Crown Prince of [Insert Kingdom]

[LordofSaxony]

I'm hoping for CK2 that it will label the Princes and Princesses of a kingdom as such. Basically, it would be broken down into the Crown Prince, Prince, and of course the female counterparts. I think it would add a bit more flair to the game, and although there were countries out there that didn't use the term Prince from what I recall, it could just be viewed as a 'generic' term for the positions.

Crown Prince(ss) - The heir apparent.
Prince(ss) - The brothers and sisters of the heir apparent.

Example,

King Richard is married to Queen Mary, they have three children, Louie, Anna, and Margaret. Louie is the heir apparent, the one that will have the throne next, so he's the Crown Prince, while Anna and Margaret are regarded as just Princesses. If Louie dies, and the parents have no more children, and depending on the inheritance right, the eldest daughter, Anne, may become the Crown Princess and heir to the throne.

I know it's pretty simple, and it could possibly be in the works already (they may have mentioned it, and I may have missed it), but it would be a nice little addition to have.

 

[Calgacus]

We should avoid stuff this technical and culturally specific. "Crown prince" is a bit anachronistic and deterministic too, for a game starting 1066 (they do start using the term rex designatus though soon after the beginning of the game in France).

Agree with 'Prince' though. It would be fun and useful to mark the heirs in this or some similar way (though "Prince" could be problematic if used for Russian dukes).

 

[LordofSaxony]

We should avoid stuff this technical and culturally specific. "Crown prince" is a bit anachronistic and deterministic too, for a game starting 1066 (they do start using the term rex designatus though soon after the beginning of the game in France).

Agree with 'Prince' though. It would be fun and useful to mark the heirs in this or some similar way (though "Prince" could be problematic if used for Russian dukes).

If they want to use all the cultural names for Prince/Princess, then more power to them. I think, from our standpoint as a game written in English, that most people would know what a Prince/Princess is, and that's why I think even if used generically would be appropriate. The reason why I liked having the idea of "Crown Prince" and "Crown Princess" is so a person - without a doubt - would understand who the next in line to the throne is, which is pretty important since we can change the inheritance laws.

 

[Caranorn]

The problem I see is that the notion of crown prince or even prince/princess is only relevant for the king tier and not to the other two tiers of duke and count. Even then, a king's heir would be more likely to be known by his actual title(s) (duke of ...) than some generic term like prince...

 

[LordofSaxony]

The problem I see is that the notion of crown prince or even prince/princess is only relevant for the king tier and not to the other two tiers of duke and count. Even then, a king's heir would be more likely to be known by his actual title(s) (duke of ...) than some generic term like prince...

Nope, it wouldn't be relevant for Dukes, Counts, or Barons. Just the royal line. The Prince/Princess can still have "Duke of..." but instead would be named something like.. Prince Henry, Duke of Lancaster, or Princess Anne, Countess of Kent.

 

[Stratagyfan101]

would be nice if it was like the Emperor trait and just add a little prestige per year. That way the new King of England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Aragon, Burgundy, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Norway, Hungary, Bohemia and Poland doesn't become king with 5 prestige after being crowned King of Aragon 10 years prior.

 

[Davisx3m]

Isabelle Duchess of Apulia.... I like it.

But when it's a county or Dukedom will it be Crown Duke? Crown Count? xD

 

[A_Dane]

How many countries, did actually have a crown prince?

I know that kings could try and influence it, but atleast here in Denmark, they quite often ran into problems with the nobility..

 

[trajan]

Perhaps "heir apparent" would be generic enough to cover all cases.

 

[LordofSaxony]

Isabelle Duchess of Apulia.... I like it.

But when it's a county or Dukedom will it be Crown Duke? Crown Count? xD

If the highest ruler is a Count or Duke (doesn't have a King), this probably wouldn't apply. Unless, they have something like Arch-Duke or Grand-Duke or something.

How many countries, did actually have a crown prince?

I know that kings could try and influence it, but atleast here in Denmark, they quite often ran into problems with the nobility..

Not sure, but I was thinking more so in terms of gameplay reasons, making it easier for people to see who exactly the next heirs to the throne are.

Perhaps "heir apparent" would be generic enough to cover all cases.

Since I have no idea how they are doing the GUI, and I'm only going with what they did with CK1, where would that information be listed exactly? I was thinking like in CK1 where it shows your name, what other titles you have, your traits and such, that they could just slide "Prince" in there since it's short. I suppose they could do it with just an icon to represent the heir apparent. Although, I would prefer the actual word Prince/Princess, but if they want to add an icon too I'm fine with it.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Anglo-Saxon England had "Aethelings" which functioned rather like Crown Princes, in that the title inferred some sort of "kingship-worthiness." This was the title that all royal princes were known by, and it persisted into Norman England for several generations.

I think having princes and princesses is a good idea, but crown princes might be a little difficult to implement, and they'd only be applicable for kingdoms with primogeniture anyway.

 

[unmerged(102980)]

where would that information be listed exactly? I was thinking like in CK1 where it shows your name, what other titles you have, your traits and such, that they could just slide "Prince" in there since it's short. I suppose they could do it with just an icon to represent the heir apparent. Although, I would prefer the actual word Prince/Princess, but if they want to add an icon too I'm fine with it.

What about some sort of visual representation in the heir apparent's picture? In CK the visual representation of King, Duke, Count was clear from their border and I think you could do something similar with the heir apparent. That way you could have a culturally specific name if relevant, but also have an instantly understandable visual signal that the character is the heir apparent.

I don't know if a border or some change to the picture is the best way to go, but I think if there was some mark that every heir apparent had it would easily mark them out.

 

[Nodscouterr]

Why not just ''Heir''? Being a Arab king in the middle of the Arabian Peninsula it would kinda break the atmosphere to have a ''Crown Prince''.

 

[geiseric]

Why not just ''Heir''? Being a Arab king in the middle of the Arabian Peninsula it would kinda break the atmosphere to have a ''Crown Prince''.

Well your not supposed to play as the arabs, so thats kinda of a bad example.

 

[Woody Man]

At least in English terms, we only ever had Prince of Wales as a title, the other sons of Kings could be referred to indirectly as Princes, but technically so could other titled nobility f.e Princes of the Realm. It was far more common to refer to their actual titles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Clarence etc.

 

[Camara]

I think heir apparent is just fine. Otherwise you could include e.g. the title "infante" for prince's brothers and sisters in iberian christian countries, etc, and I think it is not necessary.

 

[monsterfurby]

It would be nice to have secondary (i.e. non province-bound) titles in a moddable file. This way, you could just have things like:

is_heir=true
culture_group=western

-> add the title "Heir Apparent" or something

This is not supposed to be the actual format, just a hint at what I'm thinking of. Maybe one could have a "precedence" rating that determines which of the titles is named first, with all of the others just counted on the character sheet.

Then again, these might just be added as traits anyway.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I don't see the problem with having princes and princesses. CK1 already fudges history to make everybody fit into the neat cookie cutter of kings, dukes and counts. So why not make the king's children princes and princesses too? And while we're at it, why not make the king's wife a queen? Under primogeniture, the firstborn son could have a little added token on his profile indicating that he's next in line for the throne.

You know... under some of the other succession systems, I'd like to be able to directly designate an heir: such things happened all the time. Yes, I think I'd like to be able to take a more direct role in royal politics than was allowed in CK1.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

You know... under some of the other succession systems, I'd like to be able to directly designate an heir: such things happened all the time.

Can you name some examples then ?

 

[The Kingmaker]

Can you name some examples then ?

For starters, William the Bastard/Conqueror - he left the Kingdom of England to William Rufus and the Duchy of Normandy to Robert Curthose, rather than giving it all to Robert, the eldest son.

Bohemond of Taranto was actually not illegitimate as portrayed in CK -- Robert Guiscard split his lands between his two sons, with Roger Borsa getting the Italian lands and Bohemond getting the Adriatic possessions.

Semi-elective monarchies like Anglo-Saxon England, Norway and Denmark had kings who would designate one of their sons as their heir, but the national councils had to give the go ahead. Cnut the Great designated his younger son Harthacnut as heir to both England and Denmark, but the English council chose the elder son Harold Harefoot instead, which led to some messy succession issues with one son taking England and the other Denmark. Harthacnut claimed to reign in England as well, but was not accepted as king until after his brother was dead.

When Baldwin I of Jerusalem died, the nobles offered the crown to his distant kinsman Baldwin II, despite an offer already having been sent to Baldwin's brother Eustace, as primogeniture dictated.

Henry I of England designated his daughter Maud as his heir, only for a civil war to begin when his nephew Stephen seized the crown. King Stephen then disinherited his eldest son William as part of his treaty with Maud, instead making her son Henry II his heir. King Charles VI of France did a similar thing, choosing Henry V of England over his own son the Dauphin as part of a treaty.

Granted these last two examples were under duress, my point is that matters of succession were never as cut and dry as the game makes it seem at times.

By the way, while we're at it, what about Kings jure uxoris? About half of all of the Kings of Jerusalem ruled by right of their marriages to the royal heiress, most notably Guy de Lusignan from his marriage to Sibylla.