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jacobkim80

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Jun 17, 2011
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I am super excited about this game! Wrote this on mobile so please excuse typos and grammatical errors.

What continues to draw me into CK and EU is the incredible fidelity to history. I have had extended conversations with Romanians, Southern Italians and Indians because of the history I have interactively learned through my many play hours. My concerns are how will Stellaris be different from every other 4X space game? If Stellaris is just CK in space without the historical context, would I play 1200 hours?

My suggestion is to create a living canonical history based on active player input. The specific mechanisms can be really anything but my suggestion is:

1. 30 year game periods are submitted monthly to Paradox Interactive and an algorithm would calculate 10 years of canonical history. Games have to be hardcore with perhaps a weighting bonus for multiplayer (MP is horrid. I have ideas for MP improvement but that is for another post). For example, 5000 scenarios of Game Year 10 to 40 are submitted in the first month and 70% of them have the Empire of Cats invading the Dog Federation using the CB of “Dog eats Cat’s Food” in which 60% of the time the Dog Federation loses most of its capital ships but are able to capture Cat World forcing the Cat Empress to sue for peace. The events would canonically transpire in Game Year 10 to 20 and Game Year 20 act as the starting point for the next month. The following month’s scenarios would use Game Year 20 to 50 to calculate the events of Game Year 20 to 30.

2. As time progresses, each 10 year period would be saved as a new bookmark (the equivalent of “Stamford Bridge” in CK2) in the main game so people have the freedom to replay the canonical history going back to the very beginning of exploration.

3.Pre-launch, beta players could help create the first 50 or 100 years so that there is some history when the game goes gold. I believe Paradox has a publishing business. To create synergy across their businesses, I suggest adding depth to the canonical timeline Paradox Interactive by inviting players to submit short stories to accompany each new 10 year period with a prize of the best stories being published with writers receiving a small royalty. The best monthly story could receive a larger cash prize.

Just some ideas I've had after playing Paradox Interactive games over the years.
 
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I was just imagining something like:
In the Grimdark Future, the Galactic Empire is in a constant struggle with the United Federation of Planets, but one neutral Firefly-class smuggling ship, lead by the ever brave Cpt. Jack O'neill will save the day using sarcasm and paper clips! But he's also being hunted down by the famed bounty hunter, Spike Spiegel, and his 'fierce' friends. Also Farscape's involved in this universe too, somewhere... whatever...
 
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I was just imagining something like:
In the Grimdark Future, the Galactic Empire is in a constant struggle with the United Federation of Planets, but one neutral Firefly-class smuggling ship, lead by the ever brave Cpt. Jack O'neill will save the day using sarcasm and paper clips! But he's also being hunted down by the famed bounty hunter, Spike Spiegel, and his 'fierce' friends. Also Farscape's involved in this universe too, somewhere... whatever...
Everything is derivative?
 
Well I just was making a joke about a shared universe...
Ahh I see. Yeah I could see it devolving into the lowest common denominator. Assuming the starting shared story evolves from real game play of beta players and developers, it doesn't necessarily have to be derivative.

It would be a living evolving shared story. But one that people can choose to not participate in. Starting one's own story is definitely possible.

Most 4X games are sterile. There isn't a story that really hooks people. This was just an idea to try to avoid the lack of life in pretty much every 4X game I've played.
 
I'm interested in something like this only for the sake of asymmetric starts, Byzantines in space (where you restore a crumbling empire to its former glory), and Mongols in space (where you sweep across an already established galaxy with an unstoppable destructive force). I'm sure Pdox can come up with its own faux history.
 
I'm interested in something like this only for the sake of asymmetric starts, Byzantines in space (where you restore a crumbling empire to its former glory), and Mongols in space (where you sweep across an already established galaxy with an unstoppable destructive force). I'm sure Pdox can come up with its own faux history.
That's true. It could work for specific periods.

Faux history is a little more difficult than people realize. Dig into the lore of pretty much every IP that isn't historical, and it is just space Normans or the taifa pirates or most commonly English history with new foreign sounding names.
 
Each new game the Galaxy, it's history and every races history are different. There can simply be no canon

I disagree. There can be a canonical history. It just needs to be created. My guess is that you are saying that isn't the point of stellaris. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you are saying the point is that I can create my own galaxy and play in it. I can create my own history. Sure I am not saying you can't do that. Of course you can and it sounds great to do so but after a while my guess is that it will become boring for many people because we've all done it many many times with the many many clones of master of orion. Why not just replay any of the previous MOO clones? Is it because the game dynamics is really addictive? Game dynamics across all IP is pretty much the same within a genre. Some minor tweaks within the genre and even minor tweaks are often called "game changing". Is Stellaris meant to be just another unsuccessful master of orion clone with victoria style pops and ck type factions and eu nation dyanmics and some ck2 style story? That sounds like a game I would spend 30 hours playing and maybe buy a dlc.

Building a new IP is very hard and I believe good game dynamics is important but it is also needs a great context and story. StarCraft had phenomenal game dynamics. But was the game play much different than command & conquer? Not really. StarCraft was more balanced, had better multiplayer and the social aspect was better. But Blizzard also invested in building a decent context because it is important. Game dynamics is important but so is multiplayer (paradox weakness) and so is the context.

The crux of my idea is rather than trying to build an extensive faux history internally, let it be player driven. Of course everyone doesn't have to play in the same shared story. You can create your own galaxy creating your own story. What I am essentially saying in the multiverse of all possible stellaris scenarios, let there be a canonical shared story that is player driven. The specific example of how that be done in the original post may not be palatable but there are many other ways to incorporating player input into a canonical story.

If you've ever played master of Orion or galactic civilizations or sword of the stars or space empires or sins of a solar empire, how long on average do you play them before moving on? I would guess 50 hours would cover most people with the expected value being like 30 hours. There is always the exception. DLC another 20. The draw of those games was variable star systems and opponents but after a while it gets boring. Gameplay gets stale. AI is easy to beat. How does one increase the replayability of a game? By having an awesome context that makes people keep wanting to come back and/or having great social experience and/or strong multiplayer. How does one create an addictive context? Investing internal resources or having it player driven. Algorithmic story telling is OK but stellaris won't have real history to create natural depth.

Stellaris is going to be procedural, but unless it is trying to be like no man's sky with intelligent aliens you can make treaties with, it is going to be more like master of orion. How is stellaris going to be any different than a mish mash of Victoria, EU, ck and hoi but with a space themed skin? It probably won't. It will probably be very similar to Victoria in space with ck factions. How does paradox interactive get away with essentially making EU, EU with family dynamics (ck), EU with pops (victoria), EU but world war ii (hearts of iron), eu before ck (rome)? Because we all love replaying history. History is the ultimate context. But Stellaris won't have this context to draw from.

Dont get me wrong. Game dyanmics is very important. Rome is awful. Sengoku is too small. Victoria is too complicated. EU and CK game play gets it just about right. The unique game dynamics of ck2 is great but can you imagine a clone hitting the achievement of the average play time of 100 hours for 1 million players if it wasn't based on history? I can't. And probably most people can't because the video game industry is all about copying each other as closely as possible without infringing on copyright and as far as I know there isn't a clone of ck around that has succeeded.

Ck2 almost never got made because the original ck bombed. If I remember correctly, Paradox put up a Facebook post to see if there was enough interest in making ck2 but the tone was like well prove us wrong fans.

Ck2 and EU are phenomenal because it has history to bring players back. Stellaris won't have that advantage and to succeed, so called game changing game dynamics or graphics just won't be enough. People don't repeatedly play games for graphics. Graphics focused games are the worst. People here sound like you all are saying what we've been longing for is ck + eu + victoria in space! I think ck/EU/Victoria without a historical context and a space theme will at least break even but most people won't be playing it beyond a year without a great context unless stellaris is paradox's first successful multiplayer game of this style.
 
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I think the randomly-generated races and a lack of scripted lore is a good design decision by Paradox. Sure, a well-written setting can help these kinds of games - that's why everyone still loves to quote Alpha Centauri after all these years. However, a bland, derivative lore is actively worse than no lore at all. I stopped playing Galactic Civilizations because I found the writing to be terrible and the standard races to be tiring knock-offs.

Ultimately I want the interesting stuff to happen in the game and not the backstory!
 
I stopped playing Galactic Civilizations because I found the writing to be terrible and the standard races to be tiring knock-offs.

Ultimately I want the interesting stuff to happen in the game and not the backstory!
Why didn't you just create your own races? Was one of the best parts of Galciv! :D
AD1DD832EE54FD37B775E714D362025DDED193AD

Yes, these are all derivative, but that's not the point!
 
I think the randomly-generated races and a lack of scripted lore is a good design decision by Paradox. Sure, a well-written setting can help these kinds of games - that's why everyone still loves to quote Alpha Centauri after all these years. However, a bland, derivative lore is actively worse than no lore at all. I stopped playing Galactic Civilizations because I found the writing to be terrible and the standard races to be tiring knock-offs.

Ultimately I want the interesting stuff to happen in the game and not the backstory!

Sure bland writing is bad. I haven't encountered good algorithmic writing yet. News and jokes are approaching it. I think someone at IBM was working on adapting Watson for jokes. I believe the core Stellaris feature od emergent storytelling in will be similar to what you dislike about Galactic civilizations. You might not like that.

I dont think i am trying to suggest that. What I suggested is player driven context and history. Not writing per se. Maybe a subtle difference but one I believe is essential. I personally have no problem with derivative work if it is good. Isn't that the point of all the excitement over mods? Pretty much everything is derivative. When people called Newton revolutionary I think he responded by saying he only stood on the shoulders of giants. I read a clever piece how everything is derivative of Gilgamesh.

When you say loreless and randomly generated races that alone sounds blandly derivative to me. Thats been done over and over. What would you consider to be revolutionary about Stellaris? I think there are great features because I believe in paradox interactive to develop a great game. I just don't think randomly generated loreless will be very different from every other 4X game.
 
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When you say loreless and randomly generated races that sounds blandly derivative to me. Thats been done over and over. What would you consider to be revolutionary about Stellaris?

I'm not aware of any 4x games that offer unique races every time you play. Which ones do that?

Anyway, from what I can gather, the difference is between the GalCiv approach of presenting you with the backstory of "Race X used to have Race Y enslaved" or "Race Z suffered an AI uprising" and then starts you in the usual symmetrical 4x setup... or the Stellaris approach of actually letting you play through the enslavement and AI uprisings as and when they happen in the context of the individual game.
 
I'm not aware of any 4x games that offer unique races every time you play. Which ones do that?

Anyway, from what I can gather, the difference is between the GalCiv approach of presenting you with the backstory of "Race X used to have Race Y enslaved" or "Race Z suffered an AI uprising" and then starts you in the usual symmetrical 4x setup... or the Stellaris approach of actually letting you play through the enslavement and AI uprisings as and when they happen in the context of the individual game.

Endless space comes to mind but there are a number of games where races are completely customizable. You can choose random traits and play.

The criticism sounds like the first galciv. Galciv isn't my favorite either but I believe galciv ii and iii have more emergent storytelling more in line with what you describe stellaris. I vaguely remember encountering a planet with primitive people and having the option to enslave them or not. Even king of dragon pass had elements like that. So this sounds derivative to me but not necessarily bland. Sounds like we need more of emergent storytelling. But then again I think being derivative isn't necessarily bad if it is well done. Even my idea is derivative. I've always wanted a single player strategy version of eve online which to me is the gold standard for space games. Eve online is purely player driven.

Again not saying people can't play any way they want to play. I think starting with loreless fresh is great and everyone should do that every once in a while. Personally, I think people would soon bore of that unless game dynamics is truly revolutionary. I would love to see a player driven canonical history. Not sure why people think that is mutually exclusive.
 
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Why didn't you just create your own races? Was one of the best parts of Galciv! :D
AD1DD832EE54FD37B775E714D362025DDED193AD

Yes, these are all derivative, but that's not the point!

okay if someone can mod in a goa'uld vs covenant vs empire scenario in stellaris i'd crap my pants instantly.
 
okay if someone can mod in a goa'uld vs covenant vs empire scenario in stellaris i'd crap my pants instantly.
I just want to point out that the Covenant did fight the Goa'uld and the Empire in that game. It was fun to watch.