, and Vietnamese folk religion, just like Shinto in Japan, and no longer use the mixed - religion approach.
  • agree: Use the naming scheme of "Three Teachings / San Jiao". However, this may be overly centered around China.
  • respectfully disagree: Maintain the status quo and keep it in the state of Buddhism. At most, the state of Buddhism may be split up a little.
  • like: Adopt the Rites - based / Liism approach, although this is somewhat ambiguously defined.
  • love: Adopt the Blessing - Seeking / Qifu Faith Approach, mainly characterized by the syncretism of folk religions.
  • haha: Adopt the Incense - Burning Faith Scheme, as it is the form of worship in all religions in East Asia.
These are all the proposals I've come across so far. If you have your own ideas, feel free to contribute.

edit:Deleted the pictures that might lead to unnecessary arguments.
edit2:Added pictures of traditional attire for decoration.
1.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • 32
  • 30
  • 3
  • 2Love
  • 1Like
Reactions:
The political implications of that food map are a little wild, because it implies that both East Eurkestan and Tibet are as independent as Japan from China, but also that Korea is part of North China and North Vietnam part of South China.

Unrelated to religion sure but it is funny.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
The political implications of that food map are a little wild, because it implies that both East Eurkestan and Tibet are as independent as Japan from China, but also that Korea is part of North China and North Vietnam part of South China.

Unrelated to religion sure but it is funny.
I'm aware of this. After all, it's a creation of Reddit. But I couldn't find a relatively suitable picture, so I ended up using this one.....
 
I think confucianism, chinese folk religion and taoism could just be merged for one Chinese religion (with Japan, Korea and Vietnam having access to appropriate confucian and taoist mechanics within their own religion) but otherwise the first one is first place for me and then three teachings (as long as Japan isn't given a special magic exception) second.

Edit: Also a lot of people seem to want EU4 style confucianism back, so maybe that should be included as an option.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
  • 2
Reactions:
As many have said in older threads, religion in east Asia generally doesn’t work quite the same as in other places. People do not divide themselves based on their religious beliefs in the same way you can have a clear cut difference between Muslims, Christians, and Hindus. I believe using the Three Teachings (or other names for it) as a way of representing a collection of East Asian religions is the way to go. Who knows, maybe you could have a triangular “slider” as a mechanic similar to how Islam has a linear piety bar.
 
  • 9Like
  • 2
  • 1Love
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Could you link to the posts originally proposing the various options? I don't remember seeing the last three suggestions, but I'm interested in learning more about them.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
We're probably too far in development for the devs to be willing to make them into separate faiths, even though that's the option I would prefer. I think it would be perfectly fine to have separate faiths, where the syncreticism and tolerance is represented through the unique mechanics of the relevant religions and cultures.

I think we see so many disagreements over the name because it's a silly category to begin with. If it has to be a single faith then I'd prefer a generic name like "Eastern" (like the EU4 religious group) to match the fact that it is a generic category.
 
  • 6Like
  • 1
Reactions:
helpful: Separate Confucianism, Taoism, Chinese folk religion, Korean Muism, and Vietnamese folk religion, just like Shinto in Japan, and no longer use the mixed - religion approach.

This to me is as bad as naming the religion Buddhism. Because the reality is, that the distinction between Taoism/Confucianism/Buddhism/folk religion is going to end up being fictional. You can't at all split the Chinese population at this time between Taoists, folk religion followers and Buddhists because that divide didn't exist. The people who were genuinely exclusively Buddhists or exclusively Taoists were the exception, not the rule. And even among these, you still see the proliferation of mutual influences and their existence in a larger religious sphere. Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism covered often different aspects of life, different aspects of belief and people gravitated between them constantly. Folk religion was both the thing that gave birth to Taoism and Confucianism, and a practice that was created from them - folk religion intermixed a Buddhist afterlife with a Daoist celestial hierarchy and priorities with Confucian familial values.

Confucianism, folk religion, Chinese Buddhism and Daoism are the manifestations of a single religion. This isn't a matter of syncretism, but that all these currents were formulated within an existing religious framework that dictated their practices and theology. It isn't very different from the Greco-Roman religion that you saw in the final days of the Roman Empire, before getting replaced by Christianity, where you had three manifestations of religion: mystery cults, philosophical religions (like Platonism, Stoicism, etc.), the centralised imperial cult and the popular approaches to faith.

For any interested in reading into Chinese religion, this book provides a good overview:
https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Religion-Contextual-Xinzhong-Yao/dp/1847064760
 
  • 12
  • 4Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
helpful: Separate Confucianism, Taoism, Chinese folk religion, Korean Muism, and Vietnamese folk religion, just like Shinto in Japan, and no longer use the mixed - religion approach.

My opinion of what really would kinda work is stated with the mod I participated in making for EU4. I largely designed how the Confucianism is branched in that mod. Although later last year I partially retired myself for work reasons (and lack of energy, since I was one of 2, relatively, major devs since 2018).

To those of you never play or not able to play due to localisation problem (I did try enligh-lisation it since I have been living in UK for 8+ yrs, but I failed due to the text size and the laziness), my answer is to split Confucianism in three: Lixueism (the Cheng–Zhu school), Yangmingism (just Yangmingism) and Jingxueism (Philology or Exegesis). Each referring to specific branches of Confucianism, and were ideological drives to policies and moral codes practiced by people (from court to countryside) at that time.

The only addition, based on my idea of how things would go, is making Confucianism and its variety as "upper class religion" while making "Chinese/East Asian Paganism" or some representation of it the "folks' religion". Taoism, Mahayana Buddism would be as the same tier as the "folks' religion". Moreover, Shinto in Japan, back in the days of Shungunate, is more or less a "folks' religion", while noble society closely follows Mahayana Buddism.

But, back in real world, as I stated in other threads, the devs have been openly down-playing religion in this version of the game, based on what they said back in their dev-diaries. So, idk, this thread might be a "lost cause" already.

ps. for Sanjiao, no, I don't think that's a good phracing. Too vague and there are dozen other reasons I can think of. I'd rather just have Confucianism.
 
Last edited:
  • 5
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
ps. for Sanjiao, no, I don't think that's a good phracing. Too vague and there are dozen other reasons I can think of. I'd rather just have Confucianism.
Extending from this, what I don’t like in the Sanjiao idea is that - this name isn’t informative. Even in Chinese, 三教 means “three teachings”, but which three?

In any history textbook that mentions this, I dare say, the textbook would tell you that’s a collective “movement” involving dozens of Confucianism scholars, Buddhism monks and Taoism clergies, than specified school of thought. Not to mention here you want to refer this as a “religion” or “faith” held by pop of all estates.

So, as the history records would tell you. Most “Sanjiao movement” would be characterised by Confucianism scholars merge teachings, values and concepts from the other two into Confucianism moral codes and rites. Why don’t we just make Confucianism?

To pop other than scholars officials, why don’t we just set them as Buddhists or Taoists or Traditional Paganists (民间信仰) or whatever accurate faith they had back in the days?

The real question is - What’s stopping us from doing so?
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
The problem, as it always has been, is that Europa Universalis's conception of religon is based on the idea of "confession" which works extremely well for depicting Europe with it's hundreds of religious wars and heresies, and for similar reasons the middle east, but kind of falls apart everywhere else.

For China, I think we need to square the following:
A) A system that has multiple interlocking traditions, each with their own philosophical schools, temples and practitioners.
B) A system that could in some cases quite tolerant (EG towards islam) and in other cases extremely repressive (Christianity, Buddhism in Korea).
C) A system that can interact with other regions that practice such religions in a more single minded way (EG South East asian buddhism).

Personally, I think the best approach is for their to be a state level religion, and then seperate pop level "Religions". The population would be listed as "Syncretic", and there would be separate temples and clergies for the various religious traditions within the empire (with some pops being mono-religioned).

The monarch would be able to determine tolerance levels for the different religious traditions of the empire, and this system would be used at a minimum for China, Japan and Korea (but also likely Hinduism and Buddhist states as well, and maybe also further afield like hellenistic pagans as well).

The monarch would have a state ideology, that they can at a cost switch to another tolerated ideology (in China, some monarchs favoured confucianism, others favoured Taoism, others favoured buddhism). If they wish, they can choose to suppress the other religious traditions and shift their state to being a western style "single confession" state, which might have advantages in terms of control.

Finally, each "School" would have an influence score based on the number of religious buildings and adherents in the realm.

Here's a potential example(not intended to be historically accurate):
Ming China
State religion: Neo-Confucianism
Favoured schools: Taoism, Mahayana Buddhism, Chinese Paganism, Ancestor Worship
Disfavoured schools: Islam, Shinto/Japanese paganism, Tibetan Buddhism, Judaism
Banned schools: Catholicism, Animism, Tengriism.
Population: 90% Syncretic, 2% muslim, 1% catholic, small numbers in the other categories (representing clergy/monastic populations).

Each school should be it's own "international organisation", and each should have different levels of influence. Exceptionally influential schools will draw more of the population to not be "syncretic" and become more "single schooled", and certain schools might have rivalries with other schools. Keeping them balanced and having good relations with all of them should grant benefits, especially to control and happier estates.

Choosing which schools are "state religion" and favoured/disfavoured should grant varying benefits but come with varying costs, but this should be more about stability and control and less about stacking modifiers. You might want to intentionally disfavour a school because it makes your other schools happier (EG everyone might get unhappy if catholic missionaries start converting people all over the place and catholicism is judged to be a "threat").

Likewise, certain schools will also not play well with this tolerance system and be inherently single confessional, and hence be harder to manage (Islam and Christianity being good examples, but also certain radical forms of Buddhism like the White Lotus sect or Jodo Shinshu Buddhism/Ikko Ikki).
 
  • 5
  • 1Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
To pop other than scholars officials, why don’t we just set them as Buddhists or Taoists or Traditional Paganists (民间信仰) or whatever accurate faith they had back in the days?

Because the people didn't have an accurate "faith". Making them belong to a certain faith is going to be a fictional construct. These people were neither Buddhists, Daoist or members of the folk religion. An individual could one day visit a Buddhist monastery and the next be seeking assistance from Daoist rituals, and the next honouring his ancestors or an immortal in a vaguely similar way he would make a devotion to a bodhisattva- using incense and offerings.

Even among the scholar-officials, I wouldn't necessarilly label them as only Confucianists. For instance, it was typical for scholar-officials to perform spirit-writing séances and make prayers to Wenchang 文昌王, the god of scholars and literature. Are these practices aligned with Confucianism or folk religion? Wenchang has often been called a Daoist deity, does that make these scholars also Daoists?

Lines can't be drawn because the Chinese populace adhered to a single "Chinese religion", not to Buddhism, Daoism or Confucianism necessarily. Within that religion, there were the manifestations of Confucianism, East Asian Buddhism and Daoism. The schools of Neo-Confucianism you mention are schools within Confucianism, which itself is a philosophical religion within a much larger "Chinese religion". This "Chinese religion" is contrasted with foreign religions - like Tibetan Buddhism, which was known at this time in China as 喇嘛教 lama jiao and treated as a foreign religion, as opposed to Chinese Buddhism 佛教 fo jiao, or like Islam.
 
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
An individual could one day visit a Buddhist monastery and the next be seeking assistance from Daoist rituals, and the next honouring his ancestors or an immortal in a vaguely similar way he would make a devotion to a bodhisattva- using incense and offerings.
Good insight. But that’s a major characteristic of “Confucianism”. Way back to Confucianism’s dawn time.

However, to begin, I have to clarify I agree about 80%~90% of what you said. The only thing disagreeing is that I think the syncretic is an evidence that “Confucianism” is the dominant force governing the ideological side of Chinese society. Otherwise, you have no explanation for “why Chinese and Korean or any other eastern Asian culture become so syncretic” at the first place.

This is only my conclusion. There are evidence arguing both ways.

Below this I’ll discuss why I think that in Chinese since my English isn’t good enough to make lengthly religion Chinese history discussion in 3AM. I’ll come back with revised English version later today:

我的观点是——在任何尺度下,把东亚,或者说中国的“信仰”描绘为“三教合流”,都是一种懒政。

为什么?

首先,我们都应该同意。只要系统性研究中国历史,就知道,无论在乡约研究、民间主祭、乡村习俗还是士大夫的意识形态上,儒家经典,四书五经,都是占绝对领导地位的。

其次,就乡间神明来说。地方神祇杂交实在是信仰的常态。佛教和印度教的通用神祇不胜枚举。亚伯拉罕三教的仪轨圣地也互相交叉。基督教国家内部,每年四月还举行日耳曼多神教的春季女神庆典名之曰“复活节”。民间崇拜拜千手耶稣道尊实在不能认为是什么信仰不清的证明。

就学术上来说。至少我从来没有看到过把“三教合流”的“三教”作为一个信仰名字的说法。你都名义上写了“三教”,总不可能是一教。再者讲,自董仲舒“罢黜百家,独尊儒术”开始。儒家士大夫公开主祭各路神明就是常态,这也是儒家士大夫维持政权和知识垄断的手段。这种状态几乎贯穿了中国历史。

国内史学界从杨宽的《西周史》、李泽厚的《论语今读》到近年来的新研究,也会告诉你中国儒家的一个核心论点就是把信仰“人化”。“黄帝三百年”变成黄帝治理一百年,制度延续一百年,人民怀念他一百年。这样的人化解释。这种人化和“敬鬼神而远之”的态度,就是继承了周礼精神的儒家“本体论”——即讨论本体无意义,天堂和地狱只是“人伦”的附庸。

周人“以德配天”。儒家莫不如是。

同时,西周践祚开始,就把旧商的祭祀团主导的鬼神崇拜逐步迁移为贵族和家臣主导的天命和祖先祭祀。至春秋晚期和战国时期,社会从国野氏族的生产关系过渡到小农家庭耕作的社会,更是把这一运动推向高潮。儒家本身就是把祭祀和实务官员分流而产生的。到了汉朝,专注于世俗道德规范、君臣父子的家庭社会秩序的儒家,又从阴阳家、道家借来天人感应和五行始终说。建立了一个完整自洽,包含精神和世俗的政教合一的理论体系。

在这个体系里,祭司及其观察和依赖的神明已经被从日常事务中摘除。对人唯一有宰制权力的只有来自自耕农乡村社会的“人伦”道德秩序。其他宗教带来的道德观念,也要服从于人伦秩序。所以当天主教教宗拒绝中国信徒祭祀祖先的时候,这个宗教就被封禁了。

这个体系在南北朝受西来佛教和本土道教所冲击。加上传承自起码秦末的中国门阀家族在南北朝和隋唐到五代解体。所以唐宋政治改革同时也伴随着思想改革。

在这个改革过程中,起到主导地位的还是儒家士大夫。程朱理学从道家借来世界的本体论“气”,从佛教借来轮回和因果等理念构建格物思辨(过度简化地说),但是其根本道理仍然是为了维护“天道有常,不为尧存,不为桀亡”的儒家道德秩序。所以南宋亡至有明一代,士绅作为实质的乡村大家长,权力不断扩大。可以吃绝户、助诉讼,控制族产、组建乡约共同体,战时召集团练。

而无论什么时候,乡间社日主祭绝对是国家士大夫。要么是乡村儒家士绅。而只有公开的佛教、道教仪式,或者死者出殡,会按照佛道等宗教来。这就是儒家给其他宗教施舍的“敬鬼神而远之”的自留地。

相对于只在神学仪式上制造影响的佛道信仰。中国社会的父子兄弟的家庭孝悌观,师生的恩义观,君臣的效忠观,再到春秋决狱、亲亲相隐、忠孝节义,从乡村到朝廷,无不是儒家所规定。甚至什么是“淫祠“什么是“正教“,也要看这个寺庙在当地能不能起到帮助儒家士绅统治的作用。这不是信仰,那所谓的信仰在中国就根本没有影响力。

另,我提民间信仰,就是相对于儒家士大夫存在的会道门。这就是另一个体系了。自宋代以来,因为旧中国大门阀士族退出历史舞台,宋明官僚士大夫和地方士绅只剩下科举这一制度化晋升体系。因此,官吏殊途,官民对立逐渐加重。民间自治团体开始泛滥。儒家士绅自范仲淹开始倡导乡约。而小农、佃户则追随乡村会道门。

会道门的特色就是经书乱写,但是组织严密。仍突出的是中国文明自周制礼乐到儒家兴起而来的,“实用理性“和“人化“的信仰。宋元的明教、白莲教,明代白莲教、闻香教、罗祖教,清代白莲教、天理教、收元教,乃至最后的太平天国的拜上帝教。都是组织严密,经书却乱写的会道门。

也正因如此,我建议信仰分为“官方信仰”和“民间信仰”。两个种类。民间信仰你可以填“融合信仰”,也可以根据实际的会道门、教派历史,填写佛道景明等宗教。

现代国学对儒家“无害化处理”,把四书五经变成“国学”淡化其儒家经书属性。是现代的文化研究。谈到古代社会的模拟,儒家及其支流无疑在上层占据主导地位。
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:
I'm more for "Three Teachings" over separating the various East Asian faiths because, if we were to separate Confucianism, Chinese Folk Religion, Daoism, Buddhism, Korean Shamanism and so on, we'd have the issue of having to start splitting the local pops into separate religious communities, which if not impossible should be basically something entirely arbitrary. If in a province there were 10000 people, it wasn't as simple as to say that 5000 were Confucians, 3000 were Buddhist, 1500 Daoist and 500 animists, because that's not how it really worked. The reality on the ground was that most people followed a blend of each of those moral/religious systems, and as the game expects each pop to have exactly one religion it can only ever lead to a fundamentally incorrect depiction of religious demographics in East Asia.

Three Teachings and the other options have their own issues, but at least they manage to establish the idea that there's a general shared belief system made up of multiple philosophies and religions, and that at the pop level many people actively follow several of them at once.

Shinto in Japan being a separate thing can work out because in a sense religion in Japan was already a little different from mainland Asia. Buddhism and folk religion were a lot more dominant in Japan compared to the role that Confucianism and Daoism played in the mainland, and this led Japan to become a country mostly dominated by Buddhism alone with Shinto elements compared to mainland Asia where stronger opposition to Buddhism existed.
 
  • 5
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Three Teachings and the other options have their own issues, but at least they manage to establish the idea that there's a general shared belief system made up of multiple philosophies and religions, and that at the pop level many people actively follow several of them at once.

This is my point in other treads, but since this one is about ideas on religion so I think I’d say a bit more.

The thing I got with “Three teaching” is that it says “three” in its name. So, that’s 3 not 1 anyway. Why not just make Confucianism the name? Since, that’s the dominating part of it anyway.

Chinese rural people could pay tribute to one deity or another yes. But, the very moment they left those temples, they went back to the real world that’s dominated by Confucianism values and rules.

You can think of an imperial Chinese peasant with no Buddha, but you can’t think of a peasant without their ancestors. The latter my friend, is a line drawn by Confucianism.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Good insight. But that’s a major characteristic of “Confucianism”. Way back to Confucianism’s dawn time.

However, to begin, I have to clarify I agree about 80%~90% of what you said. The only thing disagreeing is that I think the syncretic is an evidence that “Confucianism” is the dominant force governing the ideological side of Chinese society. Otherwise, you have no explanation for “why Chinese and Korean or any other eastern Asian culture become so syncretic” at the first place.

This is only my conclusion. There are evidence arguing both ways.

Below this I’ll discuss why I think that in Chinese since my English isn’t good enough to make lengthly religion Chinese history discussion in 3AM. I’ll come back with revised English version later today:

我的观点是——在任何尺度下,把东亚,或者说中国的“信仰”描绘为“三教合流”,都是一种懒政。

为什么?

首先,我们都应该同意。只要系统性研究中国历史,就知道,无论在乡约研究、民间主祭、乡村习俗还是士大夫的意识形态上,儒家经典,四书五经,都是占绝对领导地位的。

其次,就乡间神明来说。地方神祇杂交实在是信仰的常态。佛教和印度教的通用神祇不胜枚举。亚伯拉罕三教的仪轨圣地也互相交叉。基督教国家内部,每年四月还举行日耳曼多神教的春季女神庆典名之曰“复活节”。民间崇拜拜千手耶稣道尊实在不能认为是什么信仰不清的证明。

就学术上来说。至少我从来没有看到过把“三教合流”的“三教”作为一个信仰名字的说法。你都名义上写了“三教”,总不可能是一教。再者讲,自董仲舒“罢黜百家,独尊儒术”开始。儒家士大夫公开主祭各路神明就是常态,这也是儒家士大夫维持政权和知识垄断的手段。这种状态几乎贯穿了中国历史。

国内史学界从杨宽的《西周史》、李泽厚的《论语今读》到近年来的新研究,也会告诉你中国儒家的一个核心论点就是把信仰“人化”。“黄帝三百年”变成黄帝治理一百年,制度延续一百年,人民怀念他一百年。这样的人化解释。这种人化和“敬鬼神而远之”的态度,就是继承了周礼精神的儒家“本体论”——即讨论本体无意义,天堂和地狱只是“人伦”的附庸。

周人“以德配天”。儒家莫不如是。

同时,西周践祚开始,就把旧商的祭祀团主导的鬼神崇拜逐步迁移为贵族和家臣主导的天命和祖先祭祀。至春秋晚期和战国时期,社会从国野氏族的生产关系过渡到小农家庭耕作的社会,更是把这一运动推向高潮。儒家本身就是把祭祀和实务官员分流而产生的。到了汉朝,专注于世俗道德规范、君臣父子的家庭社会秩序的儒家,又从阴阳家、道家借来天人感应和五行始终说。建立了一个完整自洽,包含精神和世俗的政教合一的理论体系。

在这个体系里,祭司及其观察和依赖的神明已经被从日常事务中摘除。对人唯一有宰制权力的只有来自自耕农乡村社会的“人伦”道德秩序。其他宗教带来的道德观念,也要服从于人伦秩序。所以当天主教教宗拒绝中国信徒祭祀祖先的时候,这个宗教就被封禁了。

这个体系在南北朝受西来佛教和本土道教所冲击。加上传承自起码秦末的中国门阀家族在南北朝和隋唐到五代解体。所以唐宋政治改革同时也伴随着思想改革。

在这个改革过程中,起到主导地位的还是儒家士大夫。程朱理学从道家借来世界的本体论“气”,从佛教借来轮回和因果等理念构建格物思辨(过度简化地说),但是其根本道理仍然是为了维护“天道有常,不为尧存,不为桀亡”的儒家道德秩序。所以南宋亡至有明一代,士绅作为实质的乡村大家长,权力不断扩大。可以吃绝户、助诉讼,控制族产、组建乡约共同体,战时召集团练。

而无论什么时候,乡间社日主祭绝对是国家士大夫。要么是乡村儒家士绅。而只有公开的佛教、道教仪式,或者死者出殡,会按照佛道等宗教来。这就是儒家给其他宗教施舍的“敬鬼神而远之”的自留地。

相对于只在神学仪式上制造影响的佛道信仰。中国社会的父子兄弟的家庭孝悌观,师生的恩义观,君臣的效忠观,再到春秋决狱、亲亲相隐、忠孝节义,从乡村到朝廷,无不是儒家所规定。甚至什么是“淫祠“什么是“正教“,也要看这个寺庙在当地能不能起到帮助儒家士绅统治的作用。这不是信仰,那所谓的信仰在中国就根本没有影响力。

另,我提民间信仰,就是相对于儒家士大夫存在的会道门。这就是另一个体系了。自宋代以来,因为旧中国大门阀士族退出历史舞台,宋明官僚士大夫和地方士绅只剩下科举这一制度化晋升体系。因此,官吏殊途,官民对立逐渐加重。民间自治团体开始泛滥。儒家士绅自范仲淹开始倡导乡约。而小农、佃户则追随乡村会道门。

会道门的特色就是经书乱写,但是组织严密。仍突出的是中国文明自周制礼乐到儒家兴起而来的,“实用理性“和“人化“的信仰。宋元的明教、白莲教,明代白莲教、闻香教、罗祖教,清代白莲教、天理教、收元教,乃至最后的太平天国的拜上帝教。都是组织严密,经书却乱写的会道门。

也正因如此,我建议信仰分为“官方信仰”和“民间信仰”。两个种类。民间信仰你可以填“融合信仰”,也可以根据实际的会道门、教派历史,填写佛道景明等宗教。

现代国学对儒家“无害化处理”,把四书五经变成“国学”淡化其儒家经书属性。是现代的文化研究,谈到古代社会的模拟。儒家及其支流无疑在上层占据主导地位。
My point is that, at any scale, describing East Asia, or China's "faith" as "the confluence of three religions" is a kind of lazy politics.

Why?

First of all, we should all agree. As long as we systematically study Chinese history, we will know that whether in the study of village covenants, folk sacrifices, rural customs or the ideology of scholars and officials, Confucian classics, the Four Books and the Five Classics, are in an absolute leading position.

Secondly, as for rural gods. The hybridization of local gods is indeed the norm of faith. There are countless common gods in Buddhism and Hinduism. The ritual holy places of the three Abrahamic religions also intersect with each other. In Christian countries, the Germanic polytheistic spring goddess celebration is also held in April every year, called "Easter". The folk worship of the Thousand-Handed Jesus Daozun cannot be regarded as a proof of unclear faith.

Academically speaking. At least I have never seen the saying that the "three religions" of "the confluence of three religions" are used as the name of a belief. You have written "three religions" in name, it is impossible to be one religion. Furthermore, since Dong Zhongshu's "rejecting all schools of thought and respecting Confucianism alone", it has been the norm for Confucian scholars to publicly offer sacrifices to various gods, which is also the means for Confucian scholars to maintain their political power and knowledge monopoly. This state has almost run through Chinese history.

From Yang Kuan's "History of the Western Zhou Dynasty" and Li Zehou's "A Modern Reading of the Analects" to new research in recent years, domestic historians will also tell you that one of the core arguments of Chinese Confucianism is to "humanize" faith. "Huangdi's three hundred years" became Huangdi's governance for a hundred years, the system continued for a hundred years, and the people missed him for a hundred years. Such a humanized explanation. This humanization and the attitude of "respecting ghosts and gods but keeping them at a distance" is the Confucian "ontology" that inherits the spirit of Zhou Li - that is, discussing ontology is meaningless, and heaven and hell are just vassals of "human relations".

The Zhou people "matched virtue with heaven". Confucianism is the same.

At the same time, starting from the beginning of the Western Zhou Dynasty, the worship of ghosts and gods dominated by the sacrificial groups of the old Shang Dynasty was gradually transferred to the worship of destiny and ancestors dominated by nobles and retainers. In the late Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period, the society transitioned from the production relations of the state and wild clans to the society of small peasant family farming, which pushed this movement to a climax. Confucianism itself was born from the separation of sacrifice and practical officials. In the Han Dynasty, Confucianism, which focused on secular moral norms and the family social order of monarchs, ministers, fathers and sons, borrowed the theory of heaven and man and the theory of the beginning and end of the five elements from Yin-Yang School and Taoism. A complete and self-consistent theoretical system of the unity of politics and religion, including spiritual and secular, was established.

In this system, priests and the gods they observed and relied on have been removed from daily affairs. The only thing that has the power to dominate people is the "human relations" moral order from the self-cultivating peasant rural society. The moral concepts brought by other religions must also be subject to the human relations order. So when the Catholic Pope refused Chinese believers to worship their ancestors, this religion was banned.

This system was impacted by Western Buddhism and local Taoism during the Southern and Northern Dynasties. In addition, the Chinese aristocratic families inherited from at least the end of the Qin Dynasty disintegrated during the Southern and Northern Dynasties and the Sui, Tang and Five Dynasties. Therefore, the political reforms of the Tang and Song Dynasties were also accompanied by ideological reforms.

In this reform process, the Confucian scholars played a leading role. Cheng-Zhu Neo-Confucianism borrowed the ontological "qi" of the world from Taoism, and borrowed the concepts of reincarnation and cause and effect from Buddhism to construct the study of things (to oversimplify), but its fundamental principle is still to maintain the Confucian moral order of "the way of heaven is constant, it does not exist for Yao, and it does not die for Jie". Therefore, from the end of the Southern Song Dynasty to the Ming Dynasty, the power of the gentry as the actual head of the village continued to expand. They could eat up the extinct households, assist in litigation, control clan property, form a village community, and call for group training in wartime.

No matter when, the main sacrifice on the rural community day is definitely a national scholar-official. Or a rural Confucian gentry. Only public Buddhist and Taoist ceremonies, or funerals of the deceased, will be carried out according to Buddhism and Taoism. This is the "respect ghosts and gods but keep them at a distance" reserve that Confucianism has given to other religions.

Compared with the Buddhist and Taoist beliefs that only have an impact on theological rituals. The family filial piety of fathers and sons and brothers, the gratitude of teachers and students, the loyalty of monarchs and ministers in Chinese society, and the judgment of cases in the Spring and Autumn Period, the protection of relatives, loyalty, filial piety, chastity and righteousness, from the countryside to the court, are all stipulated by Confucianism. Even what is a "lewd temple" and what is a "orthodox religion" depends on whether the temple can help the Confucian gentry rule in the local area. This is not a belief, and the so-called belief has no influence in China at all.

In addition, I mentioned folk beliefs, which are the secret societies that exist in contrast to Confucian scholars. This is another system. Since the Song Dynasty, because the old Chinese aristocratic families withdrew from the historical stage, the bureaucrats and local gentry of the Song and Ming dynasties only had the institutionalized promotion system of the imperial examination. Therefore, officials took different paths, and the opposition between officials and the people gradually intensified. Civilian autonomous groups began to proliferate. Confucian gentry began to advocate village agreements since Fan Zhongyan. Small farmers and tenants followed the village secret societies.

The characteristic of secret societies is that the scriptures are written randomly, but they are well organized. What is still prominent is the belief of "practical rationality" and "humanization" that has emerged in Chinese civilization from the Zhou Dynasty's rituals and music to the rise of Confucianism. The Mingjiao and White Lotus Sect in the Song and Yuan Dynasties, the White Lotus Sect, Wenxiang Sect, Luozu Sect in the Ming Dynasty, the White Lotus Sect, Tianli Sect, Shouyuan Sect in the Qing Dynasty, and even the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom's God Worshipping Sect. They are all well-organized secret societies with messy scriptures.

For this reason, I suggest that beliefs be divided into "official beliefs" and "folk beliefs". Two categories. For folk beliefs, you can fill in "integrated beliefs", or you can fill in Buddhism, Taoism, Jingming and other religions according to the actual history of secret societies and sects.

Modern national studies "harmlessly treat" Confucianism, turning the Four Books and Five Classics into "national studies" to dilute its Confucian scripture attributes. It is a modern cultural study that talks about the simulation of ancient society. Confucianism and its tributaries undoubtedly dominate the upper class.

google translate seems to have worked.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Support the first plan, so that it can not only be less pan-China, but also reflect the complex and rich religious composition of East Asia. Confucianism can be turned into a mechanism rather than a religion, and Taoism, Buddhism and other religions should be refined. Compared with the influence of Chinese religions on East Asian countries, Confucianism is the main reason why China affects its surrounding areas.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I don't think a great solution is as simple as either splitting off all the different religions from "Eastern Buddhism" OR changing the name to the Three Teachings. I think it's a little of both, depending on the region. For example Buddhism should exist largely separately from Confucianism in Tibet, Mongolia, and Nepal and should be be split off as separate to the Three Teachings. Some minority pops might follow the three teachings, but overall Confucianism should have less of a place there than in China, Korea or Vietnam.

I also think it would be a mistake to entirely fold the folk beliefs of these latter three areas under Three Teachings. Of course they'd influence the local version of Three Teachings in some cases (Perhaps through a culture-locked mechanic similar to an aspect of faith?) but they often existed in parallel, seemingly as a distinct form of faith.

In short, my answer would be:
  • Rename Eastern Buddhism to The Three Teachings
  • Split off those who primarily follow Vietnamese, Chinese or Korean folk religion.
  • Split off primarily Mahāyāna Buddhist pops as being just Mahāyāna Buddhist. This would mostly be Tibetan, Nepalese, Mongolian and Indian pops, though some minority groups would probably exist throughout East Asia.
It's not perfect, but in my mind the only perfect system would require a rework of the pop system to allow pops to syncretically subscribe to multiple beliefs, such as being simultaneously Confucian, Buddhist, Daoist, etc. That's clearly not even nearly realistic at this point in development, though, so something similar to the above would be as close as I'd imagine with relatively little work.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions: