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Dr Pippy

Major
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Sep 27, 2020
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Sometime around 1.1, the developers reasonably decided that the pistol part of the Sword and Pistol weapon was too good. As I understand it, this was mostly because of the ability to ignore half of the targets defense/resistance. They did two things to tone it down a bit: (1) reduced the T1 damage from 22 (I think; it's been a while) to 16, and (2) added a one-turn cool-down to the Fire Magelock option.

This second part is terrible in a variety of ways, and should be reverted as expeditiously as possible. The main problem is that a ranged-focused ranger should rarely if ever use Sword and Pistol, since they'll only be able to use their ranged attack every other turn. Since the only other firearm is the rifle, which can't be used with a mount, there are basically no options if I want to have a gun-focused hero who can also ride a mount. From a flavor perspective, this feels bad and unnecessarily restrictive.

Moreover, the damage reduction is sufficient to bring S&P into line with Sword and Crossbow without additional nerfs. The pistol does 16 damage at T1 up to 28 damage at T4, while the crossbow ranges from 20 at T1 to 32 at T4. So S&P will always do less damage against a target with low defense, and pull ahead when the target has high defense. When is the break-even point?

Each point of defense/resistance multiplies incoming damage by 0.9 (multiplicatively). At T1, the pistol only does 14/20=70% as much damage as the crossbow, so you don't break even until the pistol's breaching ability cuts defense by log(0.7)/log(0.9)=3.39. In other words, a T1 pistol will do less damage than a crossbow until you're shooting at enemies with 7 defense. The T4 pistol is more competitive: it does 28/32=87.5% as much damage as a T4 crossbow, and so will do more damage against enemies with 2*log(0.875)/log(0.9)~3 defense, which should be most late-game targets. All of which is to say that the S&P combo is straight-up worse than S&C in the early game, and doesn't pull ahead until you're rolling around with high-tier weapons, by which point you're probably in win-more territory.

And even if you don't want pistols pulling ahead of crossbows in the late game, there are less frustrating ways to accomplish this than only allowing you to fire them every other turn. One possibility would be to reduce the pistol's damage scaling from 4 points per weapon tier to only 3, so you'd be doing 24 damage at T4, which is only 75% of crossbow damage and would therefore not pull ahead until the target has ~6 defense. (In fact, this would keep you doing 75% of crossbow damage at every tier, which means you'd always do less damage against defense of 5 or lower, and more against 6 or higher.)

Or even just lower base pistol damage more. I don't think that's really necessary, but it would still be better than the current situation.
 
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Sometime around 1.1, the developers reasonably decided that the pistol part of the Sword and Pistol weapon was too good. As I understand it, this was mostly because of the ability to ignore half of the targets defense/resistance. They did two things to tone it down a bit: (1) reduced the T1 damage from 22 (I think; it's been a while) to 16, and (2) added a one-turn cool-down to the Fire Magelock option.

This second part is terrible in a variety of ways, and should be reverted as expeditiously as possible. The main problem is that a ranged-focused ranger should rarely if ever use Sword and Pistol, since they'll only be able to use their ranged attack every other turn. Since the only other firearm is the rifle, which can't be used with a mount, there are basically no options if I want to have a gun-focused hero who can also ride a mount. From a flavor perspective, this feels bad and unnecessarily restrictive.

Moreover, the damage reduction is sufficient to bring S&P into line with Sword and Crossbow without additional nerfs. The pistol does 16 damage at T1 up to 28 damage at T4, while the crossbow ranges from 20 at T1 to 32 at T4. So S&P will always do less damage against a target with low defense, and pull ahead when the target has high defense. When is the break-even point?

Each point of defense/resistance multiplies incoming damage by 0.9 (multiplicatively). At T1, the pistol only does 14/20=70% as much damage as the crossbow, so you don't break even until the pistol's breaching ability cuts defense by log(0.7)/log(0.9)=3.39. In other words, a T1 pistol will do less damage than a crossbow until you're shooting at enemies with 7 defense. The T4 pistol is more competitive: it does 28/32=87.5% as much damage as a T4 crossbow, and so will do more damage against enemies with 2*log(0.875)/log(0.9)~3 defense, which should be most late-game targets. All of which is to say that the S&P combo is straight-up worse than S&C in the early game, and doesn't pull ahead until you're rolling around with high-tier weapons, by which point you're probably in win-more territory.

And even if you don't want pistols pulling ahead of crossbows in the late game, there are less frustrating ways to accomplish this than only allowing you to fire them every other turn. One possibility would be to reduce the pistol's damage scaling from 4 points per weapon tier to only 3, so you'd be doing 24 damage at T4, which is only 75% of crossbow damage and would therefore not pull ahead until the target has ~6 defense. (In fact, this would keep you doing 75% of crossbow damage at every tier, which means you'd always do less damage against defense of 5 or lower, and more against 6 or higher.)

Or even just lower base pistol damage more. I don't think that's really necessary, but it would still be better than the current situation.
Excellent comparisons. I'd prefer to see both take a turn to reload their shots, since they have melee weapons to fall back on, but different in damage types or percent chance of certain buffs/debuffs. Maybe pistol can enact slow/armor break while crossbow does bleeding/armor break?

It could make crossbows a more thematic choice for future vampyric heroes. I would also like to see pistol and rifle magelocks get a bayonet or grenade addition for their t4+ special skill.
 
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Honnestly that also why, skirmishers are in two categories. Some are with a cooldown, some don't. For me, it is a crime because when you choose it generally its for his capacity to deal damage at range. If not, Shields units are generally better.

So yeah I agree with you and personnally, I prefer little bit LESS damage, but constant functionnality. That why Shade, Dragoon, Gremlin, Slither and Sunderer are the only ones that I use. Other could be extremely useful but... I can't because in majority of cases, there is a high risk that the effect For which I pay with a cooldown is countered pass the early game (Exception is perhaps Stormbringer, but even here, my main point stay = he can't be use at range all the turns)
 
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I'd prefer to see both take a turn to reload their shots, since they have melee weapons to fall back on
I'd be much more open to this if you could get pistols independently of swords.

Really, they should add a range-only pistol weapon. (Or dual pistols? Two pistols for faster reload, so you can fire one shot per round.) I appreciate that this involves a certain amount of work to generate animations, and that animators' time is precious, but I feel like this would be sufficiently awesome to justify the time spent.
 
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I'd be much more open to this if you could get pistols independently of swords.

Really, they should add a range-only pistol weapon. (Or dual pistols? Two pistols for faster reload, so you can fire one shot per round.) I appreciate that this involves a certain amount of work to generate animations, and that animators' time is precious, but I feel like this would be sufficiently awesome to justify the time spent.
I dream of the animation team being able to do that. I think this was brought up to them before around late season 1, and they offered the reason of it being simpler for them to combine items and animation and something related to balance.

But if it IS somehow possible to dual weild weapons, season 3 would be the one to show it.
 
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Yes, furthermore, the throwing daggers seem like straight upgrades to even the crossbow, too. Unless there's some hidden properties I'm not aware of, they do even more base damage than the crossbow and have no cooldown. It legitimately baffles me as to why this is or why anyone would use anything else.
 
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Yes, furthermore, the throwing daggers seem like straight upgrades to even the crossbow, too. Unless there's some hidden properties I'm not aware of, they do even more base damage than the crossbow and have no cooldown. It legitimately baffles me as to why this is or why anyone would use anything else.
On the other side of the coin, you have Javelins which do less damage than the crossbow, don't appear to have any obvious secondary effects, and also can't be used with a mount. I can't imagine why I would ever deliberately craft this.

Looks like the skirmisher weapons in general are due for a balance and QoL pass.
 
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And another thing!

Looks like the blowgun now disables the mount slot. When did this happen? And why? (I didn't see it in any patch notes, but didn't spend long looking.) I'm very much not a fan of the number of weapons that disable mount slots, and it looks like we're getting more of them rather than less. Some of them make sense — e.g. polearms and great big hammers — but others don't seem to have a lot of rhyme or reason.
 
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emmm ... when was blowgun possible on a mount?
I mean... always? It certainly was when Primal Fury came out. I'm pretty sure about this because one of my Pantheon heroes was designed as a blow-gunner that would ride around on a velociraptor, and it was very disappointing when I recruited him as a hero in my current playthrough and he didn't have his velociraptor.
 
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I mean... always? It certainly was when Primal Fury came out. I'm pretty sure about this because one of my Pantheon heroes was designed as a blow-gunner that would ride around on a velociraptor, and it was very disappointing when I recruited him as a hero in my current playthrough and he didn't have his velociraptor.
Huh, I was really certain it was never a mount weapon ... but now I don't know. :S
 
True and it should be done as as whole and not just one thing in a vacuum (like pistol for example), but some complaints are kinda strange people are mixing skirmisher weapons with pure range weapons for some reason.
Like Jav does do more damage than X-bow and Sword but can not be mounted so there is logic there.
 
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I'd consider some options but the mount cost is too high even if I can potentially acquire one later. I'd have to specifically be buying mounted race or athletics, but I don't generally take athletics or mounted for the sake mounted + a starting weapon.

Dunno if anyone does?