• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I'm more for "Three Teachings" over separating the various East Asian faiths because, if we were to separate Confucianism, Chinese Folk Religion, Daoism, Buddhism, Korean Shamanism and so on, we'd have the issue of having to start splitting the local pops into separate religious communities, which if not impossible should be basically something entirely arbitrary. If in a province there were 10000 people, it wasn't as simple as to say that 5000 were Confucians, 3000 were Buddhist, 1500 Daoist and 500 animists, because that's not how it really worked. The reality on the ground was that most people followed a blend of each of those moral/religious systems, and as the game expects each pop to have exactly one religion it can only ever lead to a fundamentally incorrect depiction of religious demographics in East Asia.

Three Teachings and the other options have their own issues, but at least they manage to establish the idea that there's a general shared belief system made up of multiple philosophies and religions, and that at the pop level many people actively follow several of them at once.

Shinto in Japan being a separate thing can work out because in a sense religion in Japan was already a little different from mainland Asia. Buddhism and folk religion were a lot more dominant in Japan compared to the role that Confucianism and Daoism played in the mainland, and this led Japan to become a country mostly dominated by Buddhism alone with Shinto elements compared to mainland Asia where stronger opposition to Buddhism existed.

The biggest problem with the Three Teachings (San jiao) is the name itself

1. For example, if China is Orthodox, Korea is Catholic, and Japan is Protestant, Vietnam is Copt, then the "general" religious name in East Asia should be Christianity or something new if there is no suitable word like "Christianity". If someone says that since Orthodox is a fact in China, the "general" religious name in East Asia should be Orthodox, then other people cannot agree and accept it.

2. The name of the three teachings ignores sects and folk religions. Which Confucian sect will represent Confucianism? This problem will be the same in Buddhism and Taoism. even if we integrate the sects, where are the local folk religions? If we agree to ignore the local folk religions, the three teachings are right. but at Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, we already agreed to ignore the local folk religions such as Musok and Shinto, so it will be two or one teaching.

So I think we have three options. 1. Try harder to find general names that aren't the worst 2. Choose one religion like other continents. 3. Just divide.
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I think most of the people in this thread are guilty of some eurocentrism or christiancentrism.

A) Using the name "three teachings" just shifts the problem, but it's still imposing the confessional model of Abrahamic religion on regions where "confession of faith" is a bizarre foreign concept.

B) it assumes "confessions of faith" is the human default. This isn't true. The "messy Chinese syncretism" is much closer to the human default. Most of the world was syncretic the way China was, not confessional the way France was. Certainly the Roman Empire would have been more like China then like France.

C) it ignores the existence of dozens of different sects and schools of thought, many of which only operated regionally, many of which were forbidden or cult like or millenarian. These should all be represented as international organisations with their own buildings and preferences.

D) it ignores that the state had different preferences regarding the influence of different religious communities. EG, China and Korea are undoubtedly in the same religious "milieu", both heavily confucian, but Korea for a long period persecuted Buddhists, while China was generally laissez faire. Or in Japan, mainstream Nichiren Buddhism was accepted, but Jodo Shinshu rather less so.

I don't think it's necessary to depict most pops in non-abrahamic regions as being confessional. They can be left "undefined", instead it's only necessary to depict the influence of the religious organisations themselves, and how they relate to the state, which itself should also have a "state religion", which for most of the game should be confucianism. But also, it should also be possible for single faith "confessionism" to occur, as there were radical confucian and Buddhist sects which wanted to wipe out the other religions.
 
Last edited:
  • 7
Reactions:
I feel pitiful that Yao is not represented as Daoism and Daoism is not represented right now.

I have to say there have been many more discussions since EU4, and some of them are worth consideration. Thus, I quote a few in the following.

maybe Confucianism sould have insanely high tolerance of "heretics"(the other Eastern faiths) and maybe even heathens too, or something like the Muslim Piety or Buddhist Karma meters that can raise or lower tolerance through events where the court reviews religious practices in your nation, and possibly risk adding unrest to provinces of the 'wrong' faith.

something like this:
"The Confucian court has decided to review the merits of [religion name], and after many hours of debate have come to the conclusion that..."

1) "[religion name] is an affront to our ideals! It must be purged from our nation!" (all provences with [religion name] get +6 unrest and +10% missionary strength modifier until [date])

2) "[religion name] conforms to the teachings of Confucius, leave its followers be" (all provinces with [religion name] get -2 unrest and -100% missionary strength until [date])

and maybe have Celestial Empire factions influence be shifted by these events, or have these events be more or less frequent/useful/powerful/safe/dangerous/etc. when some factions are in power or not.
Ah yes, paradox idea of chinese religion. Daoists persecuting Buddhists in a state that's supposedly Confucian.
You could at least change the factions name to reflect the actual factions of the Ming court, and remove these frankly offensive descriptions.

dtzJ07.jpg
If Confucianism was regarded as the official religion of the Qing Dynasty at that time, Confucianism was a religious interest group who presided over private schools that taught Confucianism as a kind of religious school. Although such a setting still seems like a joke, it is relatively closer to reality than Mahayana Buddhism as the state religion of the Qing Dynasty.
Yes, Confucianism was never a religion, just as Aristotle's metaphysics was never a religion. The problem with the game system is that it assumes that in the world from 1836 to 1936, any country must have one and only one state religion, and that this country also has and only one state religion believers form religious interest groups. If the state religion can be set to be empty, or multiple religions can be set, I think it will be more able to restore the complex and diverse social reality.
Additionally, the White Lotus Revolt, which takes place shortly before the game's start year, is related to a belief that may be an offshoot of Buddhism. The Taiping Rebellion that followed was a very strange branch of Christianity. However, studying its essence, the outer shell of religion is just another variant of folk superstition. The peasants did not revolt because their beliefs were different from the state religion, and the Qing Dynasty did not treat infidels specially when suppressing the rebellion.
Mahayana Buddhism has a famous religious taboo, that they can't eat meat or drink alcohol, they only eat vegetarian food. If we bind this taboo with Chinese culture, we will get a very funny result. In fact, only the most devout Buddhists refuse to eat meat and drink alcohol. However, a Han Chinese who never avoids meat and fish will usually walk in and pay homage when passing by a Buddhist temple. Does that mean he is a Buddhist? The granularity of the game system is seriously underrepresented in places like this.
Confucianism must be in the game and be the state religion of Qing and Joseon Dynasty (and Vietnam?).

Although it's not about China, I should talk of Korea. It's ridiculous that the state religion of Joseon(Korea) is Mahayana Buddhism.

Neo-Confucianism was the ruling ideology of Korea at that time. A lot of people from various classes believed in Buddhism(even some kings did), but Buddhism itself had been suppressed in many ways. The bureaucrats and intellectuals made an effort to exclude Buddhism from politics. Special corvee was imposed on monks, and temples in towns were seized or destroyed.

Such policies succeeded in weakening the Buddhist orders. Many monasteries couldn't ordain a new monk because they didn't have just ten monks. (Korean Buddhists need ten existing monks to appoint a new monk.)

Also, Joseon Dynasty had persecuted Catholics several times. There were various reasons for those persecutions, but the major reason was because Catholics opposed to the ancestral veneration which the Church perceived to be a sort of idolatry. For Confucianists, veneration to parents and ancestors are the basis of morality and loyalty to the king. So those who refused bowing to their ancestors were considered those who had neither morality nor loyalty.


That sounds... like a religion, doesn't it?
We have seen the Tinto Talk about religion that China, and most of East Asia, is currently covered in a Mahayana Buddhist religion. The devs confirmed in the thread itself this is indeed their design decision and is not a placeholder. I hope to illustrate why this “Mahayana” label, regardless of how religion will work and how Mahayana Buddhism will function in-game, is a mistake and is inaccurate.

To avoid making a long and unnecessary text, I have tried to be somewhat to the point, but the downside of this is losing some nuance. I would urge people and the devs to look into the sources I have provided regarding Chinese religion rather than just reading my text.

Firstly, for clarity. Understanding “religion” in imperial China is always an issue because it is a category moulded in an Abrahamic perspective on orthodoxy, doctrine and exclusivity which was not that relevant in the region at this time. Three belief systems were often talked about by the Chinese- Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism (the Three Teachings 三教), but religion must not only be thought in terms of them or something different- both Confucianism and Daoism were born from a Chinese spirituality that was inseparable from them, and the folk religion intertwined all three to an extent it cannot either be called Buddhist, Daoist or Confucian but also is all the three at the same time. Similarly, the institutional religion of China did not truly exist separately from either of these religions but calling the imperial dynasty as adhering to one or the other religion alone is incorrect as well. At most, we can say that neo-Confucianism was a dominant belief system in the Ming dynasty, but even then that may not be entirely accurate.

The average individual, or even the average emperor, usually cannot be called a “Confucian” or a “Buddhist” or a “Daoist” exclusively.
For example, Emperor Taizu of Ming had the origins of his rise in association with Buddhists, but he was seen as a “Confucian revivalist” and yet he was more sympathetic and aligned with Daoism. He had strong Daoist convictions and had a special interest in reaffirming correct Chinese indigenous religious practices.

Anyway, I have made some points regarding why Mahayana is a bad label.

  • Confucianism is not just a state ideology
There is a lot of opposition to labelling Confucianism as a religion. I will not argue here that Confucianism should be a religion (though ultimately whether it is religious or not will depend upon one’s definition of religion itself but I digress). However, disregarding Confucianism as only a state ideology is a crude and incorrect way of viewing it. Its relevance is not only governmental but societal and individual. It has a clear view of individual and societal transformation, an inherent cosmology and a teleological goal. It is not necessarily compatible with any other Chinese ‘religions’ but also not necessarily incompatible, with different philosophers and individuals having different views on this. Neo-Confucianism was also the dominant attitude among the Ming elite, and among the Qing elite. Neo-Confucianism’s formulation during the Tang dynasty, drove large numbers of the governing elite away from Buddhism and Daoism. Any depiction of religion in China that relegates Buddhism into a role present only in the state is a bad move for a historical simulation.
  • Daoism is not a minor clerical movement or a philosophy
Daoism is at heart a fully-fledged religious framework. Though still varied and having undergone a period of decline during the Yuan dynasty, it is an extremely important worldview in both Chinese politics and society. Daoism actually had revolutionary origins as a faith of the lower strata, and its practice outside of liturgy and the clergy is not given the credit it should. It was Daoist-Buddhist-Manichaen syncretism that informed the millenarian beliefs of many Buddhist societies during the Yuan dynasty. Daoism also deeply influenced and transformed Buddhism itself. Moreover, during the Ming dynasty, Daoism retained a rather central position and was very influential in governance and prevalent in politics, especially in the early Ming dynasty. Arguably it is certain Daoist terms and conceptions that underlie ‘Chinese spirituality’ - When it arrived in China, Buddhism was originally translated and interpreted with Daoist terms, and Daoism informed some aspects of neo-Confucianism. Any depiction of religion in China that reduces the role and importance of Daoism, is going to be a flawed and bad depiction of religion.
  • Confucianism and Daoism are born out of a Chinese spirituality, a pre-existing ‘Chinese religious framework’
Both Confucianism and Daoism did not arise out of thin air, and that is very evident when looking at the huge breadth of ideas, concepts and views they share. They were born out of an existing Chinese spirituality with certain ideas and worldviews- a spirituality that existed both as a folk religion but also as a series of institutional and elite practices and beliefs. They influenced, and were influenced by this religion, and in a way are inseparable from it. When talking about Chinese folk religion, ultimately we also discuss in a way Daoism and Confucianism. Important to note- Confucianism, Chinese spirituality and Daoism all were influenced by Buddhism but existed prior to it and in some ways independently of it. As such, religion in China at no point was born or related exclusively to Buddhism.
  • China never became “Buddhist-ified”. Buddhism was Sinicised.
In looking at Buddhism and its history in China, we see that though extremely important and influential, Buddhism did not displace existing religious practices, worldviews and beliefs like it may have done in other parts of the world. It influenced them, and added to Chinese spirituality but did not create a break from it. Instead, Buddhism was Sinicised, and the schools of Buddhism that became influential and dominant in China were made incredibly “Chinese” in their practice and beliefs. Chan Buddhism, at times the dominant Buddhist tradition in China, borrowed extensively from Daoism- developing a Daoist distrust of scriptures and ideas of the Daoist ‘moment’, and Pure Land Buddhism, usually the second most dominant tradition, also had a strong Sinic perspective to it. China transformed Buddhism into schools that were ingrained into their worldview and perspective, they did not have their worldview transformed or destroyed by a foreign religion. And even then both Chan and Pure Land Buddhism, and other trends of Buddhism in China were not absolutely dominant and did not necessarily inform the religious practices of every Chinese individual- peasant or intellectual or emperor.
  • Chinese Buddhism was at this point different from the ‘esoteric’ Mahayana branches in India and Tibet
One of the things as well that I take particular issue with is that China currently shares a ‘Mahayana’ Buddhism with Tibet and India. Taking aside my issues with making China Buddhist to start with, in no way is that an accurate assessment of Chinese Buddhism. Chinese Buddhism, whose dominant trends were Chan and Pure Land Buddhism, had grown completely different from what was practised in Tibet and India, and this is apparent in the contrast of the two in China. There was a constant dispute for patronage and support from the government between Tibetan and Chinese Buddhism, and there was both adoption of one over the other and hostility. Tibetan Buddhism was sponsored by the Yuan and the Qing dynasties, and it had moments of popularity among some members of the Chinese urban populace, as opposed to local Chinese Buddhism, with Tibetan style marriages being something of a trendy thing to do, but not a dominant practice. However, in other instances, Tibetan Buddhism was seen as foreign and barbaric. Yuan’s prioritisation of Tibetan Buddhism over local Chan Buddhism was a forceful measure at times. Buddhism had been Sinicised in China, it was not a foreign religion like Tibetan Buddhism, whose lamas were brought over from Tibet.
  • Folk religion was not Buddhist
I’ve mentioned that folk religion was in many ways inseparable from the two traditions of Confucianism and Daoism. From the Song dynasty onwards, we see Buddhism added to the mix and strongly informing folk religious practices and attitudes. However, at no point did this folk religion become primarily and exclusively ‘Mahayana’. The Buddhist afterlife was given particular relevance and became the predominant view of the afterlife but there was still a local Sinic belief system, a Confucian worldview, especially in terms of rites done towards ancestors (who were worshipped/venerated in the same way that gods were), and gods, ghosts and immortals were all presented in a Daoist celestial hierarchy. This folk religion was a culmination of ‘Chinese religion’, that was interwoven into the dominant belief systems but not orthodoxical. In many ways, the Chinese imperial religion was an extension of this folk religion.
  • Conclusion: China should not be labeled as Buddhist
I’ve tried here to make a couple of points as to why naming everything “Mahayana” is, as such, incredibly inaccurate. It incorrectly labels Chinese religion, incorrectly labels Chinese imperial dynasties, incorrectly labels Chinese popular religion and also links Chinese religious practices and Chinese Buddhism with the Mahayana Buddhism that still exists in India, despite the vast differences. It completely ignores the importance of Daoism, and likely relegates Confucianism incorrectly to simply a state ideology. It also disregards the nature of Chinese spirituality and Chinese religion. It is ahistorical. I also don’t know how religions will work in PC or Buddhism, but I believe properly representing Chinese religion would be much more interesting as well from a gameplay perspective.

SUGGESTION:
My suggestion for how to portray it in the game is to actually portray it how it was reflected in broad society at the time- there was little way and form of actually distinguishing between who was Daoist, Confucian and Chinese Buddhist among the masses as the popular religion intermixed these too heavily to properly create denominations that can be assigned. The people were not truly Buddhist or Confucian or Daoist but at the same time were all three at once. The institutional imperial religion provided patronage to all forms of Sinic belief systems, and all of this is ultimately part of a “Chinese spirituality”.

Rather than separate, instead, Chinese Buddhism, Daoism and Confucianism are all currents and views inside a singular “East Asian / Sinic” religion. As such, a single “East Asian” religion should cover most of China save for the areas that are Manichaen or that had a strong presence of non-Chinese Buddhism like Tibet and the Mongols. The Mahayana Buddhism of India should be a completely different religion as well. Please change China and East Asia to having an “East Asia / Sinic” religion.

I believe this suggestion is also relevant in Vietnam and Korea, where (unlike is stereotypically assumed) Buddhism was not a universal religion embraced by all but had a complex relationship with society, especially the elites and the government under the Joseon and Nguyen dynasty. Neo-Confucians in those countries may seek to curtail the power of the clergy or the Buddhist trends in this “East Asian religion”.

The question of what to name this “East Asian” religion then arises. I have listed here some possible names for this “East Asian” religion but am open to suggestions. There is no perfect choice, but it is preferable to having everything be ahistorically Mahayana:
  • “San jiao” (‘Three Teachings’) 三教 is a term historically used earlier than the Ming dynasty to refer to Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism and their harmonious coexistence and role in forming Chinese spirituality. The disadvantage of this term is that it mostly focuses on the three as organised religion, excluding their syncretism and popular religion from the mix, but it could work.
  • “Taoic” or “Taoism” is often used as a term for Chinese religious trends and popular religion by some historians like John Keay who I have provided as a source. When used in this way, the term does not refer to organised liturgical Taoism with its basis on Lao Zi but rather reinterpets the term as roughly meaning the practices and beliefs within a Chinese religious framework that has certain concepts and ideas (e.g. like the Dao). The issue with this term is its confusion with the organised clerical liturgical Taoism that most people identify with the name, and it also indirectly omits non-Chan Buddhism so I am not too keen on it now.
  • “Shendao” 神道 is a term historically used to talk about native Chinese religion during the Han dynasty and that was also used by Ming emperor Taizu to refer to Chinese religious traditions. Shendao was borrowed by the Japanese to provide the name “Shinto” for their own religion.
  • “Sinic”, “Sinic Polytheism”, “Chinese Polytheism”, “East Asian Spirituality”, “Chinese Spirituality”, “Chinese Cosmology” are all straightforward but awkward terms to use.
  • The Chinese word zōngjiào 宗教 (‘religion’) or zhōnghuájiào 中華教 (‘Chinese religion’) are both possibilities.
  • “Chinese Universism” is a term used by Jan Jakob Maria de Groot to refer to the Chinese metaphysical worldview that underlies everything mentioned here.
  • Open to further suggestions on names.
So to recapitulate my suggestion:
  • China should be dominated by an “East Asian” religion that encompasses Confucianism, Daoism, Chinese Buddhism, Chinese popular religion and the imperial institutional religion.
  • Tibetan Buddhism and Indian Mahayanas should be separate from Chinese religion, and the Chinese dynasty’s stance on Tibetan Buddhism will vary depending on dynasty and laws/policies. Tibetan Buddhism might also probably need to be separated from Indian Mahayana Buddhism. Both of them had Vajrayana practices but I believe diverged on practice and various points, but I do not know enough about the topic to comment further.

Sources, which I recommend reading:

Maybe the most important book here
. Excellent insight into Chinese religion, provides very good arguments for Chinese religion being always interpreted as a single unit like I did here rather than separate things: https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Religion-Contextual-Xinzhong-Yao/dp/1847064760

Good for Chinese religious history. Provides a history of the Chinese religion: https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Chinese Religions - Overview.htm

Ming politics with Daoists: https://academic.oup.com/book/1664

Talks about Emperor Taizu and his relationship to Daoism https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1177_2016_num_25_1_1472

General history of China: https://books.google.com.br/books/about/China.html?id=RONg45TJsqQC&redir_esc=y

Talks about the Joseon Dynasty and its complex relationship with Buddhism: https://accesson.kr/rks/assets/pdf/7717/journal-14-1-35.pdf

Interesting article, arguing why Confucianism is a religion. A bit unrelated to the point I’m raising: https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Confucianism_as_Religious_Tradition.pdf

https://cup.columbia.edu/book/tibetan-buddhists-in-the-making-of-modern-china/9780231134460 A book showing the relationship of Tibetan Buddhism and the Chinese, largely cementing the claims I've made that Tibetan Buddhism and Chinese Buddhism are very different (the influence of Tibetan Buddhism post-Yuan was very small)
I recommend you read the sources I have provided and please re-read what I've said as you've made points which I made myself. Also if you could provide extra sources, I also like to read new things about China.

The argument here isn't one about syncretism. It also isn't about Buddhism, Daoism or Confucianism being syncretised. It is that the Chinese religion, on the level of the popular practice and belief has these currents being practically inseparable from each other. I argue that rather than draw arbitrary and incorrect lines trying to label people between religions, what should be simulated is the Sinic general worldview. In the same liking that in other areas of the world (e.g. pre-Christian Rome), we talk about Greco-Roman religion rather than specifically try to group every individual into a mystery cult or a Neoplatonic school. China is not necessarily unique in the sense of its religion, and I've not argued it is unique.

You are mentioning examples that either are slightly incorrect or don't really have much to do with my point, including talking about the patronage of Tibetan Buddhists, which I myself raised and have labelled as a religion that really was not part of the Sinic worldview but was a foreign import, much in the same manner that the Yuan dynasty also instituted a caste administration that favoured originally foreign Mongols consistently.

The Qin dynasty fell around 200 BC. It doesn't really reflect at all the nature or state of religion in China during the timespan of the game, given Chinese beliefs, like any other religion, evolve through time. Better examples of the point that you are trying to raise are Buddhism being repressed during Emperor Wuzong's rule in the 800s and the latest series of acts where Kubilai Khan ordered that the Daoist canon be burned and Daoist priests returned to lay life or converted to Buddhism. Neither of these cases, or the Joseon dynasty's supposed attempts at repressing Buddhism (which I've also provided a source for) are really pertinent here. These are primarily attacks and suppressions of an organised clergy and a current of thought that are trying to destroy it and weaken it. They are not institutionalised campaigns like the Inquisition trying to ensure that a population follows the correct orthodox religion, because that wouldn't make sense in the region. Ultimately, all these religions fall within a greater Sinic worldview which shapes a shared worldview for most of the population. It is impossible and artificial to claim that most people in China were either Buddhists or Daoists or Confucians or none of those- and this is true even in members of some of the most organised lay secret societies.

Your idea to represent Confucianism and Daoism with Pops is ultimately inaccurate and just leads to arbitrary lines being drawn everywhere. The elite and the population cannot be reliably labelled and distinguished in religion because it did not truly reflect how most individuals perceived their beliefs at the time.

As I've mentioned in my post, the Yuan dynasty provided patronage for Tibetan lamas but they were not alone in doing so. The late Ming and the Qing dynasty also provided patronage to Tibetan lamas. However, the Yuan were unique in the extent to which they imposed Tibetan Buddhism, as I've mentioned, and there was a lot of tension between Tibetan Buddhism and Chinese Buddhism, because Tibetan Buddhism is a foreign religion that was not part of the Sinic religion- and this was one of the main points in my argument about how Tibetan Buddhism and Chinese Buddhism should not be the same religion. Rather, that it is more reflective to have Chinese Buddhism as part of a greater Chinese religion that contrasts with Tibetan Buddhism.

You talk about the Qing dynasty excluding all other religions and endorsing only Confucianism, however, that is just not properly reflective of the reality at the time. Yes, there was a rationalistic neo-Confucian tendency in governance and among the intelligentsia, but that wasn't the whole picture. Many Qing Emperors were privately Buddhists and even took part in Manchu shamanism, while the supposedly "neo-Confucian" intelligentsia while preaching ideas of neo-Confucianism, many were still themselves tied to other religions. By the seventeenth century, the scholar-official class as a whole remained involved in a variety of private religious practices beyond their official ritual responsibilities. These included not only the study of Daoism and Buddhism but the use of spirit-writing séances and prayers to Wenchang, the god of scholars and literature, for help in passing examinations. This even led to the formation of 'Confucian' cults that would be very unfamiliar to past Confucian predecessors. Daoism stopped receiving court support but still kept around the populace, even in parts of the upper strata. Ultimately, in terms of the state's relationship with actual popular religion, there was limited change. In terms of Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism, the Chinese dynasties only ever acted against the clergy and organised societies, weakening them or strengthening them as they wished- because there was no real way of targetting general people as they all shared a highly variable similar Chinese worldview that gave birth to and intermixed these trends- even among the elite.

Indeed, the Chinese state should have the ability to repress and suppress different religions. It also should be able either to suppress or promote or patronise different clergy within the Chinese religion, and to change their relationship to clergy. However, there was never any attempt by any dynasty (with the exception of the much later Heavenly Kingdom in the 19th century, which constitutes a religious innovation in China) to get rid of the base popular Chinese religion or to erase Chinese Buddhism, Daoism and Confucianism from the region. Getting an example from outside of China, even campaigns as extreme as those in Joseon Dynasty against Buddhism helped in crushing monasteries and monastic tradition but did not actually attempt to kick out Buddhism from society, with even Joseon emperors being privately Buddhists themselves.

There is no way to split up Confucianism, Daoism and Chinese Buddhism through Pops. Any attempt is going to be artificial, inaccurate and ahistorical- not because of a lack of sources but because this divide did not exist. There were different clergy and different currents of thought that we may call religions, as well as different government policies against clergy and organised societies, but ultimately in practice, the greater part of the Chinese populace was committed to a very variable, highly diverging religion. The popular religion and the ways individuals practiced religion was not just the syncretic combination of different religions but a religion which shaped Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism, gave them their concepts and views and in turn was shaped by them- an inseparable relation.

My basic points of view on the Chinese religion:
  1. Confucianism is not a religion but an ideology
    • China never had an "official" state religion and was somehow secular or even "atheist".
    • China did have a clergy class, but just scholar-officials representing different religions
    • The key is not to identify what is what, but how to manage religions
  2. Separation of religions is possible
    • Three basic types: Mahayana, Daoism, and the Chinese type of Animism - Chinese Folk Religion
    • Additional types: Wuism, Muism, Nuoism, Luoism, Manichaeism, Nestorianism, White Lotus, or even religious Confucianism
    • The Three Teachings are acceptable. You should choose the teachings properly. For example, you could select White Lotus or Muism instead of Buddhism or Daoism.
    • Harmonization and factions were plausible in EU4, given the previous feedback. We should allow more interaction and interplay between different religions in terms of conversion, harmonization, and balancing. The current gameplay just applies one-button conversion of state religion, but it does not make sense for any larger countries.
Gennerally I think China did not have any organized religious group like a variety of churches and schools in Christianity and Islamic world. The religion is basically kept out of politics as the political leadership were trained with teaching from Confucius: "Working to give the people justice and paying respect to the spirits, but keeping away from them, you can call wisdom." (子曰:务民之义,敬鬼神而远之,可谓知矣。The Analects of Confucius 6:22, Translated by A. Charles Muller)Based on this rule, Confucian governments are supposed to be indifferent to all religions and should not have penalty from herseys or heretics.

I don't believe we should any big tent religion in East Asia or any other places. What I believe in the myth of Chinese religion is that the great majority of population are not religious at all, or to be specific, they have no preference for any religion they know about. Historical data are available for the population who went pravrajana (became a Buddist monk) or became a Taoist from a 2002 paper.

YearDynastyBuddist PriestsTaoist PriestsPriest TotalBuddist shareTaoist shareEst. Pop.Ratio1Smooth Est.Ratio2
736​
Tang
127864​
1764​
129628​
0.986​
0.014​
90000000​
694.2944426​
75594545.45​
583.1652533​
1019​
Song
245770​
17170​
262948​
0.935​
0.065​
60950000​
231.7948796​
70412000​
267.7791807​
1021​
Song
458854​
20337​
479085​
0.958​
0.042​
60950000​
127.221683​
71408000​
149.0507947​
1034​
Song
434262​
20126​
454388​
0.956​
0.044​
60950000​
134.1364649​
77882000​
171.3997729​
1042​
Song
396525​
20182​
416707​
0.952​
0.048​
60950000​
146.2658415​
81866000​
196.4593827​
1068​
Song
254798​
19384​
274182​
0.93​
0.07​
110750000​
403.9287772​
94814000​
345.8067999​
1077​
Song
232564​
19221​
251785​
0.924​
0.076​
110750000​
439.8594039​
99296000​
394.368211​
1157​
Song
200000​
10000​
210000​
0.952​
0.048​
140000000​
666.6666667​
127422500​
606.7738095​
1291​
Yuan
213148​
236831
0.9
75306000​
317.9735761​
76044573.77​
321.0921449​
1372​
Ming
57200​
63556
0.9
81000000​
1274.466612​
92679500​
1458.233684​
1486​
Ming
500000​
555556
0.9
110000000​
197.9998416​
105940000​
190.6918474​
1667​
Qing
118907​
21286​
140193​
0.848​
0.152​
140000000​
998.6233264​
124057400​
884.9043818​

I used the population of the closest year in the wikipedia article, Population History of China, in the first pop. est. and use the smooth linear data based on the same datasource to have the Smooth Est. column. I assumed that 1:9 between Taoist and Buddist priests. The ratio1 and ratio2 represents different population estimates against priest numbers. In the most cases, the ratio is higher than 200:1, while a few cases show that, the ratio in Europe was much higher than that in China: in French Revolution, the ratio for the Catholic Church is 200:1; In Medival England, the ratio was estimated 25:1 - 63:1.

The ratio shows either possibly high volume of unregistered priests in government numbers or less religious population compared to that in Europe. Both represents the weak link between politics and religion in China: the government has little control of religion or the religion is weak in existence and also political influence among the population. Priests are not a standalone class in China as it was in Europe.

Not a Religious Conflict
My understanding of Chinese religions is that you did not have a clergy class in the government. The government is generally politically neutral or even somehow Machiavellian in religious affairs, while the conflicts of societal values will result in purges of religions, no matter how influential they are. Typically, when the government wants to enforce more rationalism or Sinicized societal values, it will inevitably lead to conflicts with Buddhism and foreign religions. To put it simply, the conflicts of religions in China are not really about tolerance but more about the government's position on societal values. According to the Edict to destroy Buddhism issued by Wuzong of Tang in 843, we can learn from this text:
  1. Buddhism was not a Sinicized religion - Sinicization against Barbarism
  2. Buddhism broke the traditional social structures - Paternalism against Libertarianism
  3. Buddhism was a burden on the economy and harmed peasants' interests - Traditionalists against Capitalists; Rationalists against Spiritualists
Similarly, when it comes to Korea, the Joseon dynasty's persecution of Buddhism was not only an ideological conflict between Confucianism and Buddhism but also more about realpolitik and pragmatism, and to some extent, a reaction to cleanse the influence from the previous dynasty and a proof of Sinicization. For example, when discussing the dissolution of Buddhist sects, the neo-Confucianist minister, Lyu Kwan, suggested that Buddhism was harmful for its violation of moral principles, while helping little but wasting money (亂倫理而有害,費財用而無補). The corruption of Buddhism was also a reason for the persecution: As for the monkish followers, they collect land rents and exact tribute from their slaves, not to support the Buddha or the monastic order, but to fatten their horses and wear fine clothes; some even indulge in wine and sensual pleasures, their desires exceeding those of ordinary people (僧人之徒,收其田租,斂其奴貢,不供佛僧,肥馬輕衣,甚者溺於酒色,其欲倍俗).
(Buddhism) came about in the fall of Han-Wei period, when the decline of China made it possible for the spread of foreign customs. While Buddhism took the rare chance and became so popular, the religion eroded our national morality before anyone took notice of it. The influence of temples, monks, and follower have been increased over time in the two capitals and within all China; Labor was wasted on construction, wealth was seized for decorations, and people are lured to neglect their duties to their lords, relatives, teachers, and spouses. There is no greater way to destroy the law and harm people than this path. 是由季時,傳此異俗,因緣染習,蔓衍滋多。以至於蠹耗國風而漸不覺。誘惑人意,而眾益迷。洎于九州山原,兩京關,僧徒日廣,佛寺日崇。勞人力於土木之功,奪人利於金寶之飾,遺君親於師資之際,違配偶于戒律之間。壞法害人,無逾此道。Moreover, if one man does not farm, there will be those who go hungry; if one woman does not weave, there will be those who suffer from cold. Yet now, the number of monks and nuns across the realm is beyond count—they all rely on farmers for their food and on weavers for their clothing. The temples and monasteries are innumerable, all grandly constructed and richly adorned, arrogantly imitating the dwellings of palaces. During the Jin, Song, Qi, and Liang dynasties, the depletion of material resources and the corruption of customs—all of this arose from such causes. 且一夫不田,有受其饑者;一婦不蠶,有受其寒者。今天下僧尼,不可勝數,皆待農而食,待蠶而衣。寺宇招提,莫知紀極,皆雲構藻飾,僭擬宮居。晉、宋、齊、梁,物力凋瘵,風俗澆詐,莫不由是而致也。

No Clergy class in China
In my previous demographic analysis, we can clearly see the absence of clergy classes, whether Buddhists or Daoists, compared to those in Europe. The clergy in Europe often account for 1.5-4% of the population, while in China, only 0.5%, and as a matter of fact, they were rarely represented in the Confucian government. Although the Ming Dynasty did not impose harsh measures against Buddhism like what happened in Korea, it did limit the number of temples and the land ownership of temples, reduce government sponsorship in religions, and restrict monks' activities among the peasants. Thus, Buddhism continued to decline in the Ming Dynasty.

Since China did not have any clergy class in the government, the representation of religious interest actually lay with the scholar-officials, who insisted on neo-Confucianism but may have their own religions. Xu Guangqi was a great example who defended Catholicism as a high-ranking official-scholar in the court, who suggested that Matteo Ricci complement Confucianism and convert Buddhists, or that Catholicism could replace the position of Buddhism in the Three Teachings system. As evidence, Zhao (2024) depicted the Jesuit-Buddhist debates behind the events traditionally categorized as Catholicism-Confucianism conflicts. I strongly recommend the Four Occupation system instead of the bureaucrats or the clergymen as Chinese estates, which also applied in the Joseon Dynasty and Edo Japan.

Four occupations:
  1. Shì - scholar-officials - who pursue the study of civil or military arts
    • Shì shall not encroach upon the livelihoods of the common people
  2. Nóng: farmers or peasants, who devote themselves to farming and sericulture
  3. Gōng: artisans, who engage in crafts and manufacturing
  4. Shāng: merchants who slaughter animals, sell wine, or trade goods
    • Gōng and Shāng shall not be allowed to become Shì
Edict of Tang Dynasty: Those who pursue the study of civil or military arts are considered scholars (shi); those who devote themselves to farming and sericulture are farmers (nong); those who engage in crafts and manufacturing are artisans (gong); and those who slaughter animals, sell wine, or trade goods are merchants (shang). Households of artisans and merchants shall not be allowed to participate among the scholar class, and those who receive stipends from the state shall not encroach upon the livelihoods of the common people. 凡习学文武者为士,肆力耕桑者为农,工作贸易者为工,屠沽兴贩者为商,工商之家,不得预于士,食禄之人,不得夺下人之利。

Think about Religions
This to me is as bad as naming the religion Buddhism. Because the reality is, that the distinction between Taoism/Confucianism/Buddhism/folk religion is going to end up being fictional. You can't at all split the Chinese population at this time between Taoists, folk religion followers and Buddhists because that divide didn't exist. The people who were genuinely exclusively Buddhists or exclusively Taoists were the exception, not the rule. And even among these, you still see the proliferation of mutual influences and their existence in a larger religious sphere. Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism covered often different aspects of life, different aspects of belief and people gravitated between them constantly. Folk religion was both the thing that gave birth to Taoism and Confucianism, and a practice that was created from them - folk religion intermixed a Buddhist afterlife with a Daoist celestial hierarchy and priorities with Confucian familial values.

Confucianism, folk religion, Chinese Buddhism and Daoism are the manifestations of a single religion. This isn't a matter of syncretism, but that all these currents were formulated within an existing religious framework that dictated their practices and theology. It isn't very different from the Greco-Roman religion that you saw in the final days of the Roman Empire, before getting replaced by Christianity, where you had three manifestations of religion: mystery cults, philosophical religions (like Platonism, Stoicism, etc.), the centralised imperial cult and the popular approaches to faith.

For any interested in reading into Chinese religion, this book provides a good overview:
https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Religion-Contextual-Xinzhong-Yao/dp/1847064760
The problem, as it always has been, is that Europa Universalis's conception of religon is based on the idea of "confession" which works extremely well for depicting Europe with it's hundreds of religious wars and heresies, and for similar reasons the middle east, but kind of falls apart everywhere else.

For China, I think we need to square the following:
A) A system that has multiple interlocking traditions, each with their own philosophical schools, temples and practitioners.
B) A system that could in some cases quite tolerant (EG towards islam) and in other cases extremely repressive (Christianity, Buddhism in Korea).
C) A system that can interact with other regions that practice such religions in a more single minded way (EG South East asian buddhism).

Personally, I think the best approach is for their to be a state level religion, and then seperate pop level "Religions". The population would be listed as "Syncretic", and there would be separate temples and clergies for the various religious traditions within the empire (with some pops being mono-religioned).

The monarch would be able to determine tolerance levels for the different religious traditions of the empire, and this system would be used at a minimum for China, Japan and Korea (but also likely Hinduism and Buddhist states as well, and maybe also further afield like hellenistic pagans as well).

The monarch would have a state ideology, that they can at a cost switch to another tolerated ideology (in China, some monarchs favoured confucianism, others favoured Taoism, others favoured buddhism). If they wish, they can choose to suppress the other religious traditions and shift their state to being a western style "single confession" state, which might have advantages in terms of control.

Finally, each "School" would have an influence score based on the number of religious buildings and adherents in the realm.

Here's a potential example(not intended to be historically accurate):
Ming China
State religion: Neo-Confucianism
Favoured schools: Taoism, Mahayana Buddhism, Chinese Paganism, Ancestor Worship
Disfavoured schools: Islam, Shinto/Japanese paganism, Tibetan Buddhism, Judaism
Banned schools: Catholicism, Animism, Tengriism.
Population: 90% Syncretic, 2% muslim, 1% catholic, small numbers in the other categories (representing clergy/monastic populations).

Each school should be it's own "international organisation", and each should have different levels of influence. Exceptionally influential schools will draw more of the population to not be "syncretic" and become more "single schooled", and certain schools might have rivalries with other schools. Keeping them balanced and having good relations with all of them should grant benefits, especially to control and happier estates.

Choosing which schools are "state religion" and favoured/disfavoured should grant varying benefits but come with varying costs, but this should be more about stability and control and less about stacking modifiers. You might want to intentionally disfavour a school because it makes your other schools happier (EG everyone might get unhappy if catholic missionaries start converting people all over the place and catholicism is judged to be a "threat").

Likewise, certain schools will also not play well with this tolerance system and be inherently single confessional, and hence be harder to manage (Islam and Christianity being good examples, but also certain radical forms of Buddhism like the White Lotus sect or Jodo Shinshu Buddhism/Ikko Ikki).
I generally disagree with the idea that "Confucianism, folk religion, Chinese Buddhism, and Daoism are the manifestations of a single religion." There is a clear line between what is pure Daoism and pure Buddhism (or even pure Confucianism), and I will categorize those who are in the middle as Chinese syncretism, or a type of Chinese aninism. Clearly, you can't confuse Daoist priests with Buddhist monks, though it may be difficult to tell the true followers of each religion. Just leave the unfaithful followers to the syncretists - Chinese Folk Religion (in some cases, it might be called Confucianism, but I prefer Shenism instead).

My example for religions:

Denominations in East Asia
  • Eastern Asian Denominations: Confucian, Shinto, Daoism (Luoism Rebels), etc.
    • or East Asian Animisms: Shenism, Muism, Wuism, Shamanism, some ethnic Animisms (I don't really want global animism denominations in EU4)
  • Buddhism Denominations: Mahayana (White Lotus), Theravada, Azhaliism, Tibetan, etc.
  • Persian Denominations: Zoroastrian, Manichaean (Maitreyan), etc.
  • Christian Denominations: Catholic, Nestorian, etc.
  • Islamic Denominations: Sunnism, etc.
State Religion: Confucianism
  • Harmonized Religions: Shenism, Mahayana, & Daoism
  • Banned Religions: heresies (except Harmonized heresies)
    • For example, Catholicism was banned in the Ming Dynasty not because it was a foreign faith, but Buddhists claimed it was the White Lotus, a heresy of Mahayana. Tibetan Buddhism and Azhaliism were also banned during the Ming Dynasty to support Chinese Buddhism.
  • To replicate Confucianism's conflicts with other religions, I am thinking about allowing adjustment of Confucianism's position on religious affairs to reflect its policy. For example, Joseon chose a position of lower harmony for economic and conversion speed benefits, while it did harm stability and societal values. Generally, Confucius hoped people keep a distance from religions, while having more harmonized religions may move people to a more spiritual and self-devoted stance. In some extreme cases, one religion could become too powerful and usurp the position of Confucianism, especially when a country just converts to Confucianism. Allow any tributary of the Chinese Emperor to become Confucian.
  • Population: 74% Shenism, 16% Buddhism, 8% Daoism (based on 2016 data; Irreligion, Atheism, and Folk Regions are categorized as Shenism for personal purposes; Buddhism is centered in Zhejiang and Fujian, Daoism is centered in Shandong and Jiangxi, Shamanism is centered in Manchuria, etc.).
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
I personally think three teaching is perfect for East Asia. Sanjiao is a sino-centric term, but three teaching is not.

All East Asia countries has religion pattern of Confucianism + Buddism + local folk religion.

China: Confucianism, Buddism, Taoism
Korea: Confucianism, Buddism, Korean folk religion
Japan: Buddism, Shinto, Confucianism
Vietnam: Buddism, Confucianism, Vietnamese folk religion

And their attraction groups are also very close:

Buddism: Most popular religion in Medieval East Asia
Confucianism: Officials, Literati. The influence of these two classes in Japan and Vietnam is relatively small, so the influence of Confucianism is relatively weak.
Taoism / Shinto / Other two folk religions: They have little appeal to the public (Shintoism was in decline in medieval Japan), and survive mainly through legendary stories and ancestor worship.

This is not just coincidence in my opinion.
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Confucianism is not a religion but an ideology

or even religious Confucianism
Why can't Confucianism just be both a ruling ideology and a religion? Is there evidence that this 'religious confucianism' was seen as a separate belief system from a 'real' confucianism that was somehow solely secular? Religions are often also a ruling ideology idk why people insist on making it a problem for Confucianism in particular. It was clearly both. The separation of religion and government and the separation of philosophy and religion didn't really exist outside of the modern world and to a lesser extent Christian Europe. The line you want to draw just didn't exist and drawing it is not helpful and only breeds confusion.

Edit: Otherwise I like a lot of what you said. I would also like it to be more dynamic and have more inclusions.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
The biggest problem with the Three Teachings (San jiao) is the name itself

1. For example, if China is Orthodox, Korea is Catholic, and Japan is Protestant, Vietnam is Copt, then the "general" religious name in East Asia should be Christianity or something new if there is no suitable word like "Christianity". If someone says that since Orthodox is a fact in China, the "general" religious name in East Asia should be Orthodox, then other people cannot agree and accept it.

2. The name of the three teachings ignores sects and folk religions. Which Confucian sect will represent Confucianism? This problem will be the same in Buddhism and Taoism. even if we integrate the sects, where are the local folk religions? If we agree to ignore the local folk religions, the three teachings are right. but at Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, we already agreed to ignore the local folk religions such as Musok and Shinto, so it will be two or one teaching.

So I think we have three options. 1. Try harder to find general names that aren't the worst 2. Choose one religion like other continents. 3. Just divide.
Well, if it's the perfectly correct name for the thing you want then it should be something along the lines of "East Asian moral system and religious syncretism mostly based in the cultural Sinosphere composed of primarily Confucianism, Buddhism and Daoism, with the further admixture of local polytheist beliefs, common in China, Korea, Vietnam and partially Japan".

Now the name's perfect, it's a shame that it's also completely unsuitable for the game.
Some people have suggested to just go back to basics and call the whole thing "Confucianism" like it was in EU4, and honestly it's not a baseless idea either, as long as the mechanics of that religion and its description makes it clear that it's not just Confucianism but a whole umbrella religion that includes stuff that's not inside Confucianism proper.

The name being perfectly technically correct is less important compared to portraying the historical reality of things correctly. "Three Teachings" and other alternatives are decent in that they portray the fundamental truth of extreme syncretism in the region, even if finding a fitting name that fits the requirements for nomenclature in the game isn't the easiest thing. "Mahayana" or "Eastern Buddhism" are particularly unsuitable names because like Confucianism they omit everything else with the added problem that Buddhism is, in a sense, a "foreign" religion to East Asia, being originally from India and having brought rather different religious idea, and if you call that collective religion after Buddhism you're giving a really incorrect idea of how things are working religiously in the area. Also, there are a bunch of countries who were legitimately with Buddhist majorities, and they looked very different from China, while the game would try to portray those as being the same, which is just wrong.

And again, just dividing the religions results in the issue that then you have to divide the pops as well, and you can't divide the pops historically. The whole problem is that people would follow multiple beliefs at once.

I think most of the people in this thread are guilty of some eurocentrism or christiancentrism.

A) Using the name "three teachings" just shifts the problem, but it's still imposing the confessional model of Abrahamic religion on regions where "confession of faith" is a bizarre foreign concept.

B) it assumes "confessions of faith" is the human default. This isn't true. The "messy Chinese syncretism" is much closer to the human default. Most of the world was syncretic the way China was, not confessional the way France was. Certainly the Roman Empire would have been more like China then like France.

C) it ignores the existence of dozens of different sects and schools of thought, many of which only operated regionally, many of which were forbidden or cult like or millenarian. These should all be represented as international organisations with their own buildings and preferences.

D) it ignores that the state had different preferences regarding the influence of different religious communities. EG, China and Korea are undoubtedly in the same religious "milieu", both heavily confucian, but Korea for a long period persecuted Buddhists, while China was generally laissez faire. Or in Japan, mainstream Nichiren Buddhism was accepted, but Jodo Shinshu rather less so.

I don't think it's necessary to depict most pops in non-abrahamic regions as being confessional. They can be left "undefined", instead it's only necessary to depict the influence of the religious organisations themselves, and how they relate to the state, which itself should also have a "state religion", which for most of the game should be confucianism. But also, it should also be possible for single faith "confessionism" to occur, as there were radical confucian and Buddhist sects which wanted to wipe out the other religions.
There's some truth to this, but I don't think it really goes in a useful direction.

It's correct that the problem arises from the game having a fundamentally Abrahamic idea of religion, and that system starts falling apart the further away you move from Abrahamic religions, reaching a total collapse in Asian religiosity. The problem is that this game is also meant to portray the wars of religion in Europe and a good half of the planet following Abrahamic religions, and I don't know if it's realistic at all to reform the pop system mid-way through development so that certain pops are allowed to have multiple religions at once, because you can be a polytheist, a Buddhist and a Daoist at the same time, but not the pops in Europe and the Middle East because you absolutely can't be a Catholic, a Muslim and a Protestant at the same time.

Also, depicting the population of those areas as "undefined" is completely wrong. Their religious beliefs were very defined, and they were made up of all the moral philosophies and religious schools that had come to influence Chinese and East Asian society at the time. That'd come close to depicting the population of China at the time as secular, which was definitely not the case.
Having the umbrella religion to represent this syncretism feels like the simplest way to reconcile the religious reality of East Asia with the fact that the game is built upon each pop having a single religion because ultimately the game also has to represent the Reformation in Europe and the peak of confessionalism in Europe and the Middle East.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Why can't Confucianism just be both a ruling ideology and a religion? Is there evidence that this 'religious confucianism' was seen as a separate belief system from a 'real' confucianism that was somehow solely secular? Religions are often also a ruling ideology idk why people insist on making it a problem for Confucianism in particular. It was clearly both. The separation of religion and government and the separation of philosophy and religion didn't really exist outside of the modern world and to a lesser extent Christian Europe. The line you want to draw just didn't exist and drawing it is not helpful and only breeds confusion.
You can put "Confucianism" in the place of "State Religion", but that does not mean I agree that Confucianism itself is a religion. This is definitely beyond the game.

As I argued, it is not important to identify what is what, but how Confucianism managed religions. Being a Confucian literally means being educated and literate, or you should be classified as a member of folk religions. Confucianism enabled a mechanism that allowed a religious minority, or, more accurately, irreligion, to govern religious affairs through harmony and balance. In history, Confucianism has attacked powerful religions that threaten the government's authority.

There is a clear line to tell non-syncretic Buddhists and Daoists in name, but we accept that lots of them are syncretic, placing them in the third syncretic category. This is not a fiction, but what the Pew did in their 2023 publication.
Screenshot 2025-05-14 at 09.42.38.png

  • In 2021, the U.S. government estimated Buddhists comprise 18.2 percent of the country’s total population, Christians 5.1 percent, Muslims 1.8 percent, followers of folk religions 21.9 percent, and atheists or unaffiliated persons 52.2 percent, with Hindus, Jews, and Taoists comprising less than 1 percent.
  • In 2023, Academia Sinica estimated that in Taiwan, 27.9 percent of the population exclusively practices traditional folk religions, 19.8 percent practices Buddhism, and 18.7 percent practices Taoism, with 23.9 percent identifying as nonbelievers. The rest of the population consists mainly of Protestants (5.5 percent), I-Kuan Tao (2.2 percent), and Catholics (1.4 percent).
Comparing post-Communist and non-Communist societies, both estimates of the percentage of Buddhists came close to roughly 20%, similar to the CGSS survey estimate from the broader approach in 2021. It suggested a relatively stable population of Buddhists and non-Buddhists, while the difference came from the irreligious population. The line between Daoists and folk religion followers may vary in regions, and I know many regions categorize Daoism and folk religion into one. Basically, the works prove Buddhism is separable from the rest of Chinese religions. This is also one of my reasons to put Mahayana into Buddhism categories instead of Eastern ones in EU4.
 
  • 4Like
  • 3
Reactions:
You can put "Confucianism" in the place of "State Religion", but that does not mean I agree that Confucianism itself is a religion. This is definitely beyond the game.

As I argued, it is not important to identify what is what, but how Confucianism managed religions. Being a Confucian literally means being educated and literate, or you should be classified as a member of folk religions. Confucianism enabled a mechanism that allowed a religious minority, or, more accurately, irreligion, to govern religious affairs through harmony and balance. In history, Confucianism has attacked powerful religions that threaten the government's authority.

There is a clear line to tell non-syncretic Buddhists and Daoists in name, but we accept that lots of them are syncretic, placing them in the third syncretic category. This is not a fiction, but what the Pew did in their 2023 publication.
View attachment 1298733
  • In 2021, the U.S. government estimated Buddhists comprise 18.2 percent of the country’s total population, Christians 5.1 percent, Muslims 1.8 percent, followers of folk religions 21.9 percent, and atheists or unaffiliated persons 52.2 percent, with Hindus, Jews, and Taoists comprising less than 1 percent.
  • In 2023, Academia Sinica estimated that in Taiwan, 27.9 percent of the population exclusively practices traditional folk religions, 19.8 percent practices Buddhism, and 18.7 percent practices Taoism, with 23.9 percent identifying as nonbelievers. The rest of the population consists mainly of Protestants (5.5 percent), I-Kuan Tao (2.2 percent), and Catholics (1.4 percent).
Comparing post-Communist and non-Communist societies, both estimates of the percentage of Buddhists came close to roughly 20%, similar to the CGSS survey estimate from the broader approach in 2021. It suggested a relatively stable population of Buddhists and non-Buddhists, while the difference came from the irreligious population. The line between Daoists and folk religion followers may vary in regions, and I know many regions categorize Daoism and folk religion into one. Basically, the works prove Buddhism is separable from the rest of Chinese religions. This is also one of my reasons to put Mahayana into Buddhism categories instead of Eastern ones in EU4.

Contemporary demographic surveys are a very inadequate and anachronistic way to measure the way religion was perceived - you are using data from 2000 to refer to 1300. Chinese religion experienced great changes between 1300 to 2000s and had to deal with republicanism, communism and the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (which was quite impactful despite being short-lived due to the destruction it unleashed on Daoism but also for introducing a form of zealous religious intolerance against faith that was not present in China on this scale before - earlier persecutions of religion targeted organized clergies and societies and texts, not people's individual beliefs). Furthermore, China like the entire world was greatly influenced by the West's own perception of religion and religious affiliation. There was also an attempt that started during the nationalist Republic of China to try to unify or strengthen the bonds between Chinese Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism, as a means of strengthening the connection between Tibet and China, and I believe this also helped in forming a distinct Buddhist identity.

Still, I am not even too sure that these demographic surveys show the full picture even nowadays.

I generally disagree with the idea that "Confucianism, folk religion, Chinese Buddhism, and Daoism are the manifestations of a single religion." There is a clear line between what is pure Daoism and pure Buddhism (or even pure Confucianism), and I will categorize those who are in the middle as Chinese syncretism, or a type of Chinese aninism. Clearly, you can't confuse Daoist priests with Buddhist monks, though it may be difficult to tell the true followers of each religion. Just leave the unfaithful followers to the syncretists - Chinese Folk Religion (in some cases, it might be called Confucianism, but I prefer Shenism instead).

I completely agree that there is a clear line and distinction. I am not arguing here that they are compatible or 'harmonious' philosophies even. Confucianism, Chinese Buddhism and Daoism are entirely very distinct.

However, Confucianism and Daoism were born from an existing Chinese religion and remained within its sphere. The breadth of concepts, practices, and views they share is not just syncreticism - i.e. two distinct things coming together, but are traced to their own origin as products of Chinese religion.. Chinese Buddhism was incorporated into that framework from an originally foreign source.

To help shed light into this, I would recommend looking at other religions. Hinduism also has a history of having various different 'religions' and approaches with entirely different views but that all existed in the same framework of Hinduism. There was once a religious-philosophical tradition in Hinduism - Charvaka - that was atheist outright. Buddhism and Jainism were once considered just another manifestation of Hinduism, prior to a series of developments in Hinduism that are unique to it and led to the separation of those faiths. Still, even nowadays "Hindus" include people who are polytheist, monotheist, pantheist, and have all different views on reality.

Greco-Roman religion is similar. The mystery cults and the philosophical religions like Platonism and Stoicism were very distinct, and had very distinct beliefs and practices. Yet, they were all manifestations in one religion.

I recommend the sources I brought up in this thread as the reason for why I hold these positions. They are much better than I am at explaining it, especially the first one:
 
  • 2
Reactions:
And again, just dividing the religions results in the issue that then you have to divide the pops as well, and you can't divide the pops historically. The whole problem is that people would follow multiple beliefs at once.


There's some truth to this, but I don't think it really goes in a useful direction.

It's correct that the problem arises from the game having a fundamentally Abrahamic idea of religion, and that system starts falling apart the further away you move from Abrahamic religions, reaching a total collapse in Asian religiosity. The problem is that this game is also meant to portray the wars of religion in Europe and a good half of the planet following Abrahamic religions, and I don't know if it's realistic at all to reform the pop system mid-way through development so that certain pops are allowed to have multiple religions at once, because you can be a polytheist, a Buddhist and a Daoist at the same time, but not the pops in Europe and the Middle East because you absolutely can't be a Catholic, a Muslim and a Protestant at the same time.

Also, depicting the population of those areas as "undefined" is completely wrong. Their religious beliefs were very defined, and they were made up of all the moral philosophies and religious schools that had come to influence Chinese and East Asian society at the time. That'd come close to depicting the population of China at the time as secular, which was definitely not the case.
Having the umbrella religion to represent this syncretism feels like the simplest way to reconcile the religious reality of East Asia with the fact that the game is built upon each pop having a single religion because ultimately the game also has to represent the Reformation in Europe and the peak of confessionalism in Europe and the Middle East.
The point I was making is that it's not generally necessary to divide up the pops into religions. They can be simply left as some catchall term, be it "syncretic", "unaffiliated", "confucian" or "Chinese folk religion".

What's only necessary is to show the relative influence of the different religious institutions, and EUV already has a way to show this : international organisations.

Each religion or sect should be it's own independent international organisation, that owns various temples and monasteries and have influence in their surrounding territory. Piss off the Buddhists, and those monasteries might raise levies from their nearby locations.

In this way, you have religions with wealth and influence without requiring pops to be directly affiliated with them via confessions of faith.

The state would choose one of these religions (default confucianism in Japan, Korea and China) as the "state religion" but they can change this at will though it will piss off the international organisation that was previously the state religion. Rulers can, however, still patronise religions that are not the state religion.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Still, I am not even too sure that these demographic surveys show the full picture even nowadays.
Feel free to correct me but from what I understand in Japan 'religion' is viewed only as organized religious organizations. So on Japanese surveys, there are very few Buddhists and Shinto because only the ones in an organization are included, even though millions more believe and practice the religion. Is it possible China might be the same?
 
Feel free to correct me but from what I understand in Japan 'religion' is viewed only as organized religious organizations. So on Japanese surveys, there are very few Buddhists and Shinto because only the ones in an organization are included, even though millions more believe and practice the religion. Is it possible China might be the same?
I would say China and especially Taiwan are similar, but communism complicates things.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I think most of the people in this thread are guilty of some eurocentrism or christiancentrism.
While I agree with this notion, I believe we still need to identify a religious system in the framework of the game. Hinduism is not one monolithic religion but rather a grouping of many different kinds of beliefs, and by grouping them together, we can build flavorful mechanics around it. I believe the same can be done with East Asia, where grouping them under “Three Teachings” with mechanics that help portray the many different religions that play a role in it is sufficient from a gameplay perspective.
 
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
Feel free to correct me but from what I understand in Japan 'religion' is viewed only as organized religious organizations. So on Japanese surveys, there are very few Buddhists and Shinto because only the ones in an organization are included, even though millions more believe and practice the religion. Is it possible China might be the same?
IMG_2056.jpeg
 
My understanding of Chinese religions is that you did not have a clergy class in the government. The government is generally politically neutral or even somehow Machiavellian in religious affairs, while the conflicts of societal values will result in purges of religions, no matter how influential they are.

This is very much the influence of Confucianism, or the subtle historic movement back in the days of 1000-700BCE that gave birth to Scholar-Officials at first place. Confucius or "儒生"'s "儒" was originally referring to clergy-scholar type of officials, which were servants to feudal lords that with-holding the knowledge of how mythical rites and rituals should be performed back in Zhou Dynasty (儒,术士之称) (四曰儒,以道得民).

However, as society evolves, the clergy part of "儒"'s duties become less and less important to the political and scholar part of their duties. While Zhou Dynasty in itself. tends to down-play the mythical part of their nobles' divine right to avoid the empowerment of priest class, merging priest duties to duties of their servant and nobilities. Confucius himself admire this strategy in governance. Confucianism, as a result, associate their moral codes, virtue and text with the interactions among mortal men/women.

After ancient Zhou system of governance collapsed in the reforms made by various warring state around 300 BCE, new society and political hierarchy emerged. Officials are ranked and focused on no more the "clans'" business, but the "state's" business.


Confucianism is not a religion but an ideology
To a great extent, religions are just ideologies with mythical factor, political organization and rituals.

In my previous demographic analysis, we can clearly see the absence of clergy classes, whether Buddhists or Daoists, compared to those in Europe. The clergy in Europe often account for 1.5-4% of the population, while in China, only 0.5%, and as a matter of fact, they were rarely represented in the Confucian government.

True, since governance and other art of politics, philosophy and sociology were rationalized to have little to none mythological factor way before the form of imperial China.

share is not just syncretism - i.e. two distinct things coming together, but are traced to their own origin as products of Chinese religion.

Pragmatic rationale (实用理性) would be a better reason for that, which means that Chinese adaptation of different religions are based on whether their values and policies have physical value rather than spiritual guidance.

Overall, my opinion is that you either have a single Confucianism as a state-religion to represent its absolutely dominating role in political life of Imperial Chinese society + a Syncretism mechanic let you pick a secondary, or you have a separation of belief between "士绅" (scholar-official + rural gentlemen) and the others. Otherwise you end up in a lazy and 1 dimensional western portrait of "Oriental China". A society which spiritual world (at least) is all nice and harmonic, with no difference in people in faith.

But wait, why peasants there singing "Heil White Lotus" then go rebel pump themselves to my standing army? What's Four Buddhist Persecutions in China (三武灭佛)? Am I dying because I scold my dad and the law forbids that? What's defining those laws anyway? Not Buddhism I believe....


More formal answer, to some extent, on why I think you should have Confucianism as primary:


Confucianism Relationship with Buddhism and Daoism​


Coexistence and Hierarchy: Buddhism and Daoism entered the Chinese cultural sphere (beginning in the Han and flourishing in later dynasties) and attracted widespread followings. However, rather than displacing Confucianism, these religions were typically accommodated under a Confucian umbrella. The traditional formulation was “Three Teachings” (三教) – referring to Confucianism (儒), Buddhism (释), and Daoism (道) – which were seen as three avenues of wisdom. The balance of the Three Teachings, however, was not equal in the public realm. Confucianism generally claimed primacy in state and social ethics, with Buddhism and Daoism occupying more specialized spiritual or metaphysical roles. A famous dictum described the ideal as “Confucianism for outward social life, Daoism or Buddhism for inner cultivation”, a phenomenon dubbed “Confucian exterior, Daoist/Buddhist interior” (儒表道里 / 儒表佛里) by the scholars. In practice, this meant a Chinese scholar-official might practice Confucian duties by day (governing according to Confucian norms) while pursuing Buddhist meditation or Daoist longevity practices in private. The outer layer of society – government, family rites, education – was Confucian, whereas personal faith and cosmology could draw from Buddhism/Daoism. This layering ensured Confucianism’s dominance in the visible socio-political structure, even as individuals found spiritual fulfillment in other teachings.


State Attitudes and Integration: The imperial state largely tolerated Buddhism and Daoism as long as they did not challenge imperial authority or social order. In fact, Confucian officials often took a syncretic view, seeing value in Buddhist and Daoist teachings but insisting on Confucian-guided governance. As the Confucian historian Ban Gu wrote in the Han era, “the Daoist and the Confucian both serve the sovereign”, implying each had its place under Heaven’s order. The government regulated Buddhism and Daoism (for example, through monastic registration or occasional suppression of heterodox sects), but did not seek to eradicate them outright, consistent with the Confucian principle of “inclusiveness and blending” (兼容并蓄). Confucianism itself teaches respect for spiritual beings but distance from superstition“Respect the ghosts and spirits, but keep them at a distance” (敬鬼神而远之), as Confucius is quoted in the Analects. Accordingly, excessively fervent or disorderly religious practices were labeled “improper worship” (淫祀) and were banned by the state, but normative Buddhist and Daoist worship was generally allowed, even patronized at times, so long as Confucian civil order remained intact. This arrangement led to what sociologists call “functional differentiation” among the Three Teachings: Confucianism defined the public ethical code, Buddhism offered salvation and metaphysics, and Daoism provided ritual magic and cosmology (fddi.fudan.edu.cn). Each tradition influenced the others (e.g. Neo-Confucianism in Song dynasty absorbed Buddhist/Daoist concepts in its metaphysics), yet the state’s identity and ceremonies stayed fundamentally Confucian.


Korea, Japan, and Vietnam: A similar pattern unfolded in other East Asian cultures within the Confucian cultural sphere. In Korea’s Joseon Dynasty, for instance, Neo-Confucianism was adopted as state ideology and Buddhism was actively suppressed from politics (though it survived among commoners). In Tokugawa Japan, Neo-Confucian ethics underpinned governance, even as Shinto and Buddhist practices coexisted. Vietnam’s imperial court also elevated Confucian literati and rites to official status. In all these cases, Confucianism acted as the unifying moral-political doctrine, while Buddhism, Daoism (or Shinto) catered to personal and communal religiosity. This East Asian model of “Confucian civil religion” contrasts with the Western pattern of a dominant church; instead of one institutional church, Confucianism provided an ethical-religious canopy under which plural worship traditions coexisted.

Folk Religion and Syncretism​


Local Cults under a Confucian Canopy: At the local level, Chinese communities practiced a rich variety of folk religions – worshipping ancestors, local deities, and performing seasonal festivals. These practices often blended Buddhist and Daoist elements (temple rites, cosmology) with Confucian elements (ancestor veneration, filial piety). Importantly, Confucianism shaped the normative framework for acceptable local worship. The lineage rituals in ancestral halls, village etiquette, and family ceremonies were guided by Confucian ancestral rites (祀典). Clan lineages built ancestral shrines and compiled genealogies as prescribed by Confucian norms, effectively making ancestral worship a universal “religious” duty of Chinese families. This aspect of Confucianism functioned as the religion of the household and community, even for people who also prayed at Buddhist temples or Daoist shrines. A modern observer noted on Zhihu that “it is precisely because Confucianism dominated China’s sacrificial rites that it acquired religious characteristics”. In this sense, Confucianism became “the common people’s religion and the state’s religion”, providing a shared ritual language across society.


Religious Syncretism in Practice: The ordinary Chinese person in late imperial times did not strictly identify as “Confucian” or “Buddhist” in an exclusive way. Instead, people tended to draw from all Three Teachings as needed – a phenomenon sometimes called “religious syncretism” or sanjiao heyi. For example, a villager might adhere to Confucian family ethics and life-cycle rites, worship at a Daoist temple for a local deity, and invite Buddhist monks to perform funerals to ensure a favorable rebirth for the deceased. Matteo Ricci, the 17th-century Jesuit, famously described the Chinese as having “Three Sects” that were not mutually exclusive religions, noting that these did not fight “to the death” as in Europe’s sectarian conflicts Instead, the Three Teachings were intertwined in daily life: “In many fundamental forms they were similar”, sharing concepts like Heaven, virtue, and the soul (fddi.fudan.edu.cn). This high degree of syncretism is why modern Chinese often say “we have no religion” in the Western sense – traditional Chinese religiosity was diffuse and blended.


However, even amid syncretism, Confucianism often played the leading role in integrative schemes. Popular religious movements sometimes explicitly combined the Three Teachings into one sect – for instance, the late Ming era saw the rise of the Three Teachings Harmonious as One movement. Groups like the “Three-One Teachings” (三一教) in Fujian or the “Three Teachings Hall” (三教堂) in Henan taught that Confucius, Laozi, and Buddha should be venerated together as equally sacred. These syncretic sects worshipped a merged pantheon and sought to erase boundaries between religions. Yet, it is telling that even these movements included Confucius among their highest deities and often couched their moral teachings in Confucian terms. The inclusion of Confucius alongside the Buddha indicates that Confucian ethical authority remained indispensable. Likewise, many household altars in China would feature images or plaques of “Heaven” (天) or Confucius (as Ultimate Sage) next to Buddhist or folk gods – symbolizing that Confucian Heaven was the ultimate overseer. Anthropologists have noted that Chinese popular religion could be described as Tianzuism (天祖教) – the worship of Heaven and ancestors – which is essentially the religious aspect of Confucianism. Thus, even the syncretic folk religion environment was grounded in Confucian cosmology of Heaven-Family reciprocity.

Some critiques of the “Sanjiao as One”​


The idea of “Three Teachings as One” (三教合流) has been debated by scholars, with some arguing that it overstates the equality of the three traditions. Critics point out that Confucianism never relinquished its primacy in the socio-political domain. Educated elites might have drawn on Buddhism or Daoism for personal cultivation, but their public identity and values were fundamentally Confucian. The civil service examinations, governing norms, and social mores all continued to be dictated by Confucian classics and doctrine, not by Buddhist sutras or Daoist texts.


Modern historians also caution that “Three Teachings as One” was more of an intellectual slogan or ideal rather than a literal description of how the traditions functioned. It gained popularity in the late Ming (16th–17th centuries) when some literati and monks sought common ground between the teachings (ccj.pku.edu.cn). However, even at this high point of syncretic discourse, the Ming state still enforced Confucian propriety above all. As evidence, Ming law codes penalized heterodox sects, and emperors like Hongwu and Yongzheng issued edicts reaffirming Confucian values while curtailing Buddhist and Daoist clerical privileges. The rhetoric of unity often aimed to reduce sectarian strife, not to erase Confucian authority.


Chen Yinke offered a nuanced critique: he noted that while all three teachings coexisted and structurally mirrored each other in Chinese culture, Confucianism’s role was unique in shaping institutions. Chen wrote, “For the past two thousand years, the influence of Confucian teachings – the deepest and greatest – has been in the sphere of institutions, laws, and daily life, whereas in the realm of speculative thought, it was perhaps less than that of Buddhism or Daoism.” (《天师道与滨海地域之关系》) This suggests that Buddhism and Daoism were highly influential in philosophy and personal spirituality, but Confucianism dominated the practical world of family, state, and society. Thus, even if in metaphysical discussions one might treat the three teachings as parallel, in concrete social reality Confucian norms were “more equal than others.”


Finally, it is worth noting that the very notion of Confucianism (Ruism or 儒教) as a “religion” has been debated. Some argue Confucianism is primarily a philosophy or “civil ethic”, not a religion in the strict sense, because it lacks a priestly class and focuses on this-worldly ethics. However, many scholars (and an increasing number of Chinese intellectuals today) recognize Confucianism’s religious dimensions: its reverence for Heaven and ancestors, its temples to Confucius, and its role in offering ultimate meaning and moral order. Confucianism can be, however, “a different kind of religion” – one centered on social ritual and moral cultivation. Throughout history, Confucianism did function as a religion by organizing communal life around sacred rites and moral law. This sui generis nature of Confucianism – a “political religion” or civil faith – meant that it could absorb and coexist with devotional religions like Buddhism, while still providing the overarching identity of the civilization.

Conclusion​


In summary, Confucianism served as the dominant ideological and religious framework of East Asian societies (most explicitly in imperial China) by defining the state’s values, rituals, and social norms. Even as Buddhism, Daoism, and folk beliefs flourished among the populace, they did so in a milieu governed by Confucian ethical ideals and ritual structures. The widespread syncretism of the Three Teachings should not obscure the fact that Confucianism was the anchor of official culture – the curriculum for officials, the ceremony for emperors, and the etiquette for families. The “Three Teachings as One” concept, while highlighting harmony, is better understood as an expression of compatibility under Confucian aegis rather than literal equality. As ancient and modern scholars have indicated, Confucianism’s influence lay in ordering the human world – family hierarchy, social duties, political loyalty, and reverence for Heaven – which provided a foundation upon which other religious practices could comfortably rest (fddi.fudan.edu.cn, rujiazg.com). This Confucian bedrock shaped East Asian “religious naming conventions” and identities: people in East Asia historically did not need to choose one exclusive faith, because Confucianism as a civil religion overrules multiple beliefs with a unifying moral cosmos.
 
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Well, if it's the perfectly correct name for the thing you want then it should be something along the lines of "East Asian moral system and religious syncretism mostly based in the cultural Sinosphere composed of primarily Confucianism, Buddhism and Daoism, with the further admixture of local polytheist beliefs, common in China, Korea, Vietnam and partially Japan".

Now the name's perfect, it's a shame that it's also completely unsuitable for the game.
Some people have suggested to just go back to basics and call the whole thing "Confucianism" like it was in EU4, and honestly it's not a baseless idea either, as long as the mechanics of that religion and its description makes it clear that it's not just Confucianism but a whole umbrella religion that includes stuff that's not inside Confucianism proper.

The name being perfectly technically correct is less important compared to portraying the historical reality of things correctly. "Three Teachings" and other alternatives are decent in that they portray the fundamental truth of extreme syncretism in the region, even if finding a fitting name that fits the requirements for nomenclature in the game isn't the easiest thing. "Mahayana" or "Eastern Buddhism" are particularly unsuitable names because like Confucianism they omit everything else with the added problem that Buddhism is, in a sense, a "foreign" religion to East Asia, being originally from India and having brought rather different religious idea, and if you call that collective religion after Buddhism you're giving a really incorrect idea of how things are working religiously in the area. Also, there are a bunch of countries who were legitimately with Buddhist majorities, and they looked very different from China, while the game would try to portray those as being the same, which is just wrong.

And again, just dividing the religions results in the issue that then you have to divide the pops as well, and you can't divide the pops historically. The whole problem is that people would follow multiple beliefs at once.

What were the three teachings?
Since ancient times, under the emperor's leadership, Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism have had philosophical discussions about whose "teachings" are correct, supplementing their weak points and influencing each other. Isn't it a religion with systematic doctrines, organizations, and scriptures, or a religious philosophy that explain the principles of the world?

I think This is where Taoism and the worship of historical figures like Yue Fei and Guan Yu, traditional ancestral gods of each ethnic group, shamanism, and animism are divided. Unlike other Chinese folk religions, Taoism has systematic doctrines, organizations, and scriptures, and it is possible to have a philosophical debate with Confucianism and Buddhism about whose teachings are correct.

However, Korean musok is not much different from Chinese folk religion. It is just a lifestyle, worship a historical person or mythical being, or shamanism and animism. Japanese Shinto is more systematic than musok, but it is also a religion that lacks systematic doctrine, organization, and scriptures. I don't know much about Vietnamese folk religion, but I don't think it is much different.

That is why the three teachings are not fit in the option of finding common features and giving them a general name at east asia religion. The three teachings are more suitable for the option of dividing China, Korea, Japan, and Vietnam into different areas without finding common features. In the process of finding a common denominator for a universal name, suggestions such as burning incense, performing rituals, and praying for bless have come up, and someone may come up with a better idea. Using new words, Write it as it is pronounced, or using terms from orient or East Asian religions can also be universal name choices.

Anyway, I have high expectations after seeing the religious mechanism of India that came out today.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
This is very much the influence of Confucianism, or the subtle historic movement back in the days of 1000-700BCE that gave birth to Scholar-Officials at first place. Confucius or "儒生"'s "儒" was originally referring to clergy-scholar type of officials, which were servants to feudal lords that with-holding the knowledge of how mythical rites and rituals should be performed back in Zhou Dynasty (儒,术士之称) (四曰儒,以道得民).

However, as society evolves, the clergy part of "儒"'s duties become less and less important to the political and scholar part of their duties. While Zhou Dynasty in itself. tends to down-play the mythical part of their nobles' divine right to avoid the empowerment of priest class, merging priest duties to duties of their servant and nobilities. Confucius himself admire this strategy in governance. Confucianism, as a result, associate their moral codes, virtue and text with the interactions among mortal men/women.

After ancient Zhou system of governance collapsed in the reforms made by various warring state around 300 BCE, new society and political hierarchy emerged. Officials are ranked and focused on no more the "clans'" business, but the "state's" business.



To a great extent, religions are just ideologies with mythical factor, political organization and rituals.



True, since governance and other art of politics, philosophy and sociology were rationalized to have little to none mythological factor way before the form of imperial China.



Pragmatic rationale (实用理性) would be a better reason for that, which means that Chinese adaptation of different religions are based on whether their values and policies have physical value rather than spiritual guidance.

Overall, my opinion is that you either have a single Confucianism as a state-religion to represent its absolutely dominating role in political life of Imperial Chinese society + a Syncretism mechanic let you pick a secondary, or you have a separation of belief between "士绅" (scholar-official + rural gentlemen) and the others. Otherwise you end up in a lazy and 1 dimensional western portrait of "Oriental China". A society which spiritual world (at least) is all nice and harmonic, with no difference in people in faith.

But wait, why peasants there singing "Heil White Lotus" then go rebel pump themselves to my standing army? What's Four Buddhist Persecutions in China (三武灭佛)? Am I dying because I scold my dad and the law forbids that? What's defining those laws anyway? Not Buddhism I believe....


More formal answer, to some extent, on why I think you should have Confucianism as primary:


Confucianism Relationship with Buddhism and Daoism​


Coexistence and Hierarchy: Buddhism and Daoism entered the Chinese cultural sphere (beginning in the Han and flourishing in later dynasties) and attracted widespread followings. However, rather than displacing Confucianism, these religions were typically accommodated under a Confucian umbrella. The traditional formulation was “Three Teachings” (三教) – referring to Confucianism (儒), Buddhism (释), and Daoism (道) – which were seen as three avenues of wisdom. The balance of the Three Teachings, however, was not equal in the public realm. Confucianism generally claimed primacy in state and social ethics, with Buddhism and Daoism occupying more specialized spiritual or metaphysical roles. A famous dictum described the ideal as “Confucianism for outward social life, Daoism or Buddhism for inner cultivation”, a phenomenon dubbed “Confucian exterior, Daoist/Buddhist interior” (儒表道里 / 儒表佛里) by the scholars. In practice, this meant a Chinese scholar-official might practice Confucian duties by day (governing according to Confucian norms) while pursuing Buddhist meditation or Daoist longevity practices in private. The outer layer of society – government, family rites, education – was Confucian, whereas personal faith and cosmology could draw from Buddhism/Daoism. This layering ensured Confucianism’s dominance in the visible socio-political structure, even as individuals found spiritual fulfillment in other teachings.


State Attitudes and Integration: The imperial state largely tolerated Buddhism and Daoism as long as they did not challenge imperial authority or social order. In fact, Confucian officials often took a syncretic view, seeing value in Buddhist and Daoist teachings but insisting on Confucian-guided governance. As the Confucian historian Ban Gu wrote in the Han era, “the Daoist and the Confucian both serve the sovereign”, implying each had its place under Heaven’s order. The government regulated Buddhism and Daoism (for example, through monastic registration or occasional suppression of heterodox sects), but did not seek to eradicate them outright, consistent with the Confucian principle of “inclusiveness and blending” (兼容并蓄). Confucianism itself teaches respect for spiritual beings but distance from superstition“Respect the ghosts and spirits, but keep them at a distance” (敬鬼神而远之), as Confucius is quoted in the Analects. Accordingly, excessively fervent or disorderly religious practices were labeled “improper worship” (淫祀) and were banned by the state, but normative Buddhist and Daoist worship was generally allowed, even patronized at times, so long as Confucian civil order remained intact. This arrangement led to what sociologists call “functional differentiation” among the Three Teachings: Confucianism defined the public ethical code, Buddhism offered salvation and metaphysics, and Daoism provided ritual magic and cosmology (fddi.fudan.edu.cn). Each tradition influenced the others (e.g. Neo-Confucianism in Song dynasty absorbed Buddhist/Daoist concepts in its metaphysics), yet the state’s identity and ceremonies stayed fundamentally Confucian.


Korea, Japan, and Vietnam: A similar pattern unfolded in other East Asian cultures within the Confucian cultural sphere. In Korea’s Joseon Dynasty, for instance, Neo-Confucianism was adopted as state ideology and Buddhism was actively suppressed from politics (though it survived among commoners). In Tokugawa Japan, Neo-Confucian ethics underpinned governance, even as Shinto and Buddhist practices coexisted. Vietnam’s imperial court also elevated Confucian literati and rites to official status. In all these cases, Confucianism acted as the unifying moral-political doctrine, while Buddhism, Daoism (or Shinto) catered to personal and communal religiosity. This East Asian model of “Confucian civil religion” contrasts with the Western pattern of a dominant church; instead of one institutional church, Confucianism provided an ethical-religious canopy under which plural worship traditions coexisted.

Folk Religion and Syncretism​


Local Cults under a Confucian Canopy: At the local level, Chinese communities practiced a rich variety of folk religions – worshipping ancestors, local deities, and performing seasonal festivals. These practices often blended Buddhist and Daoist elements (temple rites, cosmology) with Confucian elements (ancestor veneration, filial piety). Importantly, Confucianism shaped the normative framework for acceptable local worship. The lineage rituals in ancestral halls, village etiquette, and family ceremonies were guided by Confucian ancestral rites (祀典). Clan lineages built ancestral shrines and compiled genealogies as prescribed by Confucian norms, effectively making ancestral worship a universal “religious” duty of Chinese families. This aspect of Confucianism functioned as the religion of the household and community, even for people who also prayed at Buddhist temples or Daoist shrines. A modern observer noted on Zhihu that “it is precisely because Confucianism dominated China’s sacrificial rites that it acquired religious characteristics”. In this sense, Confucianism became “the common people’s religion and the state’s religion”, providing a shared ritual language across society.


Religious Syncretism in Practice: The ordinary Chinese person in late imperial times did not strictly identify as “Confucian” or “Buddhist” in an exclusive way. Instead, people tended to draw from all Three Teachings as needed – a phenomenon sometimes called “religious syncretism” or sanjiao heyi. For example, a villager might adhere to Confucian family ethics and life-cycle rites, worship at a Daoist temple for a local deity, and invite Buddhist monks to perform funerals to ensure a favorable rebirth for the deceased. Matteo Ricci, the 17th-century Jesuit, famously described the Chinese as having “Three Sects” that were not mutually exclusive religions, noting that these did not fight “to the death” as in Europe’s sectarian conflicts Instead, the Three Teachings were intertwined in daily life: “In many fundamental forms they were similar”, sharing concepts like Heaven, virtue, and the soul (fddi.fudan.edu.cn). This high degree of syncretism is why modern Chinese often say “we have no religion” in the Western sense – traditional Chinese religiosity was diffuse and blended.


However, even amid syncretism, Confucianism often played the leading role in integrative schemes. Popular religious movements sometimes explicitly combined the Three Teachings into one sect – for instance, the late Ming era saw the rise of the Three Teachings Harmonious as One movement. Groups like the “Three-One Teachings” (三一教) in Fujian or the “Three Teachings Hall” (三教堂) in Henan taught that Confucius, Laozi, and Buddha should be venerated together as equally sacred. These syncretic sects worshipped a merged pantheon and sought to erase boundaries between religions. Yet, it is telling that even these movements included Confucius among their highest deities and often couched their moral teachings in Confucian terms. The inclusion of Confucius alongside the Buddha indicates that Confucian ethical authority remained indispensable. Likewise, many household altars in China would feature images or plaques of “Heaven” (天) or Confucius (as Ultimate Sage) next to Buddhist or folk gods – symbolizing that Confucian Heaven was the ultimate overseer. Anthropologists have noted that Chinese popular religion could be described as Tianzuism (天祖教) – the worship of Heaven and ancestors – which is essentially the religious aspect of Confucianism. Thus, even the syncretic folk religion environment was grounded in Confucian cosmology of Heaven-Family reciprocity.

Some critiques of the “Sanjiao as One”​


The idea of “Three Teachings as One” (三教合流) has been debated by scholars, with some arguing that it overstates the equality of the three traditions. Critics point out that Confucianism never relinquished its primacy in the socio-political domain. Educated elites might have drawn on Buddhism or Daoism for personal cultivation, but their public identity and values were fundamentally Confucian. The civil service examinations, governing norms, and social mores all continued to be dictated by Confucian classics and doctrine, not by Buddhist sutras or Daoist texts.


Modern historians also caution that “Three Teachings as One” was more of an intellectual slogan or ideal rather than a literal description of how the traditions functioned. It gained popularity in the late Ming (16th–17th centuries) when some literati and monks sought common ground between the teachings (ccj.pku.edu.cn). However, even at this high point of syncretic discourse, the Ming state still enforced Confucian propriety above all. As evidence, Ming law codes penalized heterodox sects, and emperors like Hongwu and Yongzheng issued edicts reaffirming Confucian values while curtailing Buddhist and Daoist clerical privileges. The rhetoric of unity often aimed to reduce sectarian strife, not to erase Confucian authority.


Chen Yinke offered a nuanced critique: he noted that while all three teachings coexisted and structurally mirrored each other in Chinese culture, Confucianism’s role was unique in shaping institutions. Chen wrote, “For the past two thousand years, the influence of Confucian teachings – the deepest and greatest – has been in the sphere of institutions, laws, and daily life, whereas in the realm of speculative thought, it was perhaps less than that of Buddhism or Daoism.” (《天师道与滨海地域之关系》) This suggests that Buddhism and Daoism were highly influential in philosophy and personal spirituality, but Confucianism dominated the practical world of family, state, and society. Thus, even if in metaphysical discussions one might treat the three teachings as parallel, in concrete social reality Confucian norms were “more equal than others.”


Finally, it is worth noting that the very notion of Confucianism (Ruism or 儒教) as a “religion” has been debated. Some argue Confucianism is primarily a philosophy or “civil ethic”, not a religion in the strict sense, because it lacks a priestly class and focuses on this-worldly ethics. However, many scholars (and an increasing number of Chinese intellectuals today) recognize Confucianism’s religious dimensions: its reverence for Heaven and ancestors, its temples to Confucius, and its role in offering ultimate meaning and moral order. Confucianism can be, however, “a different kind of religion” – one centered on social ritual and moral cultivation. Throughout history, Confucianism did function as a religion by organizing communal life around sacred rites and moral law. This sui generis nature of Confucianism – a “political religion” or civil faith – meant that it could absorb and coexist with devotional religions like Buddhism, while still providing the overarching identity of the civilization.

Conclusion​


In summary, Confucianism served as the dominant ideological and religious framework of East Asian societies (most explicitly in imperial China) by defining the state’s values, rituals, and social norms. Even as Buddhism, Daoism, and folk beliefs flourished among the populace, they did so in a milieu governed by Confucian ethical ideals and ritual structures. The widespread syncretism of the Three Teachings should not obscure the fact that Confucianism was the anchor of official culture – the curriculum for officials, the ceremony for emperors, and the etiquette for families. The “Three Teachings as One” concept, while highlighting harmony, is better understood as an expression of compatibility under Confucian aegis rather than literal equality. As ancient and modern scholars have indicated, Confucianism’s influence lay in ordering the human world – family hierarchy, social duties, political loyalty, and reverence for Heaven – which provided a foundation upon which other religious practices could comfortably rest (fddi.fudan.edu.cn, rujiazg.com). This Confucian bedrock shaped East Asian “religious naming conventions” and identities: people in East Asia historically did not need to choose one exclusive faith, because Confucianism as a civil religion overrules multiple beliefs with a unifying moral cosmos.
In my mind, we should keep Confucianism (or any "Chinese" religion) as "state religion" (state ideology), while implementing more interactions on management of different religions instead of talking about what is Confucianism from a religious perspective. My hope for the "state religion" is that it can depict the dynamics of inter-religion relationships instead of saying they are the same, they are just one faith, they are homogeneous. That's why I said harmonization and the interplay of factions were great precedents.

My second point is that East Asian Animisms or a variety of folk religions (incl. Daoism or Chinese folk religion for Chinese and Yao, Benzhuism for Bai, Musim for Korean, Shinto for Japanese), though they may syncretize Buddhism, are separable from those religions in the Buddhism groups. It is clearly "Confucianism", Daoism, and Shinto are very different from Tibetan Buddhism, Theravada, and Vajrayana, though they shared much with Chinese Mahayana.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
What were the three teachings?
Since ancient times, under the emperor's leadership, Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism have had philosophical discussions about whose "teachings" are correct, supplementing their weak points and influencing each other. Isn't it a religion with systematic doctrines, organizations, and scriptures, or a religious philosophy that explain the principles of the world?

I think This is where Taoism and the worship of historical figures like Yue Fei and Guan Yu, traditional ancestral gods of each ethnic group, shamanism, and animism are divided. Unlike other Chinese folk religions, Taoism has systematic doctrines, organizations, and scriptures, and it is possible to have a philosophical debate with Confucianism and Buddhism about whose teachings are correct.

However, Korean musok is not much different from Chinese folk religion. It is just a lifestyle, worship a historical person or mythical being, or shamanism and animism. Japanese Shinto is more systematic than musok, but it is also a religion that lacks systematic doctrine, organization, and scriptures. I don't know much about Vietnamese folk religion, but I don't think it is much different.

That is why the three teachings are not fit in the option of finding common features and giving them a general name at east asia religion. The three teachings are more suitable for the option of dividing China, Korea, Japan, and Vietnam into different areas without finding common features. In the process of finding a common denominator for a universal name, suggestions such as burning incense, performing rituals, and praying for bless have come up, and someone may come up with a better idea. Using new words, Write it as it is pronounced, or using terms from orient or East Asian religions can also be universal name choices.

Anyway, I have high expectations after seeing the religious mechanism of India that came out today.
My point is that a name is just a name, and you can't really find a short, sweet and simple name to describe East Asian religiosity.
Three Teachings is technically incorrect, like most names, because it seemingly excludes folk religion when that should also be part of the mix, but it is a pretty cool name to signal the mixture that's going on.

Again, the form is less important than the substance, and this is a video game that has weird requirements that have nothing to do with historical accuracy, such as having catchy and simple to understand names for certain things like religions.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
I look at religion mechanically from the pop level (which is where I get things like splitting Christianity on rite instead of communion), which leads me to ask the question: what are the lines that someone in this area in the world would talk to someone else and think "this person believes in something that isn't what I believe in?"

Those are the lines that must be drawn, and the lines that matter, because those are the lines that the game is applying things like religious conversion and the like to.

I'm phrasing this as a leading question because I genuinely have no idea how it'd apply to this region of the world.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
My point is that a name is just a name, and you can't really find a short, sweet and simple name to describe East Asian religiosity.
Three Teachings is technically incorrect, like most names, because it seemingly excludes folk religion when that should also be part of the mix, but it is a pretty cool name to signal the mixture that's going on.

Again, the form is less important than the substance, and this is a video game that has weird requirements that have nothing to do with historical accuracy, such as having catchy and simple to understand names for certain things like religions.

That is really good point. not 3 and also not teaching and this is just game then why use three teaching? maybe Far east teachings will be better than three teaching for east asian religion.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Again, the form is less important than the substance, and this is a video game that has weird requirements that have nothing to do with historical accuracy, such as having catchy and simple to understand names for certain things like religions.

True.

I mean, the main issue for me is that I’m not privileged with our beloved pre-alpha version of the game. So, how exactly can internal mechanisms be twisted is so far unclear to me.

So, if we get like “secondary religion” thing work like in EU4, I fail to see why stands with the “Confucianism” name is wrong.

But, if you have to find a fallback name, Three Teachings might be the choice. Since it is just better than Mahayana.

Mechanically speaking, I think the adding of a “Three teachings” or “Confucianism” can be set with aligning Mahayana with other Buddhisms. Convert all “Three teachings” to Mahayana can then become an Achievement called “Bodhidharma‘s legacy” (达摩的遗产) or “From An you get Buddha” (referring to the earliest translator of Buddhism to Chinese An Shigao).
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions: