• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Now that I finished the 0.81 upgrade for the naval side of things, I am going to be focusing more of my time on the nuclear tree and getting the balance of things correct. I will be a little harder to get in touch with for the next three weeks (out to sea), but that will also give me a little more time to read reference material (Rhodes - Building the Atomic Bomb) and figure out the timing of things. MDow
 
Engineer said:
... I think one approach to this is to pull the pre-1/1/36 technologies into the 8100 tier. Then 8000 and 8100 go to the Tier 1 powers.

Just wanted to make sure that people would understand that this will make for very large 8000 and 8100 levels of research. That will probably look pretty intimidating to the uninitated, but probably no worse than any of the other trees. MDow
 
8000/8100/8200

I've got draft text, historical dates, and dependencies done for 8000 and 8100 with 8200 nearly half complete. Since all of this is physics research I would vote for 1 IC cost in directed research (with a higher cost for the Gold Techs) so the only question is the proper duration. I can send you the full version via PM and will post an abridged version through the end of 8200 here in the forum no later than next Monday.
 
8000/8100/8200

That part is done and forwarded to Matedow. Unfortunately, I don't have image posting privileges, so the graphical tree for this section isn't generally available.

A few comments are appropriate:

Table Top to Big Science: In the 8200 series there is a big change where the initial basic theoretical techs can be confirmed with table top apparatus so you have cheap IC costs and then need 12 MeV cyclotrons to prepare the samples for Neptunium discovery. Things aren't at 40 IC yet, but you start to see the requirement for significant investment in large scale scientific laboratories as capital-intensive institutions.

The Rad Lab - a USA-only tech? The UC-Berkeley Radiation Laboratory under Lawrence was one of the first of these big science labs. However, Lawrence was genius at mooching state funds, foundation money, and industrial donations in addition to the federal funding that came his way. Also, Lawrence operated a very open shop that aggressively recruited talent. I think this behaviour is probably uniquely open to the USA with its relatively egalitarian social structure and rich field of non-federal resource pools to tap. What I'm thinking about is a 2 IC for 360 days to create the Rad Lab while 4 IC for 600 days would be required for other powers to build up their initial big science capability.

War Ripples: In January, 1939 Phil Abelson at Berkeley was performing uranium bombardment experiments. It appears almost certain that he would have independently discovered fission had not the news from Europe cut short his experiments. Given the pre-war open science regime in the USA, this provides a back-up discovery of fission event if the Europeans are embroiled in war.
 
Engineer said:
The Rad Lab - a USA-only tech? The UC-Berkeley Radiation Laboratory under Lawrence was one of the first of these big science labs. However, Lawrence was genius at mooching state funds, foundation money, and industrial donations in addition to the federal funding that came his way. Also, Lawrence operated a very open shop that aggressively recruited talent. I think this behaviour is probably uniquely open to the USA with its relatively egalitarian social structure and rich field of non-federal resource pools to tap. What I'm thinking about is a 2 IC for 360 days to create the Rad Lab while 4 IC for 600 days would be required for other powers to build up their initial big science capability.

You are quite accurate in your appraisal of Dr. Lawrence. However, given the abstraction of the economy in HOI, I would separate state, industrial, and governemnt funds. It all comes from the same pot: national economic pool or IC. So, the total cost of the Rad Lab needs to be fronted for the USA just as much as for anyone else.

Engineer said:
War Ripples: In January, 1939 Phil Abelson at Berkeley was performing uranium bombardment experiments. It appears almost certain that he would have independently discovered fission had not the news from Europe cut short his experiments. Given the pre-war open science regime in the USA, this provides a back-up discovery of fission event if the Europeans are embroiled in war.

Great little tid-bit. This is exactly the type of data we need for the ahistorical events to drive this forward. Great!
 
Rad-Lab Tech:

PaxMondo:
... separate state, industrial, and governemnt funds. It all comes from the same pot: national economic pool or IC.

My point is that Lawrence, especially by emphasizing the medical side of his research, was able to poach resources from the Consumer Goods side of the fence. This is an important consideration given that this tech historically was being done in the 1937/1938 time span so Abelson could do his abortive fission research at the beginning of 1939.

The other point is historical fidelity for the flavor effects that country specific tech's have. Going back to Tocqueville you have the recognition of the rich civil society in the USA. Looking at the HOI tech-tree's, I don't see a plausible way to leverage this into the typical military technologies. Lawrence's work is a place where that civil society network was leveraged in a way that gave the USA a tangible advantage in physics research at that point in time.

I know that country specific technologies can be controversial so it's not a "do-or-die" issue in the tech tree. But it is a place where the USA can pick up a few months advantage in the nuke race.

Maybe the more important realization that I've come to through my research is that the shift from table-top to Big Science is the place where it becomes implausible for events to dispense the technology to the Tier 1 powers. Players will need to start investing if they want nukes.
:)
 
Engineer said:
My point is that Lawrence, especially by emphasizing the medical side of his research, was able to poach resources from the Consumer Goods side of the fence. This is an important consideration given that this tech historically was being done in the 1937/1938 time span so Abelson could do his abortive fission research at the beginning of 1939.

Mmmm, not sure I'm convinced, but it is not a big point. Below is far more relevant.

Engineer said:
The other point is historical fidelity for the flavor effects that country specific tech's have. Going back to Tocqueville you have the recognition of the rich civil society in the USA. Looking at the HOI tech-tree's, I don't see a plausible way to leverage this into the typical military technologies. Lawrence's work is a place where that civil society network was leveraged in a way that gave the USA a tangible advantage in physics research at that point in time.

Ok....

Engineer said:
I know that country specific technologies can be controversial so it's not a "do-or-die" issue in the tech tree. But it is a place where the USA can pick up a few months advantage in the nuke race. :)

Ok ...

Engineer said:
Maybe the more important realization that I've come to through my research is that the shift from table-top to Big Science is the place where it becomes implausible for events to dispense the technology to the Tier 1 powers. Players will need to start investing if they want nukes.
:)

Absolutely agreed. And i think this dwarfs out most fo the above, which is why i do not have that strong of feelings about the first few parts here.

Once the lab scale devices need to be scaled up, the investment has to go right through the roof, and it should by necessity exclude just about everyone. This is certainly where GER stops, and for that reason: investment.

Now to fund this investment in the US, I would suggest that if the USA player decides to act upon Einstein's letter with investment, that it cause the W/E to jump up enough to cover the investement, or most of it. The way teh US is now, even they do not have the IC to let them invest due to the W/E. Arguement could be that when you decide to pursue this, you are putting hte USA on a path to war ...

problem will be keeping that research going and not dumping it for something else .... thoguhts?
 
PaxMondo said:
Once the lab scale devices need to be scaled up, the investment has to go right through the roof, and it should by necessity exclude just about everyone. This is certainly where GER stops, and for that reason: investment.

Now to fund this investment in the US, I would suggest that if the USA player decides to act upon Einstein's letter with investment, that it cause the W/E to jump up enough to cover the investement, or most of it. The way teh US is now, even they do not have the IC to let them invest due to the W/E. Arguement could be that when you decide to pursue this, you are putting hte USA on a path to war ...

problem will be keeping that research going and not dumping it for something else .... thoguhts?

NOOOOO! This introduces the problem of early US War Entry. Also, the AI will use 1/2 the IC to build units. Without Pearl Harbor, I doubt the US would have entered the war in 1942.

Also, I wrote the Einstein Letter Event as well as the Uranium Committee events. Real (ie costly) US Government investment in A-Bombs did not start until Dec. 1941--this start was planned before Pearl Harbor.
 
Paxmondo:
I would suggest that if the USA player decides to act upon Einstein's letter with investment, that it cause the W/E to jump up enough to cover the investement, or most of it.

Kevin is right about this. The Einstein letter was in August of 1939. The Manhattan Project was started on 6 December 1941. There is a two+ year gap in there. What happened in the physics world was the USA continued open science and published the results on finding the first transuranic elements (Neptunium and Plutonium). Given the other techs, I would have to think that the Uranium Oxide production, U238 refining, U235 isolation, nuclear pile theory, and graphite production were historically complete near the end of 1941 so that the Pile construction and controlled chain reaction can get completed in 1942. I'm just starting the 8300/8400 series but I can see where at least the basic pile wouldn't depend on the transuranics so there is room for some acceleration in the program there. I'm don't think that the war-entry should jump that much, however. The point in acting on the letter wouldn't be to do all the conventional arms build up plus nukes but rather to make nuke research a part of the build up along with improved aircraft, the new Navy, and a larger ground army. The big build ups at Oak Ridge and Hanford in 1942 through 1944 are the 40 IC economy busters. These might be pulled in by six months to a year, but at the cost of subtracting many capital ships and/or bomber wings from the US OOB.

PaxMondo:
This is certainly where GER stops, and for that reason: investment.

This is where we have to be careful about how the tree is constructed. The Germans miscalculated the amount of material needed for a bomb and thought they needed tons of fissile material. They did have a plan for using heavy water as a moderator for a uranium pile and then use that as a breeder to get Plutonium-239. This way they could skip a lot of Uranium separation technology that the Manhattan project developed. (One of the reasons the Manhattan Project was so expensive was the redundancy built in to get to a bomb by multiple routes). But as we all saw in The Heros of Telemark, the allies managed to interdict the heavy water supply. I read some transcripts of Heisenberg's interrogation after the war, and they suggest that the pile was as far as Heisenberg thought they could get. The resources are a valid point, too, but some historians have suggested that the Nazi's really ended up with an either/or choice on V-weapons versus the bomb. Given their misunderstanding about the bomb size, they bet on missiles. But if they had bet their resources on nukes instead, they would have probably gotten a lot closer to nukes than the historical result.

I've been keeping a Gantt chart in my head for this tech tree but really need to spend some quality time with a simple project management package like MS-Project to put together a summary. Part of this is to make sure we steer between allowing unrealistically early introduction and making nukes impossible, as well as being able to keep the timeline historically on track.
 
Kevin Mc Carthy said:
NOOOOO! This introduces the problem of early US War Entry. Also, the AI will use 1/2 the IC to build units. Without Pearl Harbor, I doubt the US would have entered the war in 1942..

I think we follow Kevin's suggestion ... ;)


Kevin Mc Carthy said:
Also, I wrote the Einstein Letter Event as well as the Uranium Committee events. Real (ie costly) US Government investment in A-Bombs did not start until Dec. 1941--this start was planned before Pearl Harbor.

I think this was tied to Fermi's work ... his successes lead to support for the spending ... but until then ...
 
8300 draft

See below. Skip to the very bottom for comments.

Basic Nuclear Experimentation (8300) (6 IC, 180 days)

Supporting Nuclear Materials (8301) In order to move into larger scale experimentation on nuclear research, significant technical enhancements in supporting technologies was necessary. (4 IC, 180 days)

Micro-chemistry (8302) In order to isolate the initial U-235 samples it was necessary to develop advanced analytical techniques which would permit the separation of this isotope of Uranium from the vastly more prevalent U-238 isotope. Requires 8301 as a pre-requisite. (2 IC, 180 days)

Heavy Water Production (8303) Heavy water occurs when the water molecule has two deuterium atoms instead of a regular hydrogen atoms bonding to the oxygen atom. This molecule slows down neutron particles that pass through it. The world first heavy water plant was commissioned in 1934 in Norway. Requires 8301 as a pre-requisite. (10 IC, 360 days) (Note, this tech should belong to Norway’s initial OOB. If Britain, USSR, Sweden, or Russia conquers Norway the annexing or puppeting power automatically acquires the tech via event.

Purified Graphite Production (8304) Graphite was broadly used in industry for its conductive properties, but it was also found that it would moderate neutrons, creating interest in this material as an alternative to heavy water to serve as a structural material and moderator in a controlled a nuclear chain reaction. A key to using this in atomic applications was the purification to remove trace elements of boron and calcium from the matrix of graphite (carbon). Requires 8301 as a pre-requisite. (3 IC, 180 days)

Large Cyclotron Construction (8305) These machines were able to raise particles to higher and higher potentials in order to generate more energetic subatomic interactions. While still useful as experimental vehicles, the increasing precision and control of these machines also permitted accurate measurements of various sub-atomic interactions. Requires 8207 as a pre-requisite. (4 IC, 180 days)

Nuclear Piles (8306): In order to demonstrate a controlled chain reaction and make measurements in order to validate key parts of theory, it was necessary to fabricate a nuclear pile. There were two basic types of piles developed during the 1940s, the heavy water pile and the carbon moderated pile. Requires 8205 and 8207 as a pre-requisite. (4 IC, 180 days)

Nuclear Pile Theory (8307) This is the applied physics work to design a structure which would allow a controlled chain reaction. A radioactive material is used for fuel. It has to fit within a structure that can tolerate the heat and radiation released by the chain reaction. There also has to be control mechanisms which allow the chain reaction to start and be turned off. Requires 8306 as a pre-requisite. (1 IC, 90 days)

Heavy Water Pile Construction (8308) This pile uses U238 as a fuel. Heavy water is used as a moderator. The bombardment of the U238 by the slow neutrons moderated by the heavy water results in creation of Plutonium which can be chemically separated from the U238. This was the approach favored by Heisenberg and his team of researchers in Germany. Their design featured alternating layers of Uranium and Paraffin which were suspended in a heavy water tank. Requires 8009, 8303, 8307, 8312, and 8317 and Small Arms Manufacturing as pre-requisites. (6 IC, 120 days)

Graphite Pile Construction (8309) This approach was used by the Americans and Soviets in their research. It used uranium embedded in blocks of purified graphite with cadmium control rods which could be inserted or removed from the stack of material. The cadmium absorbed neutrons, damping the chain reaction. Requires 8009 8304, 8307, 8312, 8317 and Small Arms Manufacturing as pre-requisites (6 IC, 120 days)

Basic Uranium Metallurgy (8310) Uranium had been something of a novelty element prior to 1930s. Its salts were radioactive, but there were no major industrial applications for the metal. Belgium had mines in the Congo which produced the metal. (2 IC, 90 days)

Uranium Oxide Production (8311) Most uranium ores are oxides of uranium: U3O8, UO2, UO3. Concentrations of U308 vary from as much as 20% in some Canadian ores to only 0.5% in some Australian ores. The ore is mechanically ground up in ball mills and subjected to a variety of chemical processes that result in “Yellowcake”, pure U3O8. Requires 8009, 8310 as a pre-requisite. (2 IC, 90 days)

Uranium Purification (8312) The yellowcake,U3O8, is dissolved in nitric acid and then subjected to a series of chemical reactions which generate a tremendous amount of toxic chemical by-products. Pure uranium metal can be obtained by reducing uranium tetrafluoride with either calcium or magnesium. However, the pure uranium will contain a mixture of both U235 and U238. (2 IC, 90 days) Note: Much of the pre-war Uranium production took place in the Congo and this technology was resident in Belgium. Consequently 8310, 8311, and 8312 should be part of Belgium’s pre-war OOB. If Germany or the USSR takes control of Antwerp, then they will gain these technologies. Note, I am using a province control trigger since annexation or puppeting would require the physical conquest of provinces in equatorial Africa.

U235 Isolation (8313) Small quantities of U235 could be extracted from the mix of U235 and U238. This permitted experimental confirmation of the reaction of U235 atoms to slow neutrons which was necessary to show that relatively small, transportable quantities of U235 could be used in an atomic reaction. Requires 8310 and 8302 as pre-requisites. (Note that this is lab scale activity so only an understanding of the metallurgy in contrast to an industrial capability to manufacture tens of kilograms). (1 IC, 90 days)

Plutonium Isolation (8314) Once Plutonium had been created it was necessary to identify the chemical processes required to remove it from the Uranium metal in which is was embedded. Requires 8310 and 8210 as pre-requisites. (1 IC, 90 days)

Chain Reaction Calculations (8315) In order to calculate the amount of heat and radiation given off in a chain reaction, it was necessary to perform calculations on the size of the various atoms involved compared to the neutrons that would strike them. Furthermore, it was necessary to get some level of empirical confirmation since these numbers varied by up to four orders of magnitude (10,000 times) depending on the who did the calculations and the assumptions that they used. Requires Basic Computer as a pre-requisite (1 IC, 90 days)

Beryllium Cross Section Calculation (8316) The critical question for fission was the size of the nucleus compared to the atom. In the case of Beryllium, it was found that neutrons striking this atom would be reflected back out of the atom. This was historically completed in 1941. Requires 8315 as a pre-requisite (1 IC, 90 days)

U238 Cross Section Calculation (8317) The critical question for fission was the size of the nucleus compared to the atom. This would give an estimate for the chance that a neutron passing through the atom would strike the nucleus and create a reaction. The U238 was not as reactive as the U235 and so was identified as more suitable for a reactor fuel. This was completed by July, 1941. Requires 8315 as a pre-requisite (1 IC, 90 days)

U235 Cross Section Calculation (8318) The critical question for fission was the size of the nucleus compared to the atom. This would give an estimate for the chance that a neutron passing through the atom would strike the nucleus and create a reaction. The U235 was much more liable to split when struck by a fast neutron compared to the U238 and calculations suggested that as little as 1 kg might be suitable to create a bomb. The actual initial bombs used about 50 kg per weapon. This was completed in July, 1941 in the west and by December, 1941 in the USSR. Requires 8317 as a pre-requisite. (1 IC, 90 days)

Plutonium Cross Section Calculation (8319) The critical question for fission was the size of the nucleus compared to the atom. This would give an estimate for the chance that a neutron passing through the atom would strike the nucleus and create a reaction. Requires 8210 and 8315 as pre-requisites. (1 IC, 90 days)

Nuclear Weapons Theory (8320) Finally, all the pieces are available to make a reasonable estimate on how much fissionable material is necessary to make a how big of a bang. Though science fiction speculations had been afloat for years from H. G. Wells and others, and serious scientists had speculated about this possibility since fission measurements were made, the state of the art had now reached the point that it was clear an explosive device of unprecedented potency was possible, if the engineering problems could be solved. Requires 8319, 8318, and 8316 as pre-requisites. (1 IC, 90 days)

NOTES:
Note that this has 4 strings of technology: Supporting Nuclear Materials, Nuclear Piles, Uranium Metallurgy, and Chain Reaction Calculations.

The two big deliverables are a working nuclear pile (historically achieved in October 1942 by the USA) and a solid nuclear weapon theory (historically delivered in mid-1941 by the UK) Working off the historical events that fission is discovered and broadcast in early 1939, this tree requires about three years to get to the pile (including earlier 8200 work), and 2 1/2 years to get to the weapons theory.

This also starts to hook into the electronics and manufacturing tech trees.

There are spots to also get into the Norwegian heavy water and Belgian uranium for events and historical what-if's.

The IC costs start climbing, but are still not punitive. A heavy water facility at 10 IC for a year is the biggest hit.

Comments?
 
Last edited:
"OR" Pre-requisites

I'm starting on Mdow's 8500 series tech's now. However, I have a coding question.

We've separated the nuclear piles into a graphite pile string and a heavy water pile string. However, one of the first 8500 techs is "nuclear pile experimentation" tech. Logically, you need to have either the 8308 heavy water pile or a 8309 graphite pile as a pre-requisite. But I don't think you can code techs with that "or" logic.

If that's correct, then we need to have separate experimentation techs, one for graphite piles and the other for the heavy water pile. Am I all wet on this? (only with heavy water, of course!). :rofl:
 
Engineer said:
I'm starting on Mdow's 8500 series tech's now. However, I have a coding question.

If that's correct, then we need to have separate experimentation techs, one for graphite piles and the other for the heavy water pile. Am I all wet on this? (only with heavy water, of course!). :rofl:

I as far as I know, that is true. I am actually planning on having the two tech strings. It will get disabled by selecting one or the other. They should both activate a plutonium bomb. I am still trying to find out if you can have two techs activate the same weapon system. MDow
 
Engineer said:
I'm starting on Mdow's 8500 series tech's now. However, I have a coding question.

We've separated the nuclear piles into a graphite pile string and a heavy water pile string. However, one of the first 8500 techs is "nuclear pile experimentation" tech. Logically, you need to have either the 8308 heavy water pile or a 8309 graphite pile as a pre-requisite. But I don't think you can code techs with that "or" logic.

If that's correct, then we need to have separate experimentation techs, one for graphite piles and the other for the heavy water pile. Am I all wet on this? (only with heavy water, of course!). :rofl:

Do we need separate pile approaches? i know the historical basis, but in terms of game play what are the benefits? I'm not sure that i see one, and if so, i would suggest that we combine them into just nuke pile R&D. not as pretty, but HOI is not nuke history 101 ... ;)

i will retract this suggestion if someone says they can create an OR logic in the tech tree ....
 
Separate Piles

What do the separate tech strings bring to the table:
- A player choice - The graphite piles leads to the Uranium bomb and eventually the plutonium bomb with enormous calutrons and gaseus diffusion plants with the associated 40 IC technologies to build that nuke infrastructure. The heavy water pile offers a pretty clear short-cut to a plutonium bomb by leading to something like the Canadian CANDU reactors that produce Plutonium you can chemically extract from the Uranium and refine to weapons-grade.
- All sorts of plausible events and what-if's around the Norwegian heavy water plant.
- The German heavy water pile design that I've seen had no control mechanisms so the likely result of triggering the reaction would have been a Chernobyl style meltdown - perhaps an interesting opportunity for a dirty bomb event to hit Berlin.

The first reason clearly has the most merit. It gives a tangible benefit and serves as a trigger for the others.
 
Engineer said:
I'm starting on Mdow's 8500 series tech's now. However, I have a coding question.

We've separated the nuclear piles into a graphite pile string and a heavy water pile string. However, one of the first 8500 techs is "nuclear pile experimentation" tech. Logically, you need to have either the 8308 heavy water pile or a 8309 graphite pile as a pre-requisite. But I don't think you can code techs with that "or" logic.

If that's correct, then we need to have separate experimentation techs, one for graphite piles and the other for the heavy water pile. Am I all wet on this? (only with heavy water, of course!). :rofl:

the more detail the better,i suggest using both but lowering the ic cost so you have basically split the tech in two..
 
Engineer said:
What do the separate tech strings bring to the table:
- A player choice - The graphite piles leads to the Uranium bomb and eventually the plutonium bomb with enormous calutrons and gaseus diffusion plants with the associated 40 IC technologies to build that nuke infrastructure. The heavy water pile offers a pretty clear short-cut to a plutonium bomb by leading to something like the Canadian CANDU reactors that produce Plutonium you can chemically extract from the Uranium and refine to weapons-grade.
- All sorts of plausible events and what-if's around the Norwegian heavy water plant.
- The German heavy water pile design that I've seen had no control mechanisms so the likely result of triggering the reaction would have been a Chernobyl style meltdown - perhaps an interesting opportunity for a dirty bomb event to hit Berlin.

The first reason clearly has the most merit. It gives a tangible benefit and serves as a trigger for the others.

Yes, but historically, did they realize this beforehand or after their results. The latter i believe, so how do we handle this hindsight?
 
PaxMondo said:
Yes, but historically, did they realize this beforehand or after their results. The latter i believe, so how do we handle this hindsight?

You make some techs accessable by a 1 IC 8000 day tech awarded by event(s). This would introduce a "Y" split into the Tech tree with one path leading to one path vs. the other. More worlk to write but codable.
 
German Foresight/Hindsight

The Germans are a puzzle when it comes to their WW2 nuke program. During the 1940/41 time frame there is a feasibility question that countries have to address. Now that we have discovered fission and recognize the potential energy given off in chain reaction, how much stuff and what stuff do we need to make it go boom. Historically, the calculations showed everything from a few pounds to several tons of material. The German calculations were at the several tons figure so they concluded that bombs were not feasible and thank goodness that Heisenburg never closely studied his calculations in time to recognize the mistake.

The German scientists, in a safe house being interrogated in England after the war, were stunned by the news of Hiroshima and worked about 36 hours straight through to review their calculations and independently verify that the US bomb was possible. If they had done this in 1942 instead of 1945, then London or Moscow might have been nuked. But back in 1942, German authorities, presented with the choice of investing in nuclear weapons the size of houses or rockets, ended up spending their resources on rockets.

When Heisenburg won the post to head the German program in the early 1940s, he saw it as an opportunity to lead the best German particle physics research lab instead of a Manhattan Project with bombs as a deliverable. So my analysis of the German program was that this was less a conscious short-cut to a Plutonium bomb than a clever and technically elegant way to a reactor.

The trouble is that the surviving design of the German heavy water pile had no control rods, so if a chain reaction was initiated, it might very possibly have gone into a meltdown and done a "Chernobyl" right there in Berlin. I think that a German heavy water pile choice ought to have a event so that there is a 50% chance of setting off a dirty nuke attack on Berlin when the heavy water pile tech is completed by the Germans.