Could a modern-day simulation vault Paradox into the big leagues?

[ZechsMerquise73]

Paradox seems to throw their hand into politics a lot. I can imagine a game set in the modern era centering too much attention on Darfur and Tibet. Probably would present the middle east conflict with a rather lopsided approach, and might not render Finland as a state P).

I really don't know if I'd want to sit there in the grime and sleeze of the modern world. If it starts in the 50's, you have to go through all the genocides of Mao, Stalin, and Pot. The pointless wars in South America and Asia over ideology. The East/West separation of Germany. Kosovo, Rwanda, the Gulf Wars, the Korean war, the Sierra Leone crisis, Georgia. Drug trade. Terrorism. Sex slave rings. Child sex slave rings. The earth-wide disappearance of morality and culture. These past 60 years are not something with which I can see myself being anything but disturbed.

This forum has managed to stay decently away from heated political and nationalist conflict, for which I commend everyone here. But I think a game set in this era could push things over the top. The game would no longer be dealing with ancient conflicts, that can be rationalized to the modern thought. But dealing directly with the modern day issues.

 

[Balesir]

The earth-wide disappearance of morality and culture.

I must have missed that!

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Sex slave rings. Child sex slave rings.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be depicted. Kind of hard to imagine Brother Bean and Darkrenown sitting around brainstorming events that deal with it.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

I must have missed that!

It goes hand in hand with what I described just before that. People, the world over, are so desensitized, they really think it is alright to buy illegal drugs, thus funding the worst terrorists in the world. Without any care of the consequences, or thought about those whom they're giving extreme power with their oodles of money. You live in England; can you can walk into the bathroom of a bar without it being covered in cocaine trafficked from the African Horn, trafficked from Columbia?

They have centered their new culture around violence and sex, obsessed with grotesque and arbitrary acts of both. Things like hardcore pornography, including child pornography, are no longer on the extreme fringe; but are things people get into when the regular pornography isn't enough anymore. People are obsessed with torturous violence, which prevails in many different forms of media. In fact, these two elements dominate media around the world, no matter the specific form. The masses, in general, have an angry, uncooperative, and definitely violent mindset. You can't even drive where I live without having a violent altercation. If you haven't been taken up by this new wave, then you are really the fringe; how can you not notice?

In just the few things I mentioned, I wonder why you would further question that this world has globally gone insane. Wars alone are relatively common, bloody hecatombs of slaughter; often perpetrated over nothing and between people of the same nation. And I think 'child sex slave rings' say all a sentence needs to say about moral degradation.

Culture is globalizing. Look what we're doing. This is an example in and of itself. We, and several other people, all with rather different backgrounds, find our melting pot here on this mass communication device. Even in the most rural part of the world, people are abandoning their now "traditional" ways of life for faster, more economic, less meaningful culture.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be depicted. Kind of hard to imagine Brother Bean and Darkrenown sitting around brainstorming events that deal with it.

Well, I doubt they'd put that in a game any more than they'd put The War of the Roses into EuIII. That doesn't make the subject a very dark marker of the past few decades.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Well, I doubt they'd put that in a game any more than they'd put The War of the Roses into EuIII. That doesn't make the subject a very dark marker of the past few decades.

Well, no offence, but it's sort of irrelevant to this thread and any hypothetical game set in the era then, isn't it?

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

Well, no offence, but it's sort of irrelevant to this thread and any hypothetical game set in the era then, isn't it?

People Trafficking is a major and global problem of the 20th and 21st centuries. It was even somewhat of a problem of the 19th century. Much moreso a problem than terrorism as is defined by "terrorizing civilians for political gains".

Although, People Trafficking in itself can be defined as 'terrorism' and certainly 'terrorists', in a sense, traffic people.

Edit: Wikipedia, with two sources, says "It is the fastest growing criminal industry in the world, and tied with the illegal arms industry as the second largest, after the drug-trade"

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

People Trafficking is a major and global problem of the 20th and 21st centuries. It was even somewhat of a problem of the 19th century. Much moreso a problem than terrorism as is defined by "terrorizing civilians for political gains".

Although, People Trafficking in itself can be defined as 'terrorism' and certainly 'terrorists', in a sense, traffic people.

Edit: Wikipedia, with two sources, says "It is the fastest growing criminal industry in the world, and tied with the illegal arms industry as the second largest, after the drug-trade"

You may have noticed that for legal and common sense reasons, Paradox don't feature some aspects of eras regardless of how important they were. I'm thinking HoI here. No need to say anymore than that.

 

[Balesir]

It goes hand in hand with what I described just before that. People, the world over, are so desensitized, they really think it is alright to buy illegal drugs, thus funding the worst terrorists in the world. Without any care of the consequences, or thought about those whom they're giving extreme power with their oodles of money. You live in England; can you can walk into the bathroom of a bar without it being covered in cocaine trafficked from the African Horn, trafficked from Columbia?

They have centered their new culture around violence and sex, obsessed with grotesque and arbitrary acts of both. Things like hardcore pornography, including child pornography, are no longer on the extreme fringe; but are things people get into when the regular pornography isn't enough anymore. People are obsessed with torturous violence, which prevails in many different forms of media. In fact, these two elements dominate media around the world, no matter the specific form. The masses, in general, have an angry, uncooperative, and definitely violent mindset. You can't even drive where I live without having a violent altercation. If you haven't been taken up by this new wave, then you are really the fringe; how can you not notice?

Oh, you think all that is new? A suggestion - read more history.

If governments make stuff that does not need to be illegal against the law it funds criminals - look at prohibition in the USA in the 1920s.

People trafficking - when the people involved want to be trafficked - goes with increased ease of transit with discriminatory border blocks. In the old days it was called 'slavery', and the impetus to go was force instead of marketing.

Sex and violence have always been a preoccupation - look at folk songs of the 17th to 19th centuries.

As to "the youth of today are violent" - that refrain has echoed down through history. It might even reach a crescendo at semi-regular intervals. See Strauss and Howe - "Generations: a History of America's Future" for an intriguing hypothesis.

But, all this "new" - no. There is hardly anything truly new under the sun.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

Oh, you think all that is new? A suggestion - read more history.

If governments make stuff that does not need to be illegal against the law it funds criminals - look at prohibition in the USA in the 1920s.

The violence over 1920's Prohibition is a joke compared to the international drug syndicate problems and other local drug problems of today. You're talking some idiot making alcohol in his bathtub compared to the world's largest criminal industry, with anchors in almost every location on the planet. From the jungles of Columbia, to the hill country of Canada and USA, to the forests of Laos. You must be joking, because there is nothing, nothing comparable here.

Criminal syndicates that make and sell drugs are some of the most powerful economic and political institutions on the planet. How could you even make a game based in this era without the international drug problems, and the state-like behavior of drug cartels in central and south America? These problems aren't as simple as you think, but having complex environmental, social, political, and economic. The forests in the south east Asia are being depopulated for Ecstasy, every 'Mom and Pop' in the 'civilized' world is making methamphetamines; tying themselves in with larger drug syndicates, then you have the illegal trade and abuse of prescription drugs.

Also, I am not saying these problems didn't exist in the decades before the 50's, but our modern world showcases the full fruition of all these different social problems.

People trafficking - when the people involved want to be trafficked - goes with increased ease of transit with discriminatory border blocks. In the old days it was called 'slavery', and the impetus to go was force instead of marketing.

People trafficking does not involve the willing transportation of peoples. "Discriminatory border blocks"? It has to do with the kidnap (or other use of forced 'volition') of persons to force into sex slavery. Are you really, really saying that people allow themselves to be enslaved for whatever pocket change they might get at first? You do realise that a good percentage of these people are children? Even if a person did become a prostitute for money, but was latter forced into slavery, that is certainly no justification. That is the most offensive thing I have heard today. Are you the type of person who likes to bring out the difference between "rape" and "consensual rape"?

Sex and violence have always been a preoccupation - look at folk songs of the 17th to 19th centuries.

You're comparing another mole hill with a mountain. Suggestive lyrics of music and poetry from 200 years ago is nothing, nothing on the level with what things are like today.

As to "the youth of today are violent" - that refrain has echoed down through history. It might even reach a crescendo at semi-regular intervals. See Strauss and Howe - "Generations: a History of America's Future" for an intriguing hypothesis.

Do not put quotations around things I did not utter, or in any way shape or form refer to. No, I do not mean young people. I did not mention young people. People in general are violent. People have become violent as opposed to "being born violent".

But, all this "new" - no. There is hardly anything truly new under the sun.

I didn't say it was new. I said it was different. And it is different, if you have any sense of perception.

You may have noticed that for legal and common sense reasons, Paradox don't feature some aspects of eras regardless of how important they were. I'm thinking HoI here. No need to say anymore than that.

Why shy away from such a major problem? That's leaving out a major political element of the modern world. Several NATO governments dish out large sums of money each year to try and help deal with this problem.

 

[LeeDub]

I'd imagine this has little place in a MDS game and would therefore not be represented.

 

[Balesir]

The violence over 1920's Prohibition is a joke compared to the international drug syndicate problems and other local drug problems of today.

What is the argument, here? That murder that happened a long time ago was not as bad as murders that happen now because, well, they were a long time ago...? Is the problem wider in scope than in the '20s? Yes, of course - because there are more people in the world and the issue affects the whole American Empire, not just the USA itself.

You're talking some idiot making alcohol in his bathtub compared to the world's largest criminal industry, with anchors in almost every location on the planet. From the jungles of Columbia, to the hill country of Canada and USA, to the forests of Laos. You must be joking, because there is nothing, nothing comparable here.

So, you are ignorant of the scope and nature of the Prohibition booze business. It's actually very similar, although on a larger scale as I say above.

Criminal syndicates that make and sell drugs are some of the most powerful economic and political institutions on the planet.

Alongside other major businesses, yes, of course. Money talks, especially where people are poor. T'was ever thus. But who has handed the power/money/business to criminals? We have - where "we" are the Western democracies.

How could you even make a game based in this era without the international drug problems, and the state-like behavior of drug cartels in central and south America?

In the same way as Victoria is made with abstracted opium and slave trades, or EU is made with abstracted slavery. Such issues are part of the scene that governments through the ages have had to deal with - the same applies in the modern era.

Also, I am not saying these problems didn't exist in the decades before the 50's, but our modern world showcases the full fruition of all these different social problems.

So, your argument actually is that murder, enslavement and rape in history are less immoral than the same things today because they happened a long time ago??

People trafficking does not involve the willing transportation of peoples.

Part of it does - if you want to talk about the other part, fine, but don't expect us to know that without explanation.

"Discriminatory border blocks"?

Immigration controls - I'm talking about the part of "people trafficking" that involves exploiting the peoples' desire (and inability) to migrate to a rich country.

It has to do with the kidnap (or other use of forced 'volition') of persons to force into sex slavery. Are you really, really saying that people allow themselves to be enslaved for whatever pocket change they might get at first? You do realise that a good percentage of these people are children? Even if a person did become a prostitute for money, but was latter forced into slavery, that is certainly no justification. That is the most offensive thing I have heard today. Are you the type of person who likes to bring out the difference between "rape" and "consensual rape"?

This part of the "trade" is slavery, pure and simple. And it goes back at least 5,000 years.

You're comparing another mole hill with a mountain. Suggestive lyrics of music and poetry from 200 years ago is nothing, nothing on the level with what things are like today.

I'm not talking "suggestive" lyrics, I'm talking explicit, both for sex and for violence (and for combinations of both). The fact that there were no media to drool over the shocking details doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Do not put quotations around things I did not utter, or in any way shape or form refer to. No, I do not mean young people. I did not mention young people. People in general are violent. People have become violent as opposed to "being born violent".

Given your rant about "consensual rape" above, this is pretty rich. Young people grow older - the "violent public" is a notion that has recurred throughout history.

I didn't say it was new. I said it was different. And it is different, if you have any sense of perception.

You seem to have been sold an exaggerated perception of the present but no realistic perception at all about the past. If you are as wedded to the view you have been given as you seem, I'm probably wasting my breath, but I'll give it this one, last go. As to "how to include all this in a game" - the same way as with all the previous games in the Paradox stable - abstract the nub of the issue as it relates to political strategy, and leave it at that.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

Really, all this has been skirting the issue, anyway. I started out implying that the era could not be accurately depicted without these issues present. That's pretty independent of past. Some of these issues would need portrayal in the Victorian era, but that has no bearing on what I'm saying.

Perhaps a rational for not including the Holocaust in HOI is that the game is about the war, not everything that occurred in that era. But if this game were about the century between 1950 and 2050, issues like genocide and "democide" would have to be addressed. They had never occurred on this scale; frequency or mass. Genocide is a looming threat in some parts of the world.

All I'm saying from my first post is, that people probably don't want to be entrenched by the problems that they hear about on a daily basis, problems that should be the focal point of a simulation in the modern era. Really, what would you do after the Cold War if problems such as terrorism, looming ecological disaster, social disorder, social breakdown, and international crime, were not addressed? Those are the problems the governments of today deal with.

Edit: Also, like I said before, it would cause problems with modern nationalists. People posting "Albania vs Greece" AARs is going to start some firestorms. Other modern nation-claims and nationalist ideas could spark problems.


In Re: Balesire

I haven't been talking about the past. I admit several times that these events occurred in the past, but today they are on a different scale. War has always existed, for example, but more people were killed in the first and second world wars than all the people killed in the wars preceding them, put together. Your arguments are quite like a person who, after hearing that, continues to argue that war has always existed. That has nothing to do with the issue. Or, perhaps, I am talking about steam engines in the 19th century, and you refer that they have existed since the 1st century.


You speak of the violent public, and yes, people have always been inherently violent. But I'm saying that the scale and type of their violence is different. Rather than an inherent tendency to shift toward violence, many people's immediate disposition to situations is violent behavior, whether aggressively or 'passively' violent.

Your statements ignore cause and effect. They assume that an increase of exposure to several types of violence, which is usually justified in their societies, does not lead to more violent attitudes. You promote a violent society and you get a violent society. Its that simple. Things build on each other; to assume that things (no matter what they are) always stay the same is completely opposed to scientific fact and all possible observations of the world around us.


I'm not going to further argue with someone saying I don't know anything about history, and at the same time claim that American prohibition was worse than the present global drug problem. That's just ridiculous. In the future, back up your statements by describing individual situations, rather than using rhetorical generalities.

I still can't get past your comparing the 'cultural' phenomenon that would include the ever-popular torture movie genre (IE, Saw I-VI), the pornography industry, the child pornography industry to... 17th century song and poetry. PM me an example of such ultra-violent 17th century media, please. I'm aware of pornographic media from the era, although I would say that its nothing on par with what we see today.

 

[LeeDub]

Really, all this has been skirting the issue, anyway. I started out implying that the era could not be accurately depicted without these issues present.

Sure it can. Every Paradox game succesfully skirted such issues with no impact on realism or gameplay.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

Sure it can. Every Paradox game succesfully skirted such issues with no impact on realism or gameplay.

I made some points about HOI and the modern signifigance of genocide. I also stated that some of these problems are the main problems that governments today deal with. What do you think about the points I made?

Really, I guess what people here want is a conquest game set in the modern era, rather than a simulator, as the title says.

Edit: Eu3 did not skirt the issue of serfdom. CK and EU3 did not skirt religious corruption in the Catholic Church and Papacy. Eu3 did not skirt the religious infighting of the Reformation period. Vicky II did not skirt slavery. They made a several games themed around religious war! The reason, I think, why HOI skirted the Nazi genocide is for the sake of taste concerning a recent event; especially so that players would not be running event to kill people of religions or ethnicity. Like I said before, the holocaust itself played little role in the politics of the second world war, so excluding it is somewhat excusable.

Genocide, like I said, played a major role in the last 50 years of the 20th century. I don't see why you'd exclude organized crime and the 'recreational' drugs industry; especially considering how they have powerful political manifestations, particularly in South America. Terrorism is said to be the main enemy of the western governments today. It would probably do some good for Paradox to bring attention to the people trafficking problem, rather than ignoring it. Now, you can take all the politics and relevant events out of the game, so you just have a conquest game. But then, of course, there have already been grand strategy conquest games set in the modern era.

 

[LeeDub]

I made some points about HOI and the modern signifigance of genocide. I also stated that some of these problems are the main problems that governments today deal with. What do you think about the points I made?

The Holocaust was a major part of the Nazi ideology and without it, it's hard to vilify the nazis as anything else above common warmongers. Yet a game ABOUT WW2 completely skips the issue. Thus, A MDS game can easily get away with not including any notions of genocide whatsoever. Drugs and all other forms of organised crime would probably be depicted, though. I can't imagine playing as Mexico or Colombia and not having some internal events/decisions/modifiers to reflect their situation. Terrorism in general would probably be present. Genocide? Not so much. Several african countries would have negative stability/high mlitancy/revoltrisk/whatever Paradox would come up with, but that's it. There's absolutely no need to present genocide in any other way.

 

[Seli]

@ZechsMerquise73

Paradox has a long history of abstracting and ignoring were possible the issues you mention.

But also pay attention to the game market, the big problems you mention at time are actually the core of a large amount of highly popular games. Look at the grand theft auto series for example. And even though the scale today may be huge, the penetration of the problem into the highest levels of government (which paradox games tend to mimic) is probably relatively smaller than it ever has been. So they could be abstracted to a level of the crime buildings in CK.

But mainly, please read up on history. Paradox games already cover a period with large scale human trafficking. A period of companies and individuals ruling areas the size of big countries for profit violently exploiting the local population while at the same time trading at a normal basis in the 'civilized' world. A period were countries suffered more (relatively speaking) then any nation in the world wars (30 year war, paraguay, central asian wars, crusades). Periods described in stories and sagas so bloody, violent and uncaring that people would probably rebel if they would be published today.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

I'm referring to the trade of people for use as sex slaves, and more specifically, for use in commercial prostitution and other sex-related businesses. Trade of labor slaves wasn't what I was thinking about when I made those comments. I tried to make that clear, but obviously I wasn't clear enough.


I am familiar with the events you're writing about. The "democide" in Paraguay was one of the worst things I've ever heard about. Still, it was an isolated event for the time period, certainly. While being extremely disastrous for Paraguay, its effects were not as far-reaching or on the same scale with "democide" events committed in the last seventy years. Those were not isolated events, but occurred relatively frequently.

I don't think people care about the crimes of the Crusades, at least in the West. There are always the movies and books to glorify that violence. People like to play down the extreme violence of the 30 years war, and certainly Paradox did as well.

 

[Variton]

@Zechs. All those issues mentioned would have been valid for any Paradox game. Yet they have handled them quite successfully. Although they are tragic to people involved, regardless of the timeperiod I might add, they are not that relevant as the GAME in question is concerned. Paradox has the option to excude/include events or gameplay functions as they see best. "Immoral business" and other crime is in VIC2, some more catastrophic events are not in VIC2 etc.

From VIC2 Paradox could take the main principles of
- Politics
- Diplomacy
- Industry
- Population

One would only have to bring in modern content to the game, like service sector workers, modern products etc.

Warfare would naturally need more changing. Land warfare I don't see as a great obstacle. Aerial combat, on the other hand, could be tricky to abstract to the level of VIC2 style warfare?

 

[BiB]

I think we've strayed enough by now.