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Crusader kings or victoria?

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Jarkko Suvinen said:
Crap Engine? Hmmm... The AI is very good compared to EU2, event system is way superior. The AI is however not creative, but that's how it is in every game I've seen. With the AI running thousands of characters, SP soon became dull to me (the AI doesn't actually have any tricks up its sleeve, but then again that is how every AI I've seen so far is), but in MP there are humans who have more than enough of (dirty) tricks :)

I very heartily recommend you to try CK MP, the leap from CK SP to CK MP is way bigger than from EU2 SP to EU2 MP. CK is, IMO, intended for MP, and SP is there just so that you can learn the basics of the system :)
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The system was created by two producers and isn't very coherent. In my experiences with CK, plagues, AI spam, event spam (I don't agree with you about those events. I'm not big on having 1 every 10 seconds), vassal system that's really clunky. That cannot be alleviated by MP. Also I'm not big on the idea that if one nation comes in and kills all your troops, you'll be left helpless if another nation decides to do the same afterwards. Medieval warfare wasn't big on casualties, CK doesn't show that.
 
Bocaj said:
The system was created by two producers and isn't very coherent. In my experiences with CK, plagues, AI spam, event spam (I don't agree with you about those events. I'm not big on having 1 every 10 seconds), vassal system that's really clunky. That cannot be alleviated by MP. Also I'm not big on the idea that if one nation comes in and kills all your troops, you'll be left helpless if another nation decides to do the same afterwards. Medieval warfare wasn't big on casualties, CK doesn't show that.
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How much did you say you have played the game lately? ;)

AI spam was a "feature" of the earlier patches. Not so anymore.

Event spam... ummm... there are times when you get several events in a relatively short time span (just like you do in EU2 too), but on the average they don't happen too often. Depends on the game speed of course, if you run on extremely fast in SP you'll get lots of events, but MP is run at Below Normal or Slow (during wars).

Combat losses are *minimal* compared to attritional losses, I think that is quite well modeled in CK :) He who lumps his armies together in an attempt to overrun the opposition is looking for a disaster. And if you kill all your armies in EU2 (or any other strategic wargame) against one opponent, does that somehow prevent your other opponents to then stomp you?

Vassal system clunky... I don't honestly understand that. It almost sounds like you are angry you can't directly control all the actions of the vassals like in EU2... errr.... WAIT!.... in EU2 you can't even rise your vassals troops to figt for you... So clunky = you can use your vassals forces?
 
balinus said:
I wish I could try it! I need a new computer before though. :(
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Byakhiam the CK Beta demi-mod runs CK on a 600 MHz (IIRC) machine. Even in MP :)
 
Jarkko Suvinen said:
How much did you say you have played the game lately? ;)
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I played right up to the public beta, and by talking to people since, doesn't seem like it's changed enough for me to give it another go.

AI spam was a "feature" of the earlier patches. Not so anymore.
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Perhaps I am just old-school and prefer games with as little AI as possible, because our opinions of 'AI spam' seem to differ.

Event spam... ummm... there are times when you get several events in a relatively short time span (just like you do in EU2 too), but on the average they don't happen too often. Depends on the game speed of course, if you run on extremely fast in SP you'll get lots of events, but MP is run at Below Normal or Slow (during wars).
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You're right in that I would play on rather fast speeds (for sheer lack of anything to do). Still, that events are needed for almost anything to happen in CK is something I'm not big on. Still, I seem to remember having a hell of a lot of events in CK even on the slower speeds which is not my cup of tea.

Combat losses are *minimal* compared to attritional losses, I think that is quite well modeled in CK :) He who lumps his armies together in an attempt to overrun the opposition is looking for a disaster. And if you kill all your armies in EU2 (or any other strategic wargame) against one opponent, does that somehow prevent your other opponents to then stomp you?
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You're right. ATTRITION losses are far too high also. Better?

Vassal system clunky... I don't honestly understand that. It almost sounds like you are angry you can't directly control all the actions of the vassals like in EU2... errr.... WAIT!.... in EU2 you can't even rise your vassals troops to figt for you... So clunky = you can use your vassals forces?
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All I have to say to this is disintegrating kingdoms due to AI demanding vassals' titles. Even when I have played a kingdom, counts have often seceeded away from me, and I have no cb to get them back. The result is a very holey empire despite your best efforts. The system might work if AI was taken out of the equation....
 
Bocaj said:
I played right up to the public beta, and by talking to people since, doesn't seem like it's changed enough for me to give it another go.
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Well, those people have lied to you :)

AI counts/dukes going independent are very likely to come back pretty soon if they are in your Kingdoms lands. AI spamming does not happen in betas. Play MP if you want action (SP, in any game, is dull beyond belief). ATTRITION losses reflect not deaths etc (only), but the fact "soldiers" leaving the army on their own (and that, for sure, did happen A LOT in this time period).

All I can say, try the beta in MP. It is a VERY different experience than pre-beta SP. I don't know how often you use 1.04 EU2 SP gameplay as an example when you compare any game to EU2, but that is what you are doing here :) The discussion is after all of the current state of CK MP, and how that compares to EU2 MP :)
 
Jarkko Suvinen said:
AI counts/dukes going independent are very likely to come back pretty soon if they are in your Kingdoms lands. AI spamming does not happen in betas. Play MP if you want action (SP, in any game, is dull beyond belief). ATTRITION losses reflect not deaths etc (only), but the fact "soldiers" leaving the army on their own (and that, for sure, did happen A LOT in this time period).
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But, if they desert, then they haven't died, so could still really be conscripted for next time.... :D
 
Bocaj said:
But, if they desert, then they haven't died, so could still really be conscripted for next time.... :D
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They can, as soon as they walk home :) You do know the regiments are regenerating while on duty, so even if a regiment is "wiped out" in far-away lands it can usually/often be raised immediatly again. Some of them surely are new conscripts, but I have always tought it also represent the wounded and "stragglers" becoming available for conscription again :)
 
Jarkko Suvinen said:
They can, as soon as they walk home :) You do know the regiments are regenerating while on duty, so even if a regiment is "wiped out" in far-away lands it can usually/often be raised immediatly again. Some of them surely are new conscripts, but I have always tought it also represent the wounded and "stragglers" becoming available for conscription again :)
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Very, very slowly.... It's a good idea but the fine details don't work quite as well as they could. We are still talking about a game right, not rl? :)
 
Bocaj said:
Very, very slowly.... It's a good idea but the fine details don't work quite as well as they could. We are still talking about a game right, not rl? :)
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I don't know. Honestly, your comments sound like you haven't played the game since 1.04 came out, and there has been about a dozen patches since that ;)
 
Jarkko Suvinen said:
I don't know. Honestly, your comments sound like you haven't played the game since 1.04 came out, and there has been about a dozen patches since that ;)
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1.04 Betas crash way too often on my computer. :( As far as mechanics can be adjusted without major .EXE changes or no .EXE changes at all (such as with event and scenario scripting), CK is much better now than earlier. However, in my opinion a few basic areas are still funamentally flawed, not in the gameplay department, but rather in the user interface and AI. Yes, kingdoms don't implode as much as they used to but that's because AI has been restrained through somewhat rough rules instead of having been programmed any better. User interface when managing huge amounts of courtiers is still horrible. These issus are so fundamental though so we'll have to see about them in CK2. (Something I do hope for.)
 
Chaingun said:
However, in my opinion a few basic areas are still funamentally flawed, not in the gameplay department, but rather in the user interface and AI.
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Yes, the interface could be much better. Ledgers are missing, most I miss the the possibility to organise courtiers according to their attributes (like sex, age, Steawardship) or traits.

I don't know much about how to program an AI (I know basically nothing of programming), but I have been in the impression the AI of any given game go according to the following: If A happens do B, unless C is also in effect and a random number is less than 50%, in which case do D. So "rough rules" are what AI is about, right? :confused:
 
I was quite disappointed with both of them, to be perfectly honest.

Granted, CK is set in a time which I have little interest for, and what killed Vicky was the insane amount of micromanagement and IIRC the lacking stability of MP.

I guess I'll just crawl back under my rock now. :p
 
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