Creating a kingdom of heresy?

[Ambigore]

I'd like to create a heretical kingdom / dynasty for my next game but am curious as to how I should go about it. Creating a court of ex-communicated heretics is hard enough, let alone creating a single heretic as my ruler. I would also like to make my provinces heretical, as well as my vassals if possible. Is this possible? What traits are heretic / ex-com friendly? In my last game my ex-communicated king couldn't hold his court together as advisors were quitting in droves due to low loyalty.

 

[Alqamar]

This could be solved having Antipopes and... whatever. Now, seriously... I guess that holding together a court when the ruler is a heretic is pretty difficult. I have never modded CK, but I guess if it could be solved with a modifier that made those with the trait "Heretic" more loyal to other Heretics. I don't know whether it's possible.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

This could be solved having Antipopes and... whatever. Now, seriously... I guess that holding together a court when the ruler is a heretic is pretty difficult. I have never modded CK, but I guess if it could be solved with a modifier that made those with the trait "Heretic" more loyal to other Heretics. I don't know whether it's possible.

That is already the case, characters with the heretic trait like other characters with the heretic trait very much.

heretic = {
	opinion_of = -25
	opinion = {
		bastard = 3
		crusader = -15
		detached_priest = -3
		ecclesiastical_education = -2
		excommunicated = 10
		forgiving = 3
		heretic = 35
		martial_cleric = -8
		mastermind_theologian = -10
		merciful = 3
		sceptical = 5
		scholarly_theologian = -6
		suspicious = -2
		zealous = -5 }
	attributes = { }
}

bastards, excommunicated, forgiving, merfifull and sceptical people also like heretic characters.

 

[Alqamar]

That is already the case, characters with the heretic trait like other characters with the heretic trait very much.
Bastards, excommunicated, forgiving, merfifull and sceptical people also like heretic characters.

That's nice... but is it more probable for courts with Heretic rulers to attract Heretic courtiers?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

That's nice... but is it more probable for courts with Heretic rulers to attract Heretic courtiers?

Don't know, but it is more probably for courtiers to also become heretic if their ruler is.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

You also get heretic events for demesne provinces if your ruler is a Heretic, so if you limit yourself to only your demesne a heretic kingdom is certainly feasible.

 

[Drachenfire]

I've never contemplated actually playing towards a court of heretical people! What would be the result do you think Veld and everyone? Also, do you have those stand alone gay traits still available? And would they too be attracted to a heretical court?

I like the idea of playing a heretical court and promoting my provincial cultures and even my vassals to go heretical.

Would the AI controller of the Pope try and excommunicate heretical people? Or would a crusade be called against heretical rulers otherwise? Historically the Papacy did call for a Crusade against the Cathars of Aquitania. The Cathar Christians had some interesting ideas, such as the equality of the sexes in the eyes of God, and therefore many women held high ecclesial offices such as Prefects within the Cather Christian Church hierarchy, and in Aquitannia society at large. Also, homosexuality was highly tolerated in those regions of Aquitania in which Cather’s enjoyed wide ranching public support... some historians even claim that Cather Christians promoted homosexuality to a degree! Now that's Christianity I can get behind! Loll.

My thoughts are spinning here!!! I wish I could mode events as I have allot of jucie storylines for heretical events!!!

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I've never contemplated actually playing towards a court of heretical people! What would be the result do you think Veld and everyone? Also, do you have those stand alone gay traits still available? And would they too be attracted to a heretical court?

I like the idea of playing a heretical court and promoting my provincial cultures and even my vassals to go heretical.

Would the AI controller of the Pope try and excommunicate heretical people? Or would a crusade be called against heretical rulers otherwise?

A heretic ruler would most likely be excommunicated, because heretical rulers usually have low piety. And low piety makes it easy to become excommunicated.

There won't be a crusade against heretics, since there can only be crusades against pre-determined provinces.

The AI Pope and/or Papal controller won't have a specific strategy to deal with heretic rulers, the CK AI is not capable of such things.

 

[Damocles]

you'll be attacked soon enough if excommunicated.

 

[Drachenfire]

I'm going to have to mode a test to see how it works. Bascially, give a king a bishop or two as his vassels and see if their contrabution to his piety would offset his heretic trait. At what point of low piety does one become excommunicate? Does it have to be a negitive number?

This brings up another point. Apparently there were a few heretical bishops sympathetic to the Cathers in France and the Rhineland.... could bishops become heretical as well? And would they attract other hereitcal but eccelastically trained courtiers? Would the succession of the bishopric allow for it to go to a heretical priest? Likewise, what effects does a heretical province have on a standard Bishop, or visa versa?

hummm....

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I'm going to have to mode a test to see how it works. Bascially, give a king a bishop or two as his vassels and see if their contrabution to his piety would offset his heretic trait.

Only when creating a bishopric you will get piety, you don't get a monthly piety bonus for having bishoprics. If you have negative piety then those bishops will become more disloyal each month. I don't think it matters if those bishops are heretics or not.

At what point of low piety does one become excommunicate? Does it have to be a negitive number?

Depends on the prestige of the Pope. The lower your piety the less prestige it cost to excommunicate you. So if you have negative piety it doesn't cost the Pope prestige at all.

This brings up another point. Apparently there were a few heretical bishops sympathetic to the Cathers in France and the Rhineland.... could bishops become heretical as well?

There can be heretical bishops yes.

And would they attract other hereitcal but eccelastically trained courtiers?

You could possibly make events for that.

Would the succession of the bishopric allow for it to go to a heretical priest?

It can go to a heretical priest but there is no way of guaranteeing that it does. Though a heretical priest usually has low piety so the changes of him becoming a bishop are very low.

Likewise, what effects does a heretical province have on a standard Bishop, or visa versa?

A standard bishop will try to convert the province (make it non-heretical). A heretical bishops most likely increases the odds a bit of a province to become heretical, but it is so rare that I can't remember seeing it, so I don't know if it is true.

 

[gja102]

Oddly enough I recently started a game with this exact same intention - spreading heresy as far as possible.

Becoming heretic is surprisingly easy - it will commonly follow on from the 'sceptical' or 'excommunicated' traits. Good tactics are to church-unfriendly religious law (then tell the pope to get lost when he complains), and promote the 'religious flexibility' advances (this encourages heresy in provinces).

Loyalty problems mean you pretty much have to be prepared for the heretic King to run his kingdom by himself - a large personal demense with few/no vassals (though some friends may stay sympathetic if heavily bribed). The biggest problem is actually in court, as you can't bribe courtiers to like you. My heretic rulers tend to run the government single-handedly too - no court is preferable to a rabidly disloyal one (there are nasty events attached to disloyal advisors, especially the steward - it is more cost effective to remove / assasinate them than have them steal your money). If you end up with no vassals and no court (as I did), then loyalty is no longer an issue!

Once you've established your one-man despotism, the second problem is defending it from agressive neighbours. Fortunately heretic provinces get 10% income boost, which increases manpower for fighting. You will still need an easily defensible region, with lots of rich provinces next to each other to create a powerful personal demense. In my game I chose the island of Sicily for this (hold all 5 provinces and you can drive invaders back into the sea)... though there may be better areas?

 

[Drachenfire]

Oddly enough I recently started a game with this exact same intention - spreading heresy as far as possible.

Becoming heretic is surprisingly easy - it will commonly follow on from the 'sceptical' or 'excommunicated' traits. Good tactics are to church-unfriendly religious law (then tell the pope to get lost when he complains), and promote the 'religious flexibility' advances (this encourages heresy in provinces).

Loyalty problems mean you pretty much have to be prepared for the heretic King to run his kingdom by himself - a large personal demense with few/no vassals (though some friends may stay sympathetic if heavily bribed). The biggest problem is actually in court, as you can't bribe courtiers to like you. My heretic rulers tend to run the government single-handedly too - no court is preferable to a rabidly disloyal one (there are nasty events attached to disloyal advisors, especially the steward - it is more cost effective to remove / assasinate them than have them steal your money). If you end up with no vassals and no court (as I did), then loyalty is no longer an issue!

Once you've established your one-man despotism, the second problem is defending it from agressive neighbours. Fortunately heretic provinces get 10% income boost, which increases manpower for fighting. You will still need an easily defensible region, with lots of rich provinces next to each other to create a powerful personal demense. In my game I chose the island of Sicily for this (hold all 5 provinces and you can drive invaders back into the sea)... though there may be better areas?

Very good advice! But you did not seem to attract other heretics to your court to suppliment the departing courtiers? What of your heirs and family? Did they also flee because of your heresy? It may become unsustainable to play towards a heretical kingdom of you can not also somehow encourage your courtiers to also be heretical with you.

Thank's Veld for your advice above!!!

 

[Diocletian2001]

Creating a Heretical Court

I've never played a heretic ruler, but once, on a whim. I made a heretic diocese bishop. Quite relentlessly, the heretic would convert individual court members, gaining prestige and losing piety while doing so. Entertaining as it was (the heretic was building a real following in the Court), I decided to end the caper by moving someone else in as diocese bishop. But, if you do want to bring your court over to heresy, finding a heretic diocese bishop (should really be called Court Preacher or Chaplain) is a must.

 

[TempestDK]

Very good advice! But you did not seem to attract other heretics to your court to suppliment the departing courtiers? What of your heirs and family? Did they also flee because of your heresy? It may become unsustainable to play towards a heretical kingdom of you can not also somehow encourage your courtiers to also be heretical with you.

Thank's Veld for your advice above!!!

Would it at all be possible to write an event that might either create heretic random courtiers, or make ones that exist more likely to migrate to the court of heretic ruler?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Would it at all be possible to write an event that might either create heretic random courtiers, or make ones that exist more likely to migrate to the court of heretic ruler?

You can't create characters with a heretic trait by event, but it should be possible to make events that will make your courtiers heretics if your ruler is one.

 

[TempestDK]

You can't create characters with a heretic trait by event

Well I guess you could fire two events then ... one that creates the courtier, and a second right after that gives the heretic trait.

This might be good if the court is empty or nearly empty. It would be easy to conceive that the king might promote/attract others that share his viewpoint to his court.

but it should be possible to make events that will make your courtiers heretics if your ruler is one.

This might be better and more fun ... trying to convert your courtiers to your "new" faith ... some might accept the ruler's visions, others run away from the "nut-job"

 

[jordarkelf]

Well I guess you could fire two events then ... one that creates the courtier, and a second right after that gives the heretic trait.

You can't make it fire for a generated character only. Once a character spawns, he is in no way unique... any 'make heretic' event will fire for any character, spawned or not.

Closest thing to what you want is what Veld proposes, an event that makes courtiers heretics if their ruler is one. A basic one is easy to write, but it should have some modifiers to make sure that (for example) zealous characters will not convert, but try to leave the court.

 

[TempestDK]

You can't make it fire for a generated character only. Once a character spawns, he is in no way unique... any 'make heretic' event will fire for any character, spawned or not.

Closest thing to what you want is what Veld proposes, an event that makes courtiers heretics if their ruler is one. A basic one is easy to write, but it should have some modifiers to make sure that (for example) zealous characters will not convert, but try to leave the court.

Maybe a vassal event could be made too, a bit like the current religious conversion events. But also with modifiers and chances that the vassal will refuse and maybe become rebellious or flat out find another liege, more to their liking. Would be nice if they could find a new liege like the player can without having to declare independence first.

This way you could try to convert Europe to an alternative faith ... like a very early Reformation

 

[jordarkelf]

The only real issue with the heretic trait is that it is an inherently negative one in CK, there are many bad things tied to it. If you want to reuse it to represent Hussites, Cathars, etc. with more accuracy, then existing events as well as other traits would need to be revised as well.

Very doable if you have the time though.