Copts in Egypt

[AndrejK]

Hello paradoxians.
Again, I d like to ask you to add "coptic" religion in the following provinces:

1. Alexandria
2. Minya
   
3. Asyut
4. Qasr Ibrim

Qasr Ibrim :
During Roman times the town was one of the last bastions of paganism, its six temples converting to Christianity two centuries later than the rest of Egypt. It then became one of the main Christian centers in Lower Nubia. Christianity first came to Qasr Ibrim in the 6th century, but had little effect. It wasn't until the city became part of the kingdom of Makuria, in the early 8th century, that Qasr Ibrim became a center for Christianity. This continued even through the fifteenth century when the Makurian kingdom became Islamic.[4] The city held out against Islam until the 16th century, when a unit of Bosnian soldiers, part of the Ottoman army, occupied the site. The mercenaries stayed on and eventually married into the local Nubian community, using part of the cathedral as a mosque.

Two churches remain on the site. The Taharqa Church was most likely built between 542-580 AD, this would make it one of Nubia's earliest churches. Like many of the first churches in Nubia, it would have been constructed within the walls of the already present temples.[4] Qasr Ibrim's cathedral was built later, though the date of construction in unclear. Archaeologists currently believe it was constructed in the first half of the eighth century.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qasr_Ibrim

Minya is dubbed by the locals "Bride of Upper Egypt", in reference to its strategic location in Middle Egypt as a vital link between the north and the south of Egypt. Minya has one of the highest concentration of Christian Coptic population in Egypt (approximately 50% of total population).[1]

Asyut is a city with a large Coptic population even today, and Alexnadria should be included for historical reasons.

Except for historical reasons, other, such as gameplay, flavour and logic should also be considered.

At first the Mamluks seem to have quite an easy time there and are a dangerous foe to the Ottomans. Having them to deal with domestic problems was certainly more historically accurate.
Secondly, having the "Coptic" religion with no provinces in Egypt is just .... weird.
Therefore I demand giving changing the religion of these 4 provinces

 

[AndrejK]

If there are, say three provinces where a certain demographic makes at least one third of the population, is it accurate enough to just asign one of these provinces to this demographic (preferably the one where tge minority proportion is the highest ) to this demographic.
I mean if we have three provinces where Copts make up at least 33%of the pop, just make the religion of the province where their percentage is the highest Coptic and keep Sunni the rest.
Is it the most accurate method? No
Is it more accurate than not representing minority demographics at all ? Yes.

 

[AndrejK]

Coptic influence was minimal at best, though, until the 19th century. I understand that you want Copts to be more represented in EU4, but to represent them much more than they are currently would be inaccurate, and using "but other groups are over-represented in [province]" is a bad argument. Paradox has stated that, while in the past they had such policy as giving smaller cultures and states more territory and influence than they had in history, this is no longer the case. To remove Theodoro and Zoroastrian Yazd would make a lot of people angry, so they won't do that, but they're not going to add much more along those lines. I'm personally against Yazd being Zoroastrian - the Zoroastrian influence there existed, but was not quite as notable as in Baku, which remained effectively if not nominally (as Baku was in those times not of especial importance) in control of that area until the 19th century.

When I saw that the coming DLC would update Egypt, I too considered the situation of the Copts, and was preparing to make a post of my own in support of more Coptic provinces in Egypt. However, before I dove in I made sure to investigate some scholarly research, two chief pieces of which I've linked below.

While the Copts were certainly an active minority group, this was mostly within their own community; in addition, in no place did the Copts have a considerable amount of influence or even self-reliance, and were mostly rural. Any particular resistance to Mamluk rule was broken in the 14th century, and afterwards the Coptic community primarily focused on keeping their faith alive, rather than agitating against the conditions in which they lived. Despite the relative size of their population, the Copts were ultimately not much more influential than the Armenians or Jews in this period, if at all. As much as I would like to see more representation for Copts, there's nothing of relevance to EU4 that could reasonably justify them having a province of their own.

Regular existing Muslim events already act as a catch-all for minorities within the current system; perhaps you could argue for a handful of events related to the Copts - and if you wrote them and explained the background to them, it wouldn't surprise me if they were implemented - but not a province.

Here are the scholarly sources I read before making my argument:
http://mamluk.uchicago.edu/MSR_X-2_2006-OSullivan.pdf
https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=osu1068350208&disposition=inline

If you want to make a strong case for better representation of certain Christian groups in Muslim-ruled territories, I'd recommend making a post about the Armenians. Their provinces even in the updated map don't represent the actual prevalence of Armenians in eastern Anatolia despite the contrary being fairly well-known today.

I am particularly disappointed by the lack of a Kozan province in the Cilician highlands.. the area retained a heavy Armenian majority until the genocide

 

[AndrejK]

Religion and culture in provinces have never been there to represent the majority. It has ALWAYS been to represent influence, or the major culture in the most important city. This is why provinces like Yazd are primarily Zoroastrian, and the "Turkish" Aegean sea coast is Turkish, or Theodoro is "Gothic" despite being a mishmash of cultures. Manchus (and the other Evenki/Tungus people Manchus represent) are Tengri and not whatever their religion is closer to. There are other examples.

This why Alexandria should be Coptic to many people. Because of their influence within the city and it's importance to the religion and region to be honest. Many could be part of this minority as well and feel under represented, while areas that have even less of a reason to be what they are are that for little to no reason other than "it cool and important minority" than when they use the same argument, they are shut down completely with hypocritical logic.

So why was the religion of Sidon changed then?

This argumentation is alibist at best, like changing rules during the contract. As people pointed out, Baku, if it had a Zoroastrian plurality should have been also Zoroastrian, as well as maybe some Mazandaran regions.

I don't get this... its like you didn't apply on time, your case will be ignored. Btw its a big punch in the face of the 10m Copts in Egypt living today, fighting for survival.

I may be wrong but I sense had there been a Coptic country in Egypt today, the Copts would have been represented in EU 4.
I hope that being located in Sweden, the developers are not under pressure from some, let's say, non-indigenous elements of the Swedish society

 

[Trin Tragula]

I will ask you once to refrain from trolling this thread with weird personal insinuations and try to stick to the facts @AndrejK . Trolling by attacking posters instead of their arguments will not convince anyone and might quickly earn you infractions from the moderation team.

For us to change the culture and religion of a province requires good references. As far as I can see there’s nobody in this thread actually arguing that Copts where a majority in any of our Egyptian provinces.
This means to me that the currently very generous (and slightly fantastic) events for a Coptic liberation of Egypt is still more than enough.

Nobody is saying there aren’t any Copts in Egypt, just that as far as the game is concerned they should not be a province majority in the provinces of the region.

 

[AndrejK]

According to Hulsman, in Ottoman times there was a first modern census in Egypt, between the years 1570 and 1590, with Christians making approximately one tenth (10%) of Egypt´s population. In Napoleon´s time, Egypt had roughly 2.5 million population, according to jizya revenues, the Christian and Jewish elements together accounted for 215 000 people, which is roughly 8,6 %.
Any Copts living in the Delta and Lower Egypt have arrived there during the 19th and 20th centuries, and before Muhammad Ali, no Copts lived neither in the Delta nor around the Suez canal, all of them came from Upper Egypt.

Arabisation proceeded mainly during the Crusader period, and the Coptic language retreated to Upper Egypt, until it became a purely liturgical language
Drastic measures against Copts were taken in the beginning of the 14 th century, under the rule of Salar Baibars. Christians and Jews alike had to be identified with blue or yellow turban, werent allowed to ride horses, and many churches were demolished. The celebration of the Martyrs feast, connected to wine drinking was prohibitted, and such measures led to mass conversions to islam.

A chart, in Hulsmans publication, shows the proportion of Copts throughout the time.

Regarding territorrial distribution, Hulsman made a reference to Jenkins on p. 11 where he refers to local Christian elites remaining firmly in control of remoter areas of Upper Egypt and northern Iraq. Hulsman speaks of a traditionally higher proportion of Copts in the modern governorates of Minya, Asyut , Sohag and Qena , which accounted for more than half of 1960 Coptic population in Egypt (we need to keep in mind that the population in the Delta and around Suez also came from these areas, as well as much of the urban populations in Cairo or Alexandria, although here some local indigenous presence remained s well ).

Copts remained a mojority until the 10 th century, at least according to Ibrahim
Sources:

• HULSMAN C., 2012 Discrepancies Between Coptic Statistics in the Egyptian Census and Estimates Provided by the Coptic Orthodox Church , 2012, Káhira, Arab-West Report, 47p.
• IBRAHIM S.E. 1996 The Copts of Egypt, 1996, Ibn Khaldoun Center for Development Studies/ Minority Rights Group International ,31 s. ISBN: 1 897693 26
• VESELÝ R., 2009 Egypt ve Středovĕku in: Dějiny Egypta, 2009, Praha, Nakladatelství Lidové Noviny , s. 161-382 , ISBN: 978-80-7106-971-3 (Czech history of Egypt)
  
  
  
  My understanding of Egypts minorities: areas in the colour of a religious group have a religious minority. areas with a (+, *, t) have considerable Coptic, Jewish and Orthodox populations

 

[petertju]

According to Hulsman, in Ottoman times there was a first modern census in Egypt, between the years 1570 and 1590, with Christians making approximately one tenth (10%) of Egypt´s population. In Napoleon´s time, Egypt had roughly 2.5 million population, according to jizya revenues, the Christian and Jewish elements together accounted for 215 000 people, which is roughly 8,6 %.
Any Copts living in the Delta and Lower Egypt have arrived there during the 19th and 20th centuries, and before Muhammad Ali, no Copts lived neither in the Delta nor around the Suez canal, all of them came from Upper Egypt.

Arabisation proceeded mainly during the Crusader period, and the Coptic language retreated to Upper Egypt, until it became a purely liturgical language
Drastic measures against Copts were taken in the beginning of the 14 th century, under the rule of Salar Baibars. Christians and Jews alike had to be identified with blue or yellow turban, werent allowed to ride horses, and many churches were demolished. The celebration of the Martyrs feast, connected to wine drinking was prohibitted, and such measures led to mass conversions to islam.

A chart, in Hulsmans publication, shows the proportion of Copts throughout the time.

View attachment 305372

Regarding territorrial distribution, Hulsman made a reference to Jenkins on p. 11 where he refers to local Christian elites remaining firmly in control of remoter areas of Upper Egypt and northern Iraq. Hulsman speaks of a traditionally higher proportion of Copts in the modern governorates of Minya, Asyut , Sohag and Qena , which accounted for more than half of 1960 Coptic population in Egypt (we need to keep in mind that the population in the Delta and around Suez also came from these areas, as well as much of the urban populations in Cairo or Alexandria, although here some local indigenous presence remained s well ).

Copts remained a mojority until the 10 th century, at least according to Ibrahim
Sources:

• HULSMAN C., 2012 Discrepancies Between Coptic Statistics in the Egyptian Census and Estimates Provided by the Coptic Orthodox Church , 2012, Káhira, Arab-West Report, 47p.
• IBRAHIM S.E. 1996 The Copts of Egypt, 1996, Ibn Khaldoun Center for Development Studies/ Minority Rights Group International ,31 s. ISBN: 1 897693 26
• VESELÝ R., 2009 Egypt ve Středovĕku in: Dějiny Egypta, 2009, Praha, Nakladatelství Lidové Noviny , s. 161-382 , ISBN: 978-80-7106-971-3 (Czech history of Egypt)
  
  View attachment 305383My understanding of Egypts minorities: areas in the colour of a religious group have a religious minority. areas with a (+, *, t) have considerable Coptic, Jewish and Orthodox populations

So you have actually proven with the sources you have that in the whole game period of EU4, the copts where 10 percent of the population, thus giving a good reason for not having a coptic province. How do you think this proves that their should be a coptic province?

 

[AndrejK]

So you have actually proven with the sources you have that in the whole game period of EU4, the copts where 10 percent of the population, thus giving a good reason for not having a coptic province. How do you think this proves that their should be a coptic province?

Do the four provinces coloured in pink account for more than 10% of the Egyptian population? Was the proportion in each of them over 25%? If so , I think we can safely make one of them Coptic

 

[AirikrStrife]

There is representation of copts in Egypt, through the "faithful liberation" events. Your thread so far can be used to justify bringing back the old flavor events "Copts coming out of hiding" for upper egypt (I don't know why this was removed in the first place). As of now only Cairo and Sinai I think get's events for missionary strenght. This could be expanded to other relevant areas of Egypt, and also the Assyria area and Cilicia.

As off now, unless other sources presenting concrete proof, not circumstantial evidence and hopeful reasoning, the topic of adding coptic religion provinces in Egypt should be considered dead.

Any other work regarding flavor for Copts would be in form of events, missions, etc

particularly creating a list of Dynamic names for provicnes in the middle east would be a nice touch to the region

 

[Vigilum]

So why was the religion of Sidon changed then?

This argumentation is alibist at best, like changing rules during the contract. As people pointed out, Baku, if it had a Zoroastrian plurality should have been also Zoroastrian, as well as maybe some Mazandaran regions.

I don't get this... its like you didn't apply on time, your case will be ignored. Btw its a big punch in the face of the 10m Copts in Egypt living today, fighting for survival.

I may be wrong but I sense had there been a Coptic country in Egypt today, the Copts would have been represented in EU 4.
I hope that being located in Sweden, the developers are not under pressure from some, let's say, non-indigenous elements of the Swedish society

I wasn't arguing against you. I was, if anything, agreeing with you. I was explaining why people want certain provinces to be Coptic because it seems the only argument people have AGAINST it is "but they weren't the majority!!!", and I was refuting that argument, which was to your favor.

This was an argument favoring you, and giving a good reason to make the religion in that province coptic. I might be mistaken by how you worded it, but it seemed by saying this is "alibist" you're disagreeing with something that supports your point.

 

[AndrejK]

I wasn't arguing against you. I was, if anything, agreeing with you. I was explaining why people want certain provinces to be Coptic because it seems the only argument people have AGAINST it is "but they weren't the majority!!!", and I was refuting that argument, which was to your favor.

This was an argument favoring you, and giving a good reason to make the religion in that province coptic. I might be mistaken by how you worded it, but it seemed by saying this is "alibist" you're disagreeing with something that supports your point.

I wasnt attacking you by response, but the principles supposedly favoured by the devs, if you understood it aimed against you, my fault of not making myself clear enough

 

[General Moelem]

Until this day the copts make up the majority in some parts of minya governorate and in one of cairo districts shubra the copts are the majority, then look how it was 600 years ago