Could we merge Celtic with British?

[Grand Historian]

I had posted this earlier in the regular forums to get the community's feedback on whether or not this was a good suggestion, and since most of the reception I have got is positive, I feel confident in suggesting that we merge what's leftover of the Celtic Group with the British Culture Groups here. To quote my post that explains the reasoning:

This occurred to me when Breton got shifted into the French Culture Group, and was actually a direct consequence of it, but I think this would be better for gameplay (and a few historical reasons). First, it would solve the problem of the English culture converting their problems away, and make Great Britain a far more useful union (especially since British has only 3 cultures, and one of them almost never shows). And, though English is linguistically (and culturally) not much like Welsh, Scottish or Irish, all three are relatively closer to each other, but since Scottish is in the British group they get penalized for holding Irish/Welsh provinces and vice-versa. Likewise, though the English never really managed to pacify the Irish (to be fair, they ferociously resisted anyone who invaded, they just had a particular dislike of the English due to the consistency of their invasions), throughout most of the period, past 1500, they had very little trouble with the Welsh and Cornish. And, on less abstract note, the only Celtic Cultures left are the ones on the British Isles.

 

[quinntan2222]

Wouldn't it really make more sense to just remove the group? There is no real reason for its existence beyond Ireland. Braking Scotland in twain will hurt an already very weak country and having it composed of two different culture groups is going to result in plenty of odd revolts (since Highlandish will never defect to Scotland, assuming that Scotland becomes Lowlandish). Perhaps Irish should simply be a one-culture group, like Hungarian.

Scotland's small enough that they will accept Highlander from the beginning and only suffer from revolts if they grow too big. Plus, it might give England some problems in Scotland after they conquer it, which adds to historical flavor.

 

[Grand Historian]

Scotland's small enough that they will accept Highlander from the beginning and only suffer from revolts if they grow too big. Plus, it might give England some problems in Scotland after they conquer it, which adds to historical flavor.

True, but what happens if Scotland forms Great Britain?

 

[quinntan2222]

True, but what happens if Scotland forms Great Britain?

Then they also get Highlander revolts. A lot of effort from the Scottish kings went into keeping the clans subdued and loyal.

 

[Macsen]

I think Welsh could conceivably be moved into the British group.

If the Welsh are moved into the same culture group the English are in I'm going to spit feathers. Paradox did a good job with Cymru's (Wales) ideas so I'd have hoped someone at Paradox had the historical knowledge to realize that in 1444 there are still vast differences between the English and Welsh, even well into the 1800's almost everyone in Wales spoke Welsh until the use of the Welsh Not and other barbaric practices/laws were enforced to anglicise us. Our cultural origins are completely different, they should not be in the same culture group! The same argument would be saying the Chinese Cultures should be in the Mongol or Manchu groups because they were conquered and ruled by them.

Increasing the province count in Ireland and Ynys Prydein (Britain) sounds great, culturally I'd like to see something along these lines:

Brythonic/Briton: Welsh/Cornish/Breton
Gaelic: Irish/Highland Scots
Anglo (or Anglo Saxon/British): English/Lowland Scots/American (United Statesian)

And give Scotland and British Empire national decisions to make certain cultures not within their culture group accepted.

i.e. Scotland - Highland Scots.
British Empire - Cornish/Welsh/Highland Scots/Irish

 

[Vaximillian]

And give Scotland and British Empire national decisions to make certain cultures not within their culture group accepted.

It is impossible with the current system. Cultural acceptance mechanism is absolutely dynamic.

 

[Grand Historian]

It is impossible with the current system. Cultural acceptance mechanism is absolutely dynamic.

And is an example of why too much dynamism, like too much railroading, is also a bad thing.

 

[Titanius Puffin]

One of the weirder things about English is that - to the best of my knowledge - it retains some celtic structure. The west German dialects changed the form on nouns depending on how they were being used, much like Latin. However modern English (and Old English) relies on the order of nouns in a sentence to specify the meaning (e.g. compare 'the policeman arrests the burglar' with 'the burglar arrests the policemen'). This is a structure it shares with neighbouring celtic languages.

So in a weird way English can claim commonality with Gaelic languages, although it's a language dominated by Anglo-Francish vocabulary.
Unfortunately, the culture acceptance mechanic is rather simple in EU4; a culture is part of family 'a' or family 'b'. It is either accepted by 'x' kingdom, or it isn't. Such a system is mostly fine, but it can't capture the cross-pollination of language very well.

Personally, I don't mind the status quo - if only because telling an Irishman (or woman) that they are 'British' is a bit like telling a Finn that they're really just Swedes. It's a great way to pick a fight.

 

[Mauer]

Personally, I don't mind the status quo - if only because telling an Irishman (or woman) that they are 'British' is a bit like telling a Finn that they're really just Swedes. It's a great way to pick a fight.

Isn't it more like saying Finns are scandinavians?

Just call the culture group "Anglo-Celtic Islander" or something.

 

[grommile]

Isn't it more like saying Finns are scandinavians?

"Scandinavian" isn't the civic nationality of a unitary state that annexed Finland by armed force.

"British" is the civic nationality of the successor to the unitary state that annexed Ireland by armed force.

 

[Grand Pope Papa]

Adding a Celtic Scottish Highland culture would mean that it would be replaced by English culutre in 50 years. The thing is when playing as Great Britain everyone (players and AI) likes to see their British isles working to the max. This means all provinces must have the state religion and have an accepted culture (even tough this never happened IRL).

Yes I agree, it is nice to add flavour to the game, but it is sad to see that the flavour is usualy gone after 50 years.

So why not just add Ireland to the cultural union like you did with Brittany and France? And to compensate make Irish revolts events more common and powerful.

 

[Me_]

Adding a Celtic Scottish Highland culture would mean that it would be replaced by English culutre in 50 years. The thing is when playing as Great Britain everyone (players and AI) likes to see their British isles working to the max. This means all provinces must have the state religion and have an accepted culture (even tough this never happened IRL).

Yes I agree, it is nice to add flavour to the game, but it is sad to see that the flavour is usualy gone after 50 years.

So why not just add Ireland to the cultural union like you did with Brittany and France? And to compensate make Irish revolts events more common and powerful.

More importantly it would mean that after England takes over Scotland is formed Scotland would lose cores on Highlands after a while and it would later be impossible to get a Scotland that would cover all of Scotland. Plus Highlander culture would need its own tag.

Celtic culture as it stands right now does not really benefit the game. All it does is encourages English/Scottish players to change culture of Irish and Welsh provinces.

"Scandinavian" isn't the civic nationality of a unitary state that annexed Finland by armed force.

"British" is the civic nationality of the successor to the unitary state that annexed Ireland by armed force.

Eh, it seems to me like there is too much nationalism here to see the game in the game. Whether Irish is in its own Culture Group or not does not mean that the British soldiers will land on your shores tomorrow. Your culture does not become inferior just because some game somewhere in the world puts you together with another culture, which to an outsider is indistinguishable from yours, anyway.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

I think Welsh could conceivably be moved into the British group. Irish... not so much. Would want to add more provinces to Ireland and perhaps a Celtic Scottish Highland culture if we're reducing the Celtic group that much though.

The problem would be better served splitting up English culture into Northern and Southern English and giving the Britain tag acceptance of Celtic Culture, while moving Scottish back into and keeping welsh Celtic. Either that or giving the English/British an event which lowers the accepted culture threshold which would also make a lot more sense historically throughout the timeline.

 

[BrokenSky]

Would it be possible to add a system where a culture moves from one group to another, for example if France, The french cultural union, holds all the Breton provinces in the world, Breton can move (maybe takes some dip. points, but much less than culture converting every province and a long time, but doesn't block for example missionaries) into the french group. If Britain, the British Cultural union holds all the welsh provinces welsh can shift from Celtic to British. What about that?

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Would it be possible to add a system where a culture moves from one group to another, for example if France, The french cultural union, holds all the Breton provinces in the world, Breton can move (maybe takes some dip. points, but much less than culture converting every province and a long time, but doesn't block for example missionaries) into the french group. If Britain, the British Cultural union holds all the welsh provinces welsh can shift from Celtic to British. What about that?

Suggest it as another full thread, a bit of thought might spring up some good ideas to make this really viable.

 

[Mauer]

Would it be possible to add a system where a culture moves from one group to another, for example if France, The french cultural union, holds all the Breton provinces in the world, Breton can move (maybe takes some dip. points, but much less than culture converting every province and a long time, but doesn't block for example missionaries) into the french group. If Britain, the British Cultural union holds all the welsh provinces welsh can shift from Celtic to British. What about that?

It makes sense for closely located cultures like those you mentioned or Pommeranians becoming germanized, I don't think so for others or we'd have Maltese becoming British IRL.

 

[mattd_]

I think Welsh could conceivably be moved into the British group. Irish... not so much. Would want to add more provinces to Ireland and perhaps a Celtic Scottish Highland culture if we're reducing the Celtic group that much though.

So something like this then? https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-british-isles-map-cultures-and-trade.853799/ *hint hint*

 

[BrokenSky]

It makes sense for closely located cultures like those you mentioned or Pommeranians becoming germanized, I don't think so for others or we'd have Maltese becoming British IRL.

Thats a joke about how maltese became british, right?