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Surreptitious Son of Serendip
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May 28, 2004
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Rule-making in Victoria MP

As I read the threads of past and present MP games, I am increasingly struck by the problems players have concerning house rules, the ones groups make to regulate the game. No other facet of play causes so many groups to break up, so many furious public accusations of bad faith, and so many "I'll never play with you again" posts. Recently, I made the foolish mistake of joining a group with incomplete and fixed rules, a group which now struggles to carry on after the departure of its most important player: the guy who hosted all their games.

Given my past experience in tabletop gaming with diverse personalities, I really should have asked more questions. The two most important ones being "Who's in charge, or is this a pure democracy?" and "What methods exist for changing rules throughout the game?"

Opinions on rule-making vary widely. A large number of people hold to the following views: "Rules should be kept to a minimum and certainly should not be changed in-game", "no player should adjust his play style to suit others", and "a binding system of group decision-making is not necessary". We will consider each of these opinions in turn.


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"Rules should be kept to a minimum. Rules should not be changed in-game."

- There are many games that require few house rules. Tetris, Checkers, even Chess are all well-polished, stable games with most or all of their rules cleaned up and made obvious through innate simplicity or the passage of time.

- There is another class of game. Whether through innate complexity, potential of the existing rules for abuse, or simple lack of polish, some games require the players to actively make decisions about gameplay throughout the course of play. I often play an Avalon Hill board game called "Kingmaker". Its printed rules are slightly vague, capable of being mis-interpreted, and in a few cases capable of abuse. Because the weak patches are non-obvious at game start, the problems will normally not be realized until somebody trips on them. The group then has to discuss how to handle the case. Word of advice: Do not play "Kingmaker" with people who think rules must be perfected beforehand.

- "Victoria, an Empire under the Sun" is an order of magnitude more complex, and its equivalent of rules (its game engine) even more susceptible to error and abuse. No player group has come even close to adequately addressing its rule problems before the game. Time and again, when the issue is tripped over (such as shore bombardments rendering a capital city defenceless), the players divide into two camps: the "let's solve the problem now that we realize it" camp and the "rule changes must not be made in-game" camp. The argument between the two grows furious, and the group often splits up.

- The "rule changes must not be made in-game" camp is mistaken in the context of a complex, legally vague, highly abusable game such as Victoria. They either expect the impossible - rules should be perfectly clarified beforehand (as though Vikky were another Checkers), or the absurd - players should attack abusers in-game (as though arm-wrestling determined justice). The fact that this group's loudest members not infrequently profit from the abuse, and often control the nations best positioned to arm-wrestle in-game is a fact well-noted and often remarked upon.


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"No player should adjust his play style to suit others"

- We all quite naturally want good reasons given before we surrender any portion of our freedom of action. We also, however, recognize that the actions and play styles of others deeply affect us, that we can neither be autonomous - alone in the game, with all the other players acting like the AI - nor be in perfect control, capable of forcing all other players to play in ways that perfectly satisfy us. In order to preserve our freedom, we must also preserve that of others. To get some of what we want, we must accept that others will get some of what they want.

- But, believe it or not, not every player really believes in mutual accommodation. Some of those who defend their own play style most vehemently are the very ones who are most willing to make rules, issue public announcements, and play in-game in ways that limit and constrain other players' play styles. These sorts of people desire perfect freedom for themselves, and perfect control over others. Needless to say, this attitude drives off other players very quickly indeed.

- If we want to play SP, a "My freedom trumps yours" attitude works great. The AI is always agreeable, has no pride or self-worth, claims no rights, and never argues. In MP, however, play styles and attitudes must be mutually compromised.


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"A binding system of group decision-making is not necessary"

"Raise your hand if you like accepting annoying decisions!" No takers? "Okay, raise your hand if you want other players to accept your views!" A little more appealing, eh? And this little contrasts brings us to group decision-making, the ways in which gaming groups harmonize divergent views to keep the game going.

- The easiest system is that of "enlightened monarchy". A well-respected player gets support for his right to set up, modify, and enforce rules, and all other players accept the occasional mistake and annoyance as long as the "rule-maker" is scrupulously unbiased and usually correct. Sometimes, the "rule-maker" is set up by popular vote and can be removed if any other player gets more support; this adds accountability. Not infrequently, the "rule-maker" can expel players after a shorter or longer warning process.

- Pure democracy is also popular, but is not so simple. Whereas a "king" can flexibly issue edits covering particular problems of governance or of group concord (including just tossing out particularly annoying people), a democracy has to first set up a simple set of "rules-covering-rulemaking" - a constitution - and then hold votes on all rule-making allowed by the constitution. Problems - major problems - arise if the constitution doesn't cover a point players feel strongly about. Nevertheless, democracy is the best way to handle a group full of people who don't know each other, or who agree on no natural leader, as - suitably warned beforehand - most players will accept an annoying decision as long as 1) the majority supported it and 2) that can be reversed at any time if he can get a majority to oppose it (this second point is important).

- Most Vikky MP groups, unfortunately, use neither accountable monarchy or rule-governed democracy. Frequently, one or two players start up a group, and attempt to play "king" without full consultation with all players and without accountability, or a false-democracy is operated with no requirement for any player to accept any majority decision, or chance to reverse it later. When a tough, important matter is argued, this lack of pre-established legitimacy often causes groups to fall apart.


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Lessons I should have learned previously:

- Beware of those who ever say that rules must not be changed in-game. This is possibly the number-one guarantee that your gameplay experience with this person will not be a happy one.

- Beware of players who simultaneously demand that others respect their way of playing and who attempt to regulate/control the gameplay of others. Such a person sees you as an AI, not a fellow human.

- Beware of players who play "king" without having gotten all players to accept them, or who, as "king", play aggressively and at the limits of the rules in-game, or who make sweetheart deals with anyone before the game begins, or who is not prepared to modify their power and even step down if any other players consider them a public nuisance.

- Beware of democracies that either have no constitutions, or that consider all decisions, once made, as in any way fixed and final. Such systems treat new players very badly.
 
What's wrong with agreeing on rules before a game starts and following them throughout? Changing them mid-game because someone realized they're not happy simply hurts those who have played along thus far.

Example: UK raises a ton of native divisions. Germany realizes they won't beat them on land, raises a ruckus, wants native divisions banned.

Example: Russia trades its way to steel steamers. UK realizes it's about to lose naval supremacy, tries to limit tech trading.

Example: OE releases Montenegro, gives it land along Austrian border. Austria realizes it can't attack OE, but OE can attack it anytime. Austria raises a ruckus.

Example: USA buys India from an AI UK. France gets hammered by the new manpower, wants trading for land with AI banned and the land returned.

In all the above examples, players knew the rules beforehand; some adapted and used them as best they could, others bellyached about it. Those who complained did, however, *agree to the rules beforehand*. What they should have done was take notes and bring it up in the next game instead of trying to change what they agreed to as soon as it ceased to suit them.

If you agree to a rule set, you should stick by it or only change if *everyone* agrees; if there's as much as a single voice of dissent you're automatically in the wrong. Making a habit of changing game rules mid-game simply discourages players from trying new things and thinking out of the box. It's silly.
 
If rules were made before the game started and then inconsistencies arise a system needs to be in place to deal with it. I too have played a lot of boardgames and find that many of them lack the polishing to be entierly devoid of these inconsistencies.

A case in point is this Sunday when our gaming group played a session of CIv the Boardgame, published by Eagle Games. The game rules state that in order to build a city you must first move a settler onto the province of the board. The game rules also state that settlers cannot fight eachother or other units. What happens if two settlers owned by different players share a province, will the other settler be destroyed when a city is built? Is it impossible to build a city? The rules lacked an answer and so we had to make one up, in-game. Victoria is indeed an order of magnitude more complex than practically all boardgames, as is common with strategy computergames. Inconsistencies such as these will arise and then the players need to be able to handle it or the group will indeed fall apart.

If you have a pet peeve with the rules in SP then you should never assume that the other players handle it the way you're used to, always bring such issues up in advance.
 
well this post paints an interesting image of the people you were playing against... and since not only i was one of those people that disagreed with you, that also someone with 5 minutes to spare can find that out in the forums, i will reply and try give some more understanding to the situation.

there were a few occasions during and inbetween game sessions that rules were suggested, and i draw 3 specific examples.

first, a rule that no human-human tech trades were allowed. this was agreed and enforced.

second, a specific partition of africa; initially this was to allot the whole of africa to specific people, then this was reduced to reserving large areas for 2 players (not all players.) This was accepted, because it became clearly apparent that the game would not start until it was.

third, that 3 nations should be excluded from action, usa + spain from all players, austria from all but italy (this rule came 24 hours after russia sent a 'warning' to ai austria about its oppression of the ukrainians)

now, while i am not saying that the people who suggested these rules were acting for their own gain, if we look at each rule and see who gains and looses from each, a pattern appears.

rule 1. Gainers: none. Loosers: russia (tho not greatly. everyone knows russia is poor with research)

rule 2. Gainers: Uk, France (both in a big way). Loosers: Russia. (russia was excluded from africa)

rule 3. Gainers: France, Italy (france gets a 100% secure border, italy gets whatever it wants from austria). Loosers: Germany, Russia.

While i do not intend to insult the people concerned, there is a clear pattern in these rules. As to saying that the people concerned would not allow the game rules to be changed... well thats not true, since 2 of the 3 rules were enacted.

my opinion about rules in general?
rules that affect players GAME STYLE MUST be fixed at the game start and NOT changed thereafter.
rules that are because of game exploits or system bugs should be made at the beginning and changed/added to as necessary.

this doesnt mean that no rules can be changed/added, but when its clear that a proposed rule should be done in diplomacy, then its going to get a bad reaction. I am completely open to changing rules for things that cause problems, but changing rules because i feel threatened by what a player has in the game is ridiculous.
agreed you may take this as insult, but if the list above were to be changed, so that every russia actually said france, how would you think?
 
The first thing I did after reading your well thought-out response was to investigate the unhappy fate of the Texans (in your links). Funny AAR, although sad... Anyway, back to the subject at hand.


Lamprey said:
What's wrong with agreeing on rules before a game starts and following them throughout? Changing them mid-game because someone realized they're not happy simply hurts those who have played along thus far.

Example: UK raises a ton of native divisions. Germany realizes they won't beat them on land, raises a ruckus, wants native divisions banned.

Example: Russia trades its way to steel steamers. UK realizes it's about to lose naval supremacy, tries to limit tech trading.

Example: OE releases Montenegro, gives it land along Austrian border. Austria realizes it can't attack OE, but OE can attack it anytime. Austria raises a ruckus.

Example: USA buys India from an AI UK. France gets hammered by the new manpower, wants trading for land with AI banned and the land returned.

In all the above examples, players knew the rules beforehand; some adapted and used them as best they could, others bellyached about it. Those who complained did, however, *agree to the rules beforehand*. What they should have done was take notes and bring it up in the next game instead of trying to change what they agreed to as soon as it ceased to suit them.

If you agree to a rule set, you should stick by it or only change if *everyone* agrees; if there's as much as a single voice of dissent you're automatically in the wrong. Making a habit of changing game rules mid-game simply discourages players from trying new things and thinking out of the box. It's silly.

In all of your examples, there is no flagrant abuse (in my opinion). So, imho, if most players do want to make the change, definately not to make it retroactive, or (in the UK's case in example #1) even right in the middle of a war. The UK gets to win the war and reap the benefit, Russia keeps its Steel Steamers, OE's defensive moves stand, and the USA keeps India. Players who get "creative" get benefits, they just can't expect permanent ones. It is the permanency that troubles me.

In all of the examples given, players should be allowed to propose and vote on binding limits to future actions of that type in that game. Proposing that all changes wait until next game sidesteps a few issues:
1) For most groups of players, the current game is the only one they will play together. If they don't get it right now, they never will.
2) Most groups do not actually all get together and discuss the rules before play begins - another point of difference to the tabletop situation. Existing players want to jump in and play, new players join up. Everyone should be able to sign up, knowing that they can contribute to the house rules when they're ready, and that they don't have to just passively "take it or leave it".
3) No group, and no player, can reasonably be expected to understand the true nature of a rule or of something allowed by the game engine until they've seen the effects. Except, perhaps, for the chap planning the move...
4) While none of the situations quoted involved obvious abuse of the game engine (at least in my opinion), all start-of-game "house rules" that have ever come under my observation fail to address some or even all of the biggest abuses allowed by the Vikky game engine. Everyone has their own list of such; mine is headed by shore bombardments, fiddling troop ethnicities to avoid combat losses, importing hordes of Chinese, and multiplying war reparations through timely gifts (not necessarily in that order of importance). Again, anyone you talk to will add stuff to this list. In such cases - and I know it is hard to draw the line save through the consensus-of-all-but-one - advantages gained through use of the abuse ought to be surrendered.


If taken literally, the argument for rule fixity would require all players to put up with any abuse not specifically covered at game start, for the entire game, however great the abuse or aggressive the use of it, whether or not they were even around when the rules were being fomulated or had any opportunity to contribute their foreknowledge of the problem. People's attitudes vary widely, and it's hard to make blanket statements, but I feel a blanket statement is justified here: Nobody with a life and a sense of self-worth would put up with this in an optional setting.
 
Coco said:
my opinion about rules in general?
rules that affect players GAME STYLE MUST be fixed at the game start and NOT changed thereafter.
rules that are because of game exploits or system bugs should be made at the beginning and changed/added to as necessary.

this doesnt mean that no rules can be changed/added, but when its clear that a proposed rule should be done in diplomacy, then its going to get a bad reaction. I am completely open to changing rules for things that cause problems, but changing rules because i feel threatened by what a player has in the game is ridiculous.
Virtually all rules can be claimed as having an affect on a player's game style, and virtually all gameplay styles modify or even control the play styles of others. This is just a re-phrase of the basic arguments for fixed rules and for a refusal to mutually accomodate other players in MP.
 
LM, you make 2 good points: the same people are not likely to play together again; and sometimes, playing within the rules can turn into abuse of the rules.

The same people aren't likely to play together, true (though the MP community in Vicky is small enough so that one is likely to see the same faces often). However, they definitely can learn and bring it up the next time they play MP I think, same people or not.

Also, people can abuse the rules; they often will. Instances of this (such as trading land to China to trade back for it later with the 5 million Chinese that came over) definitely should be contained - this responsibility falls to the host of the game.

You're right, no rule should be etched in stone; but at the same time no game should be played by people who start it expecting to change the rules as they go along. Rules ought to be determined in advance and any serious abuses talked over, then decided on by whoever runs the game. Vicky MP shouldn't be a democracy as that often leads to chaos; they should be dictatorships, constitutional monarchies at worst. This limits the amount of changes made and constrains player capriciousness.

As for people who join mid-game not having any say in rule making... obviously. They should've gotten in on the ground floor. Someone joining later knows the rules beforehand, they're usually posted on the forums, meaning they can't claim they didn't know what they were getting into. The act of joining implies consent since it's entirely voluntary.