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Originally posted by Carolus Rex
*nitpick*

EU1,2, HoI, CK and Svea Rike3(all Pdox Games) aren't RTS'. They're Continuous Time Tactic. ;) Because of the pause feature.

*nitpick*
Actually, they're continuous time strategy games as opposed to the typical turn-based strategy games. They're not tactical because they cover a much large scale, and they're not real-time because then it would take 400 years to finish an EU II grand campaign. ;)
 
Originally posted by Avenger

Using your criteria, Checkers and Chess are identicle. Both games start with 24 pieces. The board is the same in both games. You move one piece at a time. The differences are very minor. Checkers must, of course, be equally challenging because sometimes a single piece can move more than once in a turn - both backwards and forwards.

Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I play the Strat portion of STW and it feels like RISK. It doesn't feel fun. It doesn't even feel challenging. It feels simplistic. Then I play the Tactical portion of STW and I am overwhelmed. It feels the same as Age of Empires. It doesn't look the same, but I feel no rush if I win. I feel exhausted from clicking my units and jumping all over the battlefield.

Much of it is personal preference, I admit. I enjoy plotting and planning, sometimes for hours. I hate being rushed. Quick decisions are never the best decisions. The politics of Crusader Kings intrigues me. I get the impression that the game will be like EU2 with much less combat and much more diplomacy. Intrigues, Religion, Machivellian backstabbing. I can hardly wait.

--Avenger

First off, let me say I am a big EU fan, and am looking forward to CK.

That said, frankly, I'm surprised at some of the ignorance of the CK/EU crowd. The comments above show the poster knows very little about MTW and is letting their Shogun experience substitue for hard facts. The games (STW and MTW) are just not the same when it comes to the strategic portion.

As a previous poster noted with a list of new elements for MTW, the strat portion of the game is significantly changed. I agree that Shogun's strat portion was simplistic - basically all you did was build structures, the diplomacy was very limited, there was no tech tree, not much to the economics of the game, there was a limited religion component with Christianity vs. Buddhism. But this game isn't Shogun :)

However, MTW will not be nearly as simplistic as Shogun was strategically. The map still looks the same but that is about it. Diplomacy will be very much deeper, with royal marriages, trade, alliances, etc. playing a much deeper role. Crusades and how they work will be totally different than anything in Shogun - it will be interesting to see if CK's handling of them is compared with MTW. The interplay of Catholicsm, Orthodoxy, and Islam will also be important as you can use missionaries to increase your religion, support the Pope, etc.. There will be a extensive tech tree. There will also be naval combat and trade, something ignored by Shogun. And no, MTW will not be about conquering the world as someone ignorantly alleged. From what I heard and seen in some previews, it most likely cannot be done. Instead, the game uses "Glorious Achievements" which more fits the times - as rulers were often interested in things other than just conquest - trade, culture, religion, etc and you receive points for achieving them. Rulers/generals/leaders now have an RPG aspect - rated on military, how much they are loved/hated/feared by their populace, their governing skills, etc.. There are random events also that impact the game.

Fact is the strategic gameplay of MTW is much deeper than that of Shogun. There's no need to run down MTW in order to build up CK. I think both will be excellent games in their own right.

Grifman
 
Originally posted by Chef Boyard


I thought this would get more attention, and bring more people into the discussion. There aren't that many people who regularly haunt this forum, and my guess is those who do will read this thread. My last thread was locked, anyway, because "the topic has already been discussed." Its a win-win situation for the community : if the thread is locked, at least we know what is acceptable and what isn't. If the thread isn't locked, its a credit to the community to be frank and honest about how well CK stacks up against the market.


The above is *not* a good reason for posting as you did.
Your other thread was correctly locked as it had been discussed before and a conclusion reached. They was nothing more to be added.
The members here know what is acceptable and what isnt - they have read the rules and comply with them. They are here:-

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17326

I strongly suggest that you read them yourself.
If you have a problem with a Moderators action then PM them in the first instance. If the matter isnt resolved to your satisfaction then PM myself or BiB. *Never* critisise a Moderators decision on the public forums.
This is the second and last time that I warn you.

Thank you for your attention.
 
Originally posted by Uglyduck


The above is *not* a good reason for posting as you did.
Your other thread was correctly locked as it had been discussed before and a conclusion reached. They was nothing more to be added.
The members here know what is acceptable and what isnt - they have read the rules and comply with them. They are here:-

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17326

I strongly suggest that you read them yourself.
If you have a problem with a Moderators action then PM them in the first instance. If the matter isnt resolved to your satisfaction then PM myself or BiB. *Never* critisise a Moderators decision on the public forums.
This is the second and last time that I warn you.

Thank you for your attention.

1. Nothing I said was a direct public criticism of the moderators. It was a sarcastic treatment of their prior decision to lock a thread in which I suggested that the time scope of CK be expanded. The decision was apparently based on the idea that this suggestion or topic had already been discussed.

2. I've read all 17 rules about posting, they don't say anything about :

a) discussing the same subject more than once, or in a different thread, or

b) publicly criticising moderators for their decision to lock a thread.

However, warning noted.
 
Originally posted by Grifman


First off, let me say I am a big EU fan, and am looking forward to CK.

That said, frankly, I'm surprised at some of the ignorance of the CK/EU crowd. The comments above show the poster knows very little about MTW and is letting their Shogun experience substitue for hard facts. The games (STW and MTW) are just not the same when it comes to the strategic portion.

Fact is the strategic gameplay of MTW is much deeper than that of Shogun. There's no need to run down MTW in order to build up CK. I think both will be excellent games in their own right.

Grifman

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the strat depth of both Shogun and the upcoming (due Sept 2002) MTW has been snobbishly overlooked. I also plan to buy both games. I would, however, like to see an expanded time frame for CK, which I think could be easily done with the EU engine. Expanding the time frame of MTW is NOT easily done precisely because of the detailed tactical engine and model (far more laborious and costly).

From what I know of Shogun, and what I've read about MTW (I've also played the MTW demo), I feel that what I am going to get with both games is a slightly different treatment of both subjects, but with much greater tactical detail in MTW. I don't like the battle resolution in EU. I would like to fight tactical battles in EU, I can't. ALMOST, but not quite everything, I can do in EU I can also do in MTW, and vice versa. The lack of tactical control in EU however, is very frustrating from time to time, particularly when you have a very large army that loses to a very small army.

As to Avenger's continuing comments about his "frustration" at the tactical engine of Shogun, all I can say is summed up by the words of Sun Tzu : "Every battle is won before it's ever fought". If you were overwhelmed and constantly losing the tactical battles its because you did not take the time to insure that you had a sufficient number and quality of troops engaging in the battle prior to your decision to commit them. No one is rushing you at the STW strat level, you can build and plan and improve, make alliances, stab allies in the back, even assassinate them if you build the right units and take the time to do it. When was the last time you had the opportunity to assassinate an enemy in EU? Did assassination occur historically, you betcha.
 
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I haven't played, STW, so I won't go into specifics comparing it with EU. However, let's look at Chef Boyard's original argument...

Originally posted by Chef Boyard
Therefore, CK must offer something more than MTW does, at least in those aspects where it can. The timeframe is one. If CK timeframe extends from around 650-700 to 1419, it will offer much more in historical scope than MTW does.

There are a few problems with this

1) You're assuming people will buy one or the other, based on determining which one is a better game, as if somehow computer games are like cars where a person will choose one over the other. This is not generally the way computer games are bought. If you are an RTS fan (as I am to an extent), you don't necessarily choose between the current Blizzard/Westwood/Microsoft offering, instead you look at each one independently, decide whether it is a good game or not from reviews/friends/etc. and then probably buy more than one. You will probably play them longer this way as well, since, like shoes, if you alternate they last longer. Perhaps you don't buy computer games like this, but I do, and I suspect most people do as well.

2) After assuming that they will be in direct competition, you assumed that extending the time frame of CK will make it a better game. A game that covers as long a period of time as CK does, a level of abstraction is necessary, as it was in EU/EU2. CK is a game whose main selling point (I assume) will be its historiocity (if "historiocity" is even a word), and by extending the time frame you will inherently require more abstraction, making closer to the Civilzation series (which I do like, but is the epitome of abstraction, never quite portraying the epochs accurately). It is the equivalent of saying HOI will be a better game if it covers 1914-1991 instead of 1936-1941 because it will "offer more." As it stands right now, CK will have quite bit of abstraction, specifically relating to the heraldry bit, as for the sake of gameplay it assumes heraldry was fully developed and its rules fixed in 1066, which was not the case at all. Extending CK backwards towards 650-700 will force too many abstractions to allow it to keep its main selling point.

3) You've also assumed much about the similarities between MTW and CK. From how you've described MTW, it seems like it is primarily a war-sim, with its main focus on conquest. CK, from its descriptions, is not primarily a game of conquest. The stated goal for the player is to acquire prestige. You said/quoted that each of the 12 factions will have its unique "potential for European dominance", which implies that European diminance is the logical goal of the game, which (in addition to being unhistorical both by virtue the fact that it a)didn't happen and b) couldn't have, given the structure of the mideival world) is not the goal of CK. So while the features may look similar, the games are geared differently, and will so appeal to different groups of people (another reason that they are not necessarily in competition).


Arguing over which is a better game is a perfectly OK thing to do, but suggesting that CK make changes that will most probably result in a worse game because it is somehow threatened by MTW isn't the best way to argue the point. If you genuinely think extending the timeframe will improve the game, tell us why, and (in addition to giving us something to talk about) would be a much better way to argue your point.
 
Originally posted by pavlovs_dog
I haven't played, STW, so I won't go into specifics comparing it with EU. However, let's look at Chef Boyard's original argument...


There are a few problems with this

1) You're assuming people will buy one or the other, based on determining which one is a better game, as if somehow computer games are like cars where a person will choose one over the other. This is not generally the way computer games are bought.

Arguing over which is a better game is a perfectly OK thing to do, but suggesting that CK make changes that will most probably result in a worse game because it is somehow threatened by MTW isn't the best way to argue the point. If you genuinely think extending the timeframe will improve the game, tell us why, and (in addition to giving us something to talk about) would be a much better way to argue your point.

You didn't read one of my posts in this thread, which states :

Of the total CK / MTW potential market, buyers fall into the following general categories :

1. People who will buy only MTW
2. People who will buy MTW and MAY buy CK if there is sufficient differences to justify the interest.
3. People who will buy CK and may buy MTW if there is sufficient difference to justify the interest.
4. People who will buy only CK.
5. People who will buy both, regardless.

I believe that MTW will sell many more copies than CK. I have no figures to justify this assumption. Be that as it may, this thread is ultimately directed at discussions which will increase the market potential of category #2. We must focus on enhancements to CK that add sufficient difference in scope and gameplay to increase that particular market segment.
 
Originally posted by Chef Boyard


I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the strat depth of both Shogun and the upcoming (due Sept 2002) MTW has been snobbishly overlooked. I also plan to buy both games. I would, however, like to see an expanded time frame for CK, which I think could be easily done with the EU engine. Expanding the time frame of MTW is NOT easily done precisely because of the detailed tactical engine and model (far more laborious and costly).

Well, let's give it a thought then... you suggest sometimes in 7th century. Let's look at the political map back then and political map in 1066. First... mostly pagan Germany, right? Not to mention Scandinavia. That leaves out a lot of nations you can play, for CK lets you play only christian lords.

Second- politcal situation. States have yet to be formed. Too soon for any stable political formations to occur. Yes, there are franks naturally, but i would really like to know how the game engine would handle Charlemagne and his conquest, not to mention downfall of the Frankish empire. Too hard of a task, i'd say.

Due to the backwater economy (every village or even house produced most of the goods they needed- natural economy or something (don't know exact term in English)), not the highest culture, not the most happiest life, political instability etc etc back then, it would be hard for EU engine to handle growth of the feudal system from nothing. Unless heavily scripting it- and that would take away all the pleasure of playing the game.

[offtopic] Btw, you ever thought of using the "search" function to dig up the old thread, reading all the posts there and if you still feel you have something to say about it, *bumping* the thread back to life? Instead of playing "Help! I'm oppressed here!" scheme? [/offtopic]

Now, CK vs MTW.
If MTW is a bit like Shougun (whitch it prolly is), then the game is a tactical game with a small strat sim attached to it. Can you say "diplomacy"? Basically, in Shogun it was a nice feature to be written on the box, but someone forgot to put it in the game. To me it seemed that these ambassadors were in the game because they could show some additional cool ninja movies that way. On the other hand, diplomacy in EU is almoust perfect and it seems to be even better in CK. That appeases me, for i always like to think of war as just extension of diplomacy.

Ahhh, nevermind that actually, most of my points have already been said in here. Nice one that checkers vs. chess :D

And pavlovs_dog is correct about the 12 "unique" factions and the total domination of Europe. Sheesh. Unique in what way: let me guess, English have longbowman etc etc. Basically, just every nation has one strong unit and that's it. Not much of a reason to call it "unique".

/me takes a long breath and wonders why he bothered to post all this just. But it would be a shame to delete all that hard word, so here you go.
 
Originally posted by Chef Boyard


1. Nothing I said was a direct public criticism of the moderators. It was a sarcastic treatment of their prior decision to lock a thread in which I suggested that the time scope of CK be expanded. The decision was apparently based on the idea that this suggestion or topic had already been discussed.

2. I've read all 17 rules about posting, they don't say anything about :

a) discussing the same subject more than once, or in a different thread, or

b) publicly criticising moderators for their decision to lock a thread.

However, warning noted.

The following refers:-


"11. If you have a problem with a Moderator then please contact that person by PM in the first instance. If the matter isnt resolved to your satisfaction then please contact myself or BiB. If the problem is with myself or BiB and you feel you cannot get satisfaction then please e-mail Patric on:pb@paradoxplaza.com Do *not* use the Public Fora for the purpose of arguing with the Moderators.


From time to time Posts will be deleted/moved and threads will be moved/split/combined. This is at the discretion of the Moderator concerned and will be done for a reason.
You wil not normally be notified why this has been done. The Moderators do not have the time to contact everyone involved to explain. It will usually involve one or more of the reasons above."


It doesnt matter how you dice the words - the intention to defy the authority of the Moderators was perceived to be there by myself and others.
This is a Private Board and posting here is a privilege and *not* a right. No member is, or ever will be, bigger than the Board Administration. It must be that way for the sake of forum discipline and it has worked well for quite a time now.
You are *still* contravening rule 11 by continuing this on the public fora.
I am banning you for 3 days in order that you may rethink your posting strategy.

Thank you for your attention.
 
I think both games are going to be interesting. I don't think they are particularly similar, though. If both of them improve on their previous games it going to be fun to enjoy both of them. Shogun can be finished quickly, EU2 can't be. Both of them had weak AIs. EU2 has more replayability than Shogun did, but the tactical engine Shogun used was lots of fun, even if the AI usually fell into my traps rather easily. Without the Tactical engine the game is not as interesting as EU2 though.
 
Chef Boyard:

For atempting to register whilst banned your ban is extended to 7 days.
Any further attempt will result in a permanent ban.

Thank you for your attention
 
Originally posted by Chef Boyard


The lack of tactical control in EU however, is very frustrating from time to time, particularly when you have a very large army that loses to a very small army.

I'm sure that's how Darius felt after Arbella:)

Seriously, to a certain extent, it is a matter of emphasis. For most players (not me, but most), a single game needs to have an end point in sight. Most players don't want a game that is fully detailed at every level, because it would take months/years to play through a single game. Some people are fine with that (in pre-computer days those games were called "monster games"), but most are not. So, generally a game has to either be a complex grand strategy game with simple combat, or a complex tactical game with a little strategy to put the battles in context (or a simple game at all levels, which used to be called "beer & pretzels" games).

Imagine, if you will, THIS medieval game:

Strategy module based on EU2, but the tech system and unit purchasing system fleshed out so that you develop particular weapons, armor, tactics, etc... and then design your own units using them (using something like the unit designer in Norm Kroger's "Age of Rifles" regarding their appearance).

Tactical battles played out as basically a computer port of one of the better (i.e. more realistically detailed) ancient/medieval miniatures rulesets, so that playing each tactical battle is exactly like playing a minatures battle except on a monitor instead of on a table top.

When you build castles & fortify cities, you get to design them as well.

Then give it the same time span as CK.

This would take forever to play. I'd buy it (assuming all the parts worked well), but the total number of copies sold would be small and the development costs high (so much to code & debug), so it would never make a profit. Maybe a shareware "labor of love", but never a commercial game.

So, there is room for both games like CK and games like MTW, depending on what the player wants to emphasis.
 
Originally posted by Avenger

Using your criteria, Checkers and Chess are identicle. Both games start with 24 pieces. ...........

Hey, I got a bonus - my chess set has 32 pieces!! Who says good things don't happen to good people.;)
 
Uglyduck deliniated the reasons in his post above. Moreover, the original name of this thread before it was changed was pretty infamatory, saying "Close or move this thread!" He was warned about his behavior (subtly by me, less subtly by UD), and chose to ignore these warnings, hence the result...
 
Originally posted by Sonny


Hey, I got a bonus - my chess set has 32 pieces!! Who says good things don't happen to good people.;)

You play courier chess or did you just get a few extra pieces?

EF
 
Who cares. I'll buy MTW just because I want to fight the battles. I liked Shogun for just that reason; strategically/diplomatically etc. its just not as deep as EU. But EU doesnt let me take to the field and crush my enemies, so I played both...hmmm...if only there were a game that combined the strategic scope of EU2 with the tactical control of MTW...of course, Id have to quit my job and get a divorce...

Regardless, at this point, I'll buy whichever comes out first! MTW has been "coming soon" for over a year, and CK's starting to feel the same way...at least MTW had some screenies up early; problem is they looked like sh*t. The map is ungodly horrible. No research time spent there, and I mean NONE. I expect CK map to look 100 times better...if I ever get to see it, that is...;)
 
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad


You play courier chess or did you just get a few extra pieces?

EF

:confused:

Every chess set has 32 pieces:

2 black rooks
2 white rooks
2 black knights
2 white knights
2 black bishops
2 white bishops
1 black queen
1 white queen
1 black king
1 white king
8 black pawns
8 white pawns

That equals 32 in my book...

*Geesh, I'm posting OT stuff on my own forum :rolleyes: :D *
 
Originally posted by hjarg


Now, CK vs MTW.
If MTW is a bit like Shougun (whitch it prolly is),

First assumption - wrong - it's not the same.

then the game is a tactical game with a small strat sim attached to it. Can you say "diplomacy"? Basically, in Shogun it was a nice feature to be written on the box, but someone forgot to put it in the game. To me it seemed that these ambassadors were in the game because they could show some additional cool ninja movies that way.

As I already posted - read above, diplomacy is very different. Royal marriages play a major role, alliances, trade and other treaties are enhanced, their is important diplomacy regarding the Pope and Crusades, etc.

And pavlovs_dog is correct about the 12 "unique" factions and the total domination of Europe.

Wrong again. From what I have read it is highly unlikely in MTW that you will end up conquering Europe. Instead, you have "Glorious Achievements" much like the mission of EU, that give you points for attainment.

Of course, in EU, I had England and ended up conquering Central Europe from the North Sea and Baltic to the Adriatic, and I had North America, South and East Africa, all of India, Indonesia, SE Asia, all the Pacific Islands, Korea and Siberia - and that was before I quit well before the end of the game. So how historical is that? :)

Sheesh. Unique in what way: let me guess, English have longbowman etc etc. Basically, just every nation has one strong unit and that's it. Not much of a reason to call it "unique".

And what makes for unique factions in EU or CK, praytell - a heraldic symbol and location on the map? :) And once again, you have it wrong. First off there are unique faction units, but also unique units limited to individual provinces. Another factor of uniqueness is religion - some are Catholic, others Orthodox and others Islamic. Another factor are geographic strengths - some are better set up for trade, others have more resources for internal development. Another factor is leaders - leaders are unique to each faction, and have their own set of attributes relating to their various abilities - military, administrative, trade, religion, etc.

me takes a long breath and wonders why he bothered to post all this just. But it would be a shame to delete all that hard word, so here you go. [/B]

I wonder too why you bothered to post all this since you have so little correct. I'd really wish people would criticize based upon facts and not assumptions. It definitely seems to me as if there is a bit of the "looking down the nose" at MTW as some sort of inferior game, which seems unnecessary to me - CK should be able to stand on it's own if it is any good. As I've said before, I expect both games to be great, and I am looking forward to both of them.

Grifman